of circumstances; and could any man are such advocates. But there are now fairly say that the conduct of ministers charges exhibited against me. I am acwas the cause of it? He lamented the cused of not having at first stated the warmth of Mr. Fox, who had spoken upon danger of the delay of which I now comthis matter on a former occasion, in a plain. I beg the House to consider this manner that he should never forget. charge. Had I at first stated that I apEven that right hon. gentleman said nothing prehended that would happen which has at first of the necessity of an act of parlia- actually happened, would not gentlemen ment, nor had he expressed any appre- on the other side have said, that every hension of a fresh mutiny; there was no prediction of mine had had a considerable appearance of it; so far from that, when share in causing the event? Mark the his majesty's gracious pardon went impregnable defence of the minister. down on the 28th of April, the fleet Here if you state your opinion of the neunder lord Bridport, wanted to sail, and if cessity of expeditious measures, and the the wind had been easterly, they would at danger of delay, you are said by your this moment have been blocking up the statement to cause the mischief which harbour of Brest. The accidents of mis- might have been avoided if you had rerepresentation had produced alarming con-mained silent. But, having remained sisequences, but from all that had happened, there was no evidence of any criminality in ministers. lent, you are told that you have no right to complain in consequence of what has happened, for that you yourself did not Mr. Fox said:-I never in my life was foresee it, because you did not express more convinced of the propriety of a mo- your apprehension of danger. Let us tion than I am of that which is now benow apply to facts. The news of the fore the House. The chancellor of the discontents in the fleet arrived in London exchequer appeared to my hon. friend to on the Monday morning. I happened to be chiefly guilty; but seeing that there arrive in the afternoon of the same day. were no documents to prove that the guilt Uninformed as I then was, I thought that attached exclusively to him, the censure we should have before us the transactions is proposed to be voted against ministers with all possible speed. In answer to a at large, as being concerned in that delay question, I was told that communication which occasioned the disasters which have would be made with all possible speed. happened to the fleet. With regard to Should not I have been a caviller to have the propriety of this, I wish those who said more at that time? In a few days I oppose it would state specifically the mis- did state that it appeared to me to be imchief which it will do: hitherto they have portant that some measure should be only talked of that mischief in general speedily taken.-The whole of the questerms. Public discussion is the best se- tion divides itself into two parts; first, curity for public welfare, and for the Whether there was any cause for extraorsafety of every good government. That dinary expedition in providing a remedy energy which is to be had from secrecy for the evil? for, if there was not, the stands upon the authority of but a few, whole of my hon. friend's motion falls at and they have neither been the wisest nor once. Ministers have contended this, the best, but those who, from age to age, and have acted as if they thought there have endeavoured to enslave mankind. I was no cause for extraordinary expedisay this generally. But to come to the tion; in which they differ, I believe, from subject now before us, and to apply these every man in the country. I contend general principles to the facts that have that if, contrary to the specific facts, appeared. When this mutiny first broke there had not happened any mischief, still out, was the subject debated in this delay was criminal; because it was highly House? No. It was passed by in silence; probable delay would occasion mischief. and those gentlemen who are so ena- They should have taken the moment of moured with secrecy had the complete peace and tranquillity at Portsmouth to advantage of it, as much so as could have satisfy the seamen. They must have been desired by any absolute government; been ridiculously sanguine if they exfor however we may deplore what has pected that the seamen were not likely to happened, and may wish that better mea-be alarmed at the delay which took place. sures had been adopted, yet still it must be allowed that ministers have had all the advantage of the secrecy for which they It has been said, that we have not proved that the evil we complain of was owing exclusively to the delay of ministers. It dered as a negotiation in which there were certain stipulations. No man can be satisfied in a negotiation until the stipula tions of it are performed. Why, then, I ask, if it was not essential for the public benefit, that this negotiation should be made as short as possible? Has that been done? If you tell me this was only a promise, that time must be taken to perform it, and that the seamen ought to have been satisfied that it would be fulfilled, I answer, that a promise is, in its nature, an incomplete act, and the longer you are give for doubting your sincerity. Delay, therefore, upon this occasion, considering all the circumstances, amounts to guilt on the part of ministers. But it is said, ministers were sincere. I never doubted it. I never thought of making any accusation against them that they did not intend to make good their promise to the seamen. What I complain of is, that they delayed the performance of that promise unnecessarily; in consequence of which some of the best blood of this country has been spilt. Then comes the general answer, is true we have no documents to this effect, but the fact is notorious. I ask what is the cause of our being in a state of comparative rejoicing this day? Is it not to the measures which have taken place in parliament? Certainly it is Why, then, I ask if the case be so, is not that a proof that the want of these measures was the cause of the evil? This I state without entering into the question whether the representations are true or false to any certain extent. Ministers say that the evils are owing to misrepresentations of what happened in ano-in performing it, the more reason do you ther place. Here let us pause. Take it for granted, for the sake of the argument, and for that only, that there have been gross misrepresentations. Does any man believe there is a difficulty in finding out the remedy for such gross misrepresentation? Expedition on the part of ministers was the only remedy. Had they done their duty by bringing forward the act of parliament, the effects of misrepresentation would have been comparatively innocent. It is supposed that persons of great authority said in another place, they did not know they should have any orders Ministers cannot be guilty of any crime from his majesty to make any communication. That we all know in parliament to be correct in point of form, considering the place in which it was spoken, because it is in this House that the measure must originate. This is another signal instance of the folly of ministers, for they must know what effect this would have on the uninformed. The minister talks of misrepresentation, and the effect of it. Was he ignorant of that effect? He who caused the Habeas Corpus act to be suspended, must surely be aware of the possibility of there being Jacobins, as he has called them, in this country, who would be ready to misrepresent his intentions. I think there are not in this country a sufficient number of such persons to make us shake in our determination to adhere to the constitution, but although I do not think there are enough to do that, yet I think there may be enough to distribute a hand-bill. This he must know as well as any man. Then I ask, was he not criminally guilty in neg. lecting to do that which would render vain all such attempts? There is another view in which this important question may be considered. I am not going to give any opinion on the negotiation between the delegates of the fleet and the Admiralty, at Portsmouth; but that measure leving taken place, it ought to be consi upon this occasion; what interest have they in being so?" I know not what interest any men can have in guilt. I know not what interests any ministers can have in being bad ministers; and yet we know that men have been guilty, and that ministers have been bad ministers; that they have appeared in this world, and I am afraid will continue to appear, and unless there is some controlling power exercised over them, they will continue to do as they have done-much mischief to mankind. I say that ministers have discovered an incapacity which renders them quite unfit to manage the affairs of this country, and which they will ruin unless this House interposes its authority. Will any gentleman opposite deny this? That ministers have heaped upon this country misfortune upon misfortune, that they have committed blunder upon blunder, and that they have very nearly accomplished the ruin of this country? There are disasters and disgraces which, after a long succession, destroy the faculties of the human mind. I take that to be the case of the minister. He is, to use a vulgar expression, "beat blind." That is now his only excuse, his only apology. Who but a man who had been so disgraced, could have been blind to the consequences of the delay of which he [514 has been guilty upon this occasion? I remorse on their own account. Notwitknow I am accused of speaking with too standing what might be insinuated to the much warmth upon many subjects; all I contrary, no man breathing had reason to can say in answer to that charge is, that I doubt, that when the flee: dropped down feel for the situation of this country with to St. Helen's, the mutiny was completely warmth, and I speak from feelings, of over, and the seamen satisfied with the which I think no man ought to be asham- concessions which had been made to ed. Look at what has been done in point them. Was it fair then to argue, that of fact in this business. I stated formerly, ministers ought to have suspected that that on the 23rd of April a letter arrived would happen which no man in the kingfrom Portsmouth. The minister states it dom could possibly foresee? If the right to be the 24th. He states, that in one hon. gentleman really thought there was day the memorial was made for the lords of so much danger in what he called an exthe Admiralty, and here the minister is traordinary delay, though he might not correct literally rather than substantially, be inclined to hold communication with because the news was known early in the his majesty's ministers upon every occamorning but it was not presented till sion, he could not think it would have the 26th, and the order in council was been very improper for him to have not issued until the 3rd of May. Here is given them a hint of what he knew or a delay of seven days upon points of form what he suspected. It was plain which did not require the delay of as the right hon. gentleman did not do this many hours. The delay in all is full four- because he thought the danger was over. teen days. Reflect on the circumstances The right hon. gentleman had said that that have happened, and then say whe- there were alarms in the country of the ther or no you think that delay ciriminal? danger of a French party, and he had But, it seems, this was all matter of added that as ministers were convinced that chance; for the fleet might have sailed this party did exist in the country, they before the last disturbance took place, ought to have been on their guard, lest had it met with a fair wind. Suppose they should again sow the seeds of disthis be granted; then I ask, ought not content on board the fleet. He believed ministers to provide against chances? there were many persons of that descripHad they done so, they might have con- tion in the country; but as he had been verted into a blessing that interposition of often blamed for stating that there were any Providence which, under other circum- such persons in the kingdom, he could stances, would have been considered as a not help being surprised that ministers disadvantage, by retarding the operations should now be accused of not guarding of the fleet. By this the evils would have sufficiently against them. He was ready been avoided, and the sailors completely to confess, that he had experienced great satisfied. But if they had sailed, they satisfaction from a conviction that the seawould have sailed without having been men were not infected with Jacobinism. satisfied; and what would have been the In the moments of the greatest exaspeeffect of insinuations to them of your insin- ration they had declared, that they would cerity in that situation, I will not dwell not suffer the Crown of England to be upon. I do not know how far this busi-imposed upon, nor the glory of the British ness may be said even now to be settled. We ought to know, what has been granted of what was asked, and what denied. The public have a right to know these facts, because on them depends the question of our future security. We should, therefore, show our vigilance, by marking the conduct of ministers with our censure. Mr. Secretary Dundas said, that the transaction which had given rise to the present discussion, was one which had given the most poignant concern to his majesty's ministers; but though they deeply regretted that it should have happened, yet that regret was not mixed with any [VOL, XXXIII.] fleet to be tarnished. He firmly believed, if any attempt had been made to detach them from those principles of loyalty which had always distinguished British seamen, they would not have yielded to any such attempt. He believed even now, that they would regard all attempts of that kind with indignation; but no attack of that kind had then been made upon them. Some persons, however, for whom he could not find a name sufficiently descriptive of their wickedness, soon sought to mislead them. The moment the question of the seamen's pay and provisions were settled, and his majesty's most gracious pardon granted to them, these persons [ L censure of the House. On the other hand, if every thing the seamen had demanded was granted to them by the Admiralty, he was ready to admit that ministers might suppose there was no reason to apprehend that new dis contents would arise in consequence of the business not having been laid before parliament. If he could be convinced the latter was the real situation of the case, he should think himself bound to vote against the motion. Mr. Pitt said, that more was at one time demanded by the seamen, than that upon the granting of which they returned to their duty. YEAS Tellers. Mr. Whitbread :} 63 endeavoured to persuade them that the pardon was a forgery. When misrepresentations on what had passed on this subject in another place had been circulated abroad, their mode of attack was changed. The seamen were then told, that parliament meant to betray them. Before this malicious falsehood, was circulated amongst them, they had entertained no jealousy, because there was no ground for it. But did the right hon. gentleman mean to say, that some such event as that which had unhappily occurred, might not have taken place if the business had been brought before parliament sooner? Was the right hon. gentleman certain that the same diabolical tongues would not have invented Lord George Cavendish said, that nosome other story, calculated to promote body could have more respect than he for that confusion which they desired? It the noble lord at the head of the Admimust, however, give the greatest satisfac- ralty, and he believed that no blame attion to the House to learn, that when the tached to him in the present instance; resolution voted on Monday last was sent but there was certainly a criminal neglect down to Portsmouth, favourable sypmtoms in ministers not fulfilling the stipulations of a return to duty appeared among the which had been made by the board of seamen. This was the natural conse- Admiralty at Portsmouth: quence of their discovering that they had The House divided: been imposed upon; and he trusted that this disposition would continue, and that all differences would be finally adjusted when they should learn that the House had so completely fulfilled all that had Nors been promised to them. It could not, however, be denied, that the seamen were satisfied with the grants of the Admiralty. The greatest proof of their satisfaction was, that they immediately acted upon it, by returning to their duty. It was therefore in vain to argue that the second mutiny was occasioned by any neglect of administration. No man could tell whether that unhappy affair might not have happened under very different circumstances; at the same time he was ready to allow, that if any suggestion had been made to his majesty's ministers, of danger to be apprehended from delaying the measure so often alluded to, they deserved censure; but in fact, this danger never entered into the imagination of any man. Under all these circumstances he was convinced the House would not agree to the motion. Mr. Curwen wished to know whether the seamen had demanded more than was granted to them by the Admiralty? If they had demanded more than was granted to them, and any disaffection remained on that occasion, ministers could not have been too expeditious in ratifying all that had been stipulated they should obtain. Any delayin this case certainly deserved the So it passed in the negative. 237 Debate on the Duke of Bedford's Motion relative to the Advances made by the Bank to Government.] May 15. The Duke of Bedford reminded their lordships that they were this day summoned to take into consideration the Report of the Secret Committee on the Order of Council of the 26th of February last, prohibiting the Bank from paying their notes in specie. It became incumbent upon their lordships to take that report into consideration, and to found some resolutions upon it, as their committee had not drawn any conclusion from the evidence laid before them. As he was the person who had moved for the appointment of that committee, he considered it his duty to propose these resolutions; for if their lordships did not express a decided disapprobation of the conduct which government had pursued they would implicate the character of that House, and of the nation. When he first read the order of council ascribing the drain of cash from * For a Copy of the Report, see p. 449. stated, that he had had conferences with the chancellor of the exchequer, as deputy governor of the Bank, in which representations were made to him on the subject of foreign loans, or remittances; and on the danger of continuing the advances made by the Bank to government. Mr. Bosanquet stated, that if the advances of the Bank to government had been paid off, or greatly diminished, it would have enabled the Bank to regulate at their discretion the amount of their notes in circulation, and would have diminished the necessity for issuing the order of council: he concluded from the answers of the chancellor of the exchequer, that no doubt could be entertained that he was fully aware of the the Bank, which rendered it necessary to prohibit the payment of their notes in specie, to an unfounded alarm of invasion, he much doubted the truth of the allegation. For if an unexpected run upon the Bank had been occasioned to that extent by the alarm of invasion, it appeared strange to him that that run had not taken place at the opening of the session, when danger of invasion was so strongly inculcated upon the minds of the people; but if he was lead to doubt of the truth of the allegation when the order of council first appeared, those doubts were confirmed when he found that the committee appointed by ballot to inquire into the causes which produced it, was composed not only of the zealous supporters of minis-apprehensions of the bank directors, arising ters, but of members of that very cabinet upon whose conduct they were appointed to decide. When he found this mockery of inquiry carried into practice in a case where, if the measure which was to be investigated was pronounced to have been injurious and impolitic, the authors of it would have been impeached; and when he recollected the various instances of incapacity and duplicity by which the present administration was marked, he conceived that the real cause of the order | in council was very different from the pretended one. Impressed with these sentiments, he had thought it his duty to move for another committee, with more extended powers. This ministers did not think proper to deny; but the committee was composed, as before, of their own supporters. He scarcely supposed that a committee so formed was likely to bring to light the true causes which produced the order in council. But on this point he was fortunately disappointed; the committee having had to examine men of the first respectability, all of whom coincided in sentiment, and having had to inspect written documents which left not a shadow of doubt respecting the inferences which ought to be drawn from them. He was disposed to doubt the truth of the matter contained in the order of council from the beginning. Those doubts had been confirmed by the investigation of the committee. Mr. Giles had stated, that he had made frequent representations, in the capacity of governor of the Bank, to the chancellor of the exchequer, all of which tended to persuade him of the danger to the Bank from the diminution of its specie, in consequence of foreign remittances and advances to government. Mr. Raikes from the frequent advances which were |