those provisions which the memorialists consider as pledges that the whole Hindoo law shall be for ever enforced.

25. The supposed pledge is contained in the 53d section of the Charter Act. The memorialists have quoted a portion only of that section; it is proper to quote the whole: "And whereas it is expedient that, subject to such special arrangements as local circumstances may require, a general system of judicial establishments and police, to which all persons whatsoever, as well Europeans as natives, may be subject, should be established in the said territories at an early period, and that such laws as may be applicable in common to all classes of the inhabitants of the said territories, due regard being had to the rights, feelings, and peculiar usages of the people, should be enacted, and that all laws and customs having the force of law within the same territories should be ascertained and consolidated, and, as occasion may require, amended; be it therefore enacted, that the said Governorgeneral of India in Council shall, as soon as conveniently may be after the passing of this Act, issue a commission, and from time to time commissions, to such persons as the said Court of Directors, with the approbation of the said Board of Commissioners, shall recommend for that purpose, and to such other persons, if necessary, as the said Governor-general in Council shall think fit, all such persons, not exceeding in the whole at any one time five in number, and to be styled 'The Indian Law Commissioners,' with all such powers as shall be necessary for the purposes hereinafter mentioned; and the said Commissioners shall fully inquire into the jurisdiction, powers and rules of the existing courts of justice and police establishments in the said territories, and all existing forms of judicial procedure, and into the nature and operation of all laws, whether civil or criminal, written or customary, prevailing and in force in any part of the said territories, and whereto any inhabitants of the said territories, whether European or others, are now subject; and the said Commissioners shall from time to time make reports, in which they shall fully set forth the result of their said inquiries, and shall from time to time suggest such alterations as may in their opinion be beneficially made in the said courts of justice and police establishments, forms of judicial procedure and laws, due regard being had to the distinction of castes, difference of religion, and the manners and opinions prevailing among different races, and in different parts of the said territories."

26. The memorialists consider the sections of the Lex Loci Act, against which they remonstrate, so completely at variance with this section of the Charter Act, that they think the Law Commission are not competent to propose such a law, and are prohibited from doing so by the Charter, from which its own existence and legislative powers are derived.

27. So far is this section from being a pledge that the laws existing in the country shall not be altered, that it is, on the contrary, an announcement that the Legislature contemplated the alteration and amendment of them. It lays down, indeed, the principles which are to control and limit any proposed alterations; and the real question, therefore, is, whether the enactments in question infringe those principles..

28. It is expedient, says the Charter Act, that "such laws as may be applicable in common to all classes of the inhabitants of the said territories, due regard being had to the rights, feelings, and peculiar usages of the people, should be enacted." And again, “The Law Commissioners shall from time to time suggest such alterations as may, in their opinion, be beneficially made in the said courts of justice and police establishments, forms of judicial procedure and laws, due regard being had to the distinction of castes, difference of religion, and the manners and opinions prevailing among different races and in different parts of the said territories."

29. A law which provides that, in a country where several different religions prevail, no man, to whichever of those religions he may belong, shall suffer loss of rights or property, because his conscience impels him to adopt another, is "a law applicable in common to all classes of the inhabitants of the said territories;" and the Law Commissioners, in suggesting such a law, have shown "due regard to the difference of religion, and the manners and opinions prevailing among different races, and in different parts of the said territories." 30. The memorialists say that the 12th clause will, if actually passed, annul the Hindoo law of inheritance. If this were true, it would follow that the whole Hindoo law of inheritance consists of provisions for punishing freedom of conscience, and the Government might feel bound to annul it. But the Hindoo law of inheritance is far from being the unjust and barbarous thing here implied, and the Government can conscientiously continue to enforce the far greater part of its rules.

31. The memorialists speak also of the proposed law as one which would "compel the relations of the convert to reward his apostacy." If this were a correct description, the law would be justly open to objection. The law should provide neither reward nor punishment for a change of religious opinion. It should leave every man to the dictates of his understanding and his conscience, unbiassed by any motive of interest; and that is what the proposed law does.

32. The memorialists say, in para. 10, "that the Law Commission, in thus summarily attempting an innovation, intended to deprive the Hindoo community of a national and legal right derived from their ancestors, and hitherto respected by their European rulers, affords strong cause of suspicion that such an innovation is only the prelude to others; that the security in person, property and religion, hitherto insured to native subjects, is in danger of being taken from them, and that the protection thus undermined in one instance may eventually be denied them altogether. The power which deprives them

C. H. Cameron,
Esq.

14th June 1852.

C. H. Cameron,
Esq.

14th June 1852.

of this privilege can do so by another; and the spoliation of one is an intimation that all are liable to be similarly swept away."

33. The principles of legislation, which have been stated in the course of this letter, ought to satisfy the memorialists that the apprehensions thus expressed are groundless; and although their law is not protected by a pledge that its provisions shall be enforced throughout all futurity, it is protected by the determination of the Government to preserve to the two great classes of its native subjects the rules under which they have lived, and to which they are attached, when these rules are not injurious to other classes.

34. With regard to the objections made by the memorialists to the wording of the sections in question, they will be taken into consideration, together with objections of the same kind made from other quarters, before the law is passed. The Government is always glad to receive and to attend to suggestions intended to assist it in the endeavour to express its laws with all possible clearness and precision.

35. It is the intention of Government, for the more convenient arrangement of the new law, to remove the three sections from the Lex Loci Act, and to place them in a separate Act.

36. It may now be reasonably presumed that no other persons intend to offer objections against this draft than those who have already availed themselves of the opportunity afforded by the period of four months which has elapsed since the Act was read a first time, being one month beyond the time notified in the Gazette for its re-consideration. The Government, therefore, in framing this answer to the memorialists, has under its consideration, not only their Memorial, but the representations of all those who appear to take any active interest in the question to which it relates; and the confidence of the Government in the principles stated in this letter has not been at all shaken by any of those representations.

37. In conclusion, I am directed to state, that, although the Government is always desirous that the classes to be affected by its legislative measures should freely express their opinions upon the draft Acts which it publishes, yet it is a source of deep regret to the Governor-general in Council that, at a period when public opinion among a great part of the Hindoos has become in a high degree tolerant and enlightened, a Memorial founded upon doctrines of so opposite a character should have been presented by a respectable portion of that community.

Fort William, 24 May 1845.

I have, &c. (signed) G. A. BUSHBY, Secretary to the Government of India.

2359. Was there any reply received from the petitioners after that document had been communicated to them?

There was no reply received; there was another remonstrance of the same kind from some Hindoos at Calcutta, in reply to which we enclosed the answer that we had previously sent to the Madras Hindoos, stating that that contained our principles on the subject.

2360. Will you have the goodness to inform the Committee whether that Act was, in fact, carrying into effect what had been the previous practice, as well as the law, in the province of Bengal ?

Yes; that Act was extending what had previously been the law in the province of Bengal, out of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.

2361. For what period had that been in force?

It was in 1832 that Lord William Bentinck's Government passed the Regulation.

2362. Had that led, in the interval between its enforcement in 1832, and the remonstrance from Madras, to any inconvenient consequences in the province of Bengal?

I never heard of any.

2363. After the passing of the ler loci had been suspended, in the manner which you have described on a former occasion, at what period was the subsequent law of the three articles introduced, proposing to re-enact those provisions with respect to the property of Christian converts?

Legislative Consultations of the 2d of August 1845, I find to be the marginal note on the draft made by me.

2364. Are you aware of any remonstrance analogous to that from Madras, which had been previously addressed to the Government, having been repeated when those clauses were proposed as a separate measure?

I have no recollection of any such remonstrance; I never heard of the two I have mentioned.

any after

2365. Are

2365. Are you acquainted with the document now produced, purporting to be a memorial of certain Hindoo inhabitants of Bengal and its dependencies, to the Court of Directors of the East India Company, to repeal the Act 21 of 1850, intitled, "An Act to extend the Principles of Section 19 of the Bengal Code "? I never saw nor heard of such a document.

2366. Your evidence as to the appeal against the clauses applied to what occurred during your own stay in India?

To what occurred during my own stay in India; there were two remonstrances, one from Madras; the one to which we gave the answer I have put in, and another from the Dhurmah Shubha at Calcutta, which is an assembly of orthodox Hindoos, whose principal object is the conservation of Hindoo orthodoxy. We answered that by enclosing the answer we had previously sent to Madras, and stated, "The misconception of the memorialists concerning the existence of any stipulation on the part of the British Government of India with its native subjects, which would be infringed by the enactment of the sections above mentioned, has been fully discussed in the reply of the Governor-general in Council to the meeting at Madras: in the same letter the principles on which the Government acts in regard to religious toleration, and in regard to the administration by its courts of the Hindoo and Mahomedan law, are stated, and I am directed to transmit, for the information of the members of the Dhurmah Shubha, a copy of that reply." Those are the only two remonstrances which I ever heard of, and those were the two answers which were given.

2367. To neither of those answers was any reply made?

No reply was made to either of those answers.

2368. And no further consequences have arisen?

No further consequences; there was a great deal of discussion in the newspapers, but nothing further thanthat.

2369. Supposing a just cause of exception to arise with respect to property, so preserved to a Christian convert, by reason of its having any connexion with Hindoo religious feeling, would there be any difficulty in providing for that by a separate enactment, so as to allow civil property to remain, while ecclesiastical property passed away?

We did provide for it in our draft; we had an exception intended to cover such a case in the draft itself. What may have been in the Act as it passed, I cannot tell, because I never saw it; but the draft which I prepared before I left India, contained an exception intended to meet such a case as your Lordship suggests.

2370. Can you inform the Committee what are the provisions of the existing law in that respect?

I cannot.

2371. Will you upon paper give the Committee a sketch of the system of judicature which would now exist if the plans of the Law Commissioners had been carried out?

I have been drawing up such a sketch, and should be very glad to lay it before your Lordships.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

THOMAS CAMPBELL ROBERTSON, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows:

2372. WHEN did you first go to India?

I arrived in India in December 1806.

2373. When did you leave India?

I left it finally in March 1843.

2374. Will you state to the Committee generally the situations which you filled?

For the first eight years I was in subordinate judicial situations in Bengal. In the year 1816 I was acting judge and magistrate of the city of Patna; from the year, 1817 to 1823, which was a period of seven years, I was judge and magistrate of Cawnpore, in Upper India; from 18 24 to 1826 I was with the armies

C. H. Cameron,
Esq.

14th June 1852

T. C. Robertson,

Esq.

T. C. Robertson,
Esq.

14th June 1852.

in Arracan and Ava as political and civil commissioner; after that, I came home for four years, and returned again to India in 1830; then I held the Revenue and Police Commissionership of the district of Barelei, in Upper India, and after that I was Governor-general's agent in the North-Eastern frontier of Bengal, in Assam, and the other provinces on the North-Eastern frontier; then, for four years, I was in the Sudder Court of Calcutta, after which, I became a member of the Council, and remained in it from September 1838 to January 1840, when, at Lord Auckland's request, I left the Council, and went up to Agra as Lieutenant-governor, and there I remained till March 1843.

2375. The appointment of Lieutenant-governor of Agra is vested entirely in the hands of the Governor-general, is not it?

Entirely.

2376. What are his particular duties?

The general civil government of the country, with the entire patronage of every kind, except the Sudder Courts and Revenue Board, which require the confirmation of the Supreme Government.

2377. Was any objection ever taken to the recommendations which you made for appointments to the Sudder Court?

Never, that I remember.

2378. The Lieutenant-governor of Agra administers the province without any Council, does not he?

He has no Council.

2379. Is there any difference between the mode of administering the Upper Provinces and the Province of Bengal ?

No material difference; the same laws prevail throughout. There may be a difference sometimes in the mode of administration, from cases arising in the different provinces which are not under exactly the same regulations, such as the Province of Bundelcund and others.

2380. Is the settlement of the revenue managed in the same way in the two provinces ?

No; there is a considerable difference.

2381. Will you point out what the difference is?

The revenue system of the Lower Provinces proceeds upon the assumption of the permanent settlement, in Lord Cornwallis's time, being fixed and irreversible. The assessment of the Upper Provinces was quite open to revision, and was in process of revision while I was there. It has been continued since I came away for 30 years; the revenue is settled for 30 years.

2382. Is it a fixed payment upon the land?

A fixed payment.

2383. Can you suggest any alteration in the present relations between the Government of Agra and Bengal ?

None; it seems to me that their relative position is very well fixed. I do not see that the Governor of Agra requires any further power than he has.

2384. You were for two years a member of the Council, were not you?
I was.

2385. Does it appear to you that there would be any advantage in placing the Government of Bengal upon the same footing as the Government of Agra?

I think there would be this great advantage, that the Council might then move to other parts of the country, and not always be fixed in Calcutta, which I think often is objectionable. I think the Lieutenant-governor remaining constantly there, and having but one thing in view, and not being liable to change, would be also a great advantage.

2386. It would enable him to visit parts of the Province of Bengal?

He would acquire an interest in it, and a minute and detailed knowledge, which would be highly advantageous to the country.

2387. Which are quite beyond the power of the Governor-general?

The

The Governor-general has not power to attend to every thing that he pro- T. C. Robertson, fesses to attend to; he must leave many local matters to be attended to by others.

2388. Supposing such a change to take place, would it occur to you to leave the appointment of the Lieutenant-governor in the hands of the Governorgeneral?

Yes.

2389. Would you put the patronage upon the same footing?

I would put it upon the same footing the same footing as that of Agra. I think the Supreme Government ought to have a veto upon the appointments to the Sudder Courts and Board of Revenue.

2390. Practically, the Committee understand you to say you did not find inconvenience arise from the sort of understanding which now exists?

Not the slightest.

any

2391. Did you ever feel the want of a Council when you were Lieutenantgovernor?

No; I cannot say in my own experience I ever felt the inconvenience.

2392. Is the authority distributed in the same way among the various officers in the Judicial and Revenue Departments in the Upper Provinces and in the

Lower?

Exactly; there are the same grades throughout.

2393. Have you Commissioners of Revenue and Circuit in the Lower as well as in the Upper Provinces?

The Commissioners were not Commissioners of Circuit in my time, that is, if the term Circuit is meant to apply to criminal trials; the criminal trials were all held by the judge of a district. The Commissioners were Commissioners of Revenue and Police; there may have been an alteration within the last ten years.

2394. Had you any native judges presiding in the Courts of First Instance ? Many, and admirable judges they were.

2395. How did they administer their functions?

I think very well indeed, if properly looked after. It must be understood, in every case in India, that if the head of a district is remiss, things will go wrong; but the native judges, well looked after, that is, the appeals from them being taken up with reasonable rapidity, are very good judges indeed.

2396. Is that shown by a confidence in their decisions, or are appeals from them very numerous, and reversals frequent?

There is a disposition among the people to appeal at all times from every decision; but I think some of the native judges are very highly respected.

2397. Is any difficulty felt in conveying to them, in their administration of the law, a knowledge of any new Acts which may be passed regulating their proceedings?

They very quickly understand any new Act which is passed; they are quick of comprehension generally.

2398. In the Province with which you were connected were any steps taken to diffuse among the natives a knowledge of the laws which were passed by which their interests were affected?

The only steps were, that copies in the native languages of those laws, which particularly related to the administration of justice, were sent to the different subordinate judges.

2399. Did you find any difficulty in producing intelligible translations of those laws which were available among the judicial authorities?

No, not the ordinary laws; I have heard it said that some laws were drafted, which could hardly have been translated into the vernacular. For instance, Í have heard it said of the projected criminal code of the Indian Law Commission, that it would have proved very difficult to render into the common native languages. It was never brought into operation at all, and, therefore, the fact of whether it were really capable of translation easily, was not ascertained.

Esq.

14th June 1852.