J. C. Melvill, Esq. 3d May 1852. 119. Can you state the number of tons? I have not that, but there is no difficulty in giving it. 120. Have not the salt duties in Bombay greatly increased in the last 10 years, much more than at the other Presidencies? The proceeds from the salt duty at Bombay have greatly increased. 121. In a much greater proportion than in Bengal and at Madras? There has been a considerable increase; the revenue from salt at Bombay is about 200,000l. a year. 122. It is much cheaper in Bombay than in Bengal? Much cheaper. 123. Will you proceed to the next item of receipt? The next item is opium; in the first period the receipts from opium averaged 1,263,4627. per annum; in the next period only 746,2387.; that was the time of the China war; in the third period, 2,012,354l.; in the fourth, 2,560,693l., and the estimate for the year 1850-51, is 2,700,6621. 124. Does that include the sum raised by passes at Bombay? Yes. 125. Can you state the amount of receipts from those passes in 1834, and in the last year? It was 13,77,425 rupees in 1834-35, and in 1850-51, the estimated amount is 79,77,200 rupees, in the last two years the amount has been largely increased; the only other item of receipt which it seems desirable to mention in this classification is stamps; in the first period that is 330,7697.; in the second, 373,5347.; in the third, 385,904/.; in the fourth, 407,482 l., and the estimate is 420,495 l. Now, to complete the review of the receipts for the whole 16 years, I ought to add, that within that period there was received 159,867 l. under the treaty of Gwalior; 576,137 l. from the late government of Lahore, and also 652,1957. from Golab Sing, under the treaty. 126. Will you now state the charges for the same periods? The average charges are, first, civil and political charges, including provincial battalions, in the first period, 1,314,348/.; in the second, 1,799,024 i.; in the third, 1,721,312.; in the fourth, 1,918,613 l.; and the estimate, 1,993,989 l. Then the judicial charges, including the police, are in the first period, 1,559,050l. ; in the second, 1,603,1327.; in the third, 1,678,740 l.; in the fourth, 1,797,290 l.; and the estimate is, 2,048,846 l. 127. What is the reason for the great rise in the estimate? I am not prepared at this moment to give a particular explanation of that. There has been an increase of territory. The next charges form the great item of military and war charges: the military charges of all India for the first four years, were, on the average, 6,743,7147. per annum. In the next period of four years they were, including the war charges, 8,216,2167. per annum. In the third period they were 9,584,177 1. In the fourth period they were 10,290,338 l.; and the estimate is, 9,991,8581. Now, this increase of military expenditure amounts, for the whole period, to an aggregate of 30,435,356 l. In other words, if the military charges had remained as they were in the first four years of the present system, we should have spent, under that one head, 30,435,356 l. less than we have. 128. That is, if there had been no war? Then for the marine: in the first period, the charges were 183,5257.; in the second period, 231,476 l.; in the third period, 227,360.; in the fourth period, 269,459 l.; and the estimate is 338,411 ĺ. 129. That appears to be extremely different from a printed statement which has been laid before the Committee? My averages are founded on the net charges, deducting the receipts. The statement referred to gives the gross charges, and this causes the apparent difference. 130. What receipts are there? Pilotage is one of them; the receipts are, upon the average, upwards of 100,000l. a year. 131. Does 131. Does the cost of Europe stores include the building of vessels ? No; that is stated separately. I have no doubt that one difference between the two statements is that which I have mentioned, that in the one case, we state it net, first of all stating the gross charges, and then the receipts, and so bringing it to a net amount. The only remaining item in the Indian account, is the interest upon the registered debt of India; in the first period, it is 1,535,1107.; in the second, 1,451,7407.; in the third, 1,740,669/; in the fourth, 1,991,320l.; and the estimate is 2,201,105/. Then there are the home charges: these charges comprehend stores, of which the amount, in the first period, is 223,1897.; in the second, 290,8467.; in the third, 373,005/.; in the fourth, 497,4107.; and the estimate is 364,386. 132. Are those stores military or naval stores? Yes. 133. Then some of those might be classed under other heads? When issued in India, the cost would be charged to the proper department. 134. They would go to swell the amount of military or naval expenditure? Yes. 135. Are they called home charges, because they are paid in England? Yes. Besides stores, the amount of the home charges, in the first period, was 1,983,027 l. per annum; in the second, 2,372,902 l.; in the third, 2,359,881.; in the fourth, 2.464,827 l.; and the estimate is 2,352,800 l. This includes the interest on the home bond debt. 136. Could not the stores be allotted to the several heads to which they belong? They cannot be allotted till they are issued in India, when the Indian books contain entries of their allotment to the several departments. 137. Would it not be convenient, if you were to allot them to the several departments to which they properly belong? The account comes down to the latest period, and we do not know till three or four years have elapsed, what stores have been issued, and what remain in store. 138. What is included in this last item? I have already enumerated most of the items of home charge; they include the dividend to the proprietors, the interest on the home bond debt, the military expenses in this country of the Queen's and the Company's troops, the charges of the Home Establishments, the Board of Control and the Court of Directors, of the annuitants and pensioners, the expenses of Haileybury and Addiscombe, Her Majesty's Mission to the Court of Persia, and absentee allowances to civil servants, and various other items. 139. Looking at the general abstract of the revenue and the charges of India, for the years comprised in the accounts which have been prepared for the Committee, namely, 1845-46, 1846-47, and 1847-48, it appears that 1,911,791 l. is stated as the deficiency? In 1847-48, the deficiency amounted to 1,911,186 l. 140. Then the estimate is taken separately? The estimate is for another year, 1850-51. It will be found that this account, from which I have drawn my averages, entirely corresponds with the accounts annually presented to Parliament. 141. Can you give the Committee a statement of the progress and present amount of the debt of India? Here is an account, which has already been ordered by the House of Lords, which shows the transactions connected with the Indian debt, from 1834 to the latest period; and it shows that the debt amounted on the 30th of April 1834, including the bond debt, to 38,986,720 l., and on the 30th of April 1850, to 50,807,564 l.; this is after applying 8,122,530 l. of the commercial assets to the discharge of the Indian debt, and 1,788,525 l., from the same source, to discharge the home bond debt. J. C. Melvill, Esq. 3d May 1852, J. C. Melvill, Esq. 3d May 1852. 142. Was it a large portion of the debt of India which was paid off, that was at six per cent.? It was between five and six millions sterling. 143. Was there not a further advantage in paying off these debts; were they not remittable debts, most of them? They were; and the arrangement that was made was to invite the holders of the remitted debt to accept a lower rate of interest, viz. 5 per cent., and to alter, in a degree, the conditions upon which it was ultimately remittable to England, without taking away altogether that privilege from the holders. 144. In what position does the debt now stand as to its being remittable or not? The sum that was transferred to the 5 per cent. debt, under this arrangement, was 3,326,000 l., which remains outstanding, and forms what we call the transfer loan, having the privilege of transfer to this country at the will of the holder; the condition is, that no part of this loan shall be paid off before the 22d of April 1854, when the present period expires, and that, whenever redeemed, a previous notice of 15 months shall be given by public advertisement, which notice may be issued at any time after the 21st of January 1853, and payment is then to be made, at the option of the creditors, either in cash in India, or by bills upon England at twelve months date, and at 2 s. 1 d. the sicca rupee. 145. In what mode is the Indian debt contracted? When the Government wants money, it advertises that the Treasury is open to receive money upon loan, at certain rates specified in the advertisement, and upon the conditions there contained; and so long as the loan remains open, parties are admitted to make what payments they please, and to receive what are called loan notes in acknowledgment. 146. To any amount, great or small? To any amount. 147. There has been a very considerable increase in the debt in the last period, amounting to about 20,000,000 l.? Altogether, if allowance is made for the assets applied, the increase will amount to upwards of 20,000,000 l. 148. What is the difference in the sum total of interest paid upon that debt? The interest upon the debt has increased from 1,535,000l. to 2,201,000 l. 149. Is the money borrowed in India or in England? The money raised on loan is all raised in India; the East India Company have no power to raise any money in this country except upon bond. 150. At what rate of interest do the Indian Government borrow, as compared with the English Government? I should think that the rate of interest on government loans in India is 11⁄2 per cent. higher than in England. 151. At present, the 5 per cent. loan is not open ? The 5 per cent. loan has been closed; the 4 per cent. loan is open, but it is unproductive. 152. What is the discount upon it at present? It is very considerable. 153. Is it as much as eight or ten rupees? it is 10 per cent. 154. Therefore, the Governor-general of India at the present time, in commencing a war with Ava, has no resources but such as are furnished by the revenues of the country? He has a very large cash balance, I am happy to say. 155. But he has no resources from loan at the present moment? None. 156. What 156. What is the cash balance: J. C. Melvill, Esq. The cash balance, according to the latest accounts, is upwards of 12,000,000l. It is diffused over a vast extent of territory. 157. You mentioned that you were about to present some of the papers today; when do you think the others will be presented? I think most of them will be presented very quickly. Some of them are rather lengthy but I should think the majority of them will be presented this week. 158. In the Financial Letter of the Court of Directors of the 25th of October 1848, there is the following statement in the 35th paragraph: "In 1843-44 you obtained payment from the Gwalior Durbar of 3,20,200 rupees, in part of compensation for losses sustained during and in consequence of the late hostilities' with that State. The expenditure assumed in the treaty on that account was five lacs; but we do not find that any payment was obtained beyond the sum of 3,20,220 already stated, excepting the 10 lacs also stipulated to be paid on account of the war charges." Then, at the foot of the page there is this, under the head of "Gwalior:" " Extraordinary Civil Receipt, 3,20,220 rupees; military receipt, 10,00,000 rupees, making 13,20,200 rupees. Now, when this letter was written, did it not occur to those who had to frame it to refer to the treaty, to see how far the payments under the treaty corresponded with this statement which they were making of the payments required by the treaty, those payments being five lacs in compensation for losses (that is, provided the losses were found to amount to that sum), 10 lacs already due under the head of Tribute, one lac on account of expenses incurred for Baeza Bhaee, and 10 lacs for war charges, making a total sum of 26 lacs. Did it not occur to the Court of Directors to direct inquiry to be made into that matter, because it would appear that not only had there been a deficient sum paid under one head, but that a sum of 110,000l. which was stipulated to be paid by the treaty, had not been paid at all? I apprehend, that if there has been any failure in that respect on the part of the Gwalior government. it has been noticed in the political department, and not in the financial; I can tell your Lordships the whole of the sums that we have stated in this account as receipts from Gwalior; we received, in 1843-44, from the Gwalior government, on account of the war charges, and for compensation for losses sustained during and in consequence of the late hostilities at Gwalior, under the 5th Article of the Treaty, 123,771 l.; and we received, on the same account, in 1848-49, 8,648 l.; and, in 1849-50, 27,748 l.; those are all the entries that appear in our statements under that head, 66 159. Why is this sum of 3,20,220 rupees entered at the foot of this paper as an extraordinary civil receipt," was it not altogether a war receipt in compensation for losses sustained by the people of the enemy P I should think we have followed the mode of statement adopted in India in that respect. 160. It is stated in the 40th paragraph "The judicial charges also exhibit an increase of no less than 16,30,235 rupees between the years 1838-39 and 1845-46, a large portion of which we perceive arises from the formation of a military police force in the North-west Provinces;" how is it possible that the formation of four battalions, which is the whole extent of the force which is substituted for the civil police, at a somewhat higher rate of pay, can possibly amount to so large a sum as 16 lacs of rupees? Before I attempt to explain that, I must look into the account; a large item of the judicial charge is the expense of police. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned till Thursday next, 3d May 1852. |