abroad for education, now placed them for the purposes of instruction in these religious houses. Let these institutions gradually expire, the parents must lose the comfort and happiness of occasionally seeing their children; for they will then educate them in some foreign country, and the money now spent at home would be carried out of the kingdom. For his own part, he thought it better, if the legislature would interfere at all, to prohibit any new monastic associations, and not suffer those in existence to increase their numbers at any time beyond the present amount. Thus much upon the first branch of the bill; the second, which imposed farther restrictions upon Roman Catholic schools, was no less objectionable. He believed he might lay it down as a general principle, that the choice of education might safely be left with the parent. Was it not true that scarcely any parent could be found who would entrust his children to the tuition of any person of a different religious persuasion from himself? The bill, upon the whole, was most inexpedient and intolerant, and had been brought forward at a most unseasonable moment. Sir W. Scott admitted, that the charity and hospitality of the country had been enjoyed by the emigrants with great moderation and good conduct. The general statement of the institutions and their numbers, he believed to be correct; but with respect to the males, there was one fallacy which he wished to detect. These institutions were looked on as consisting of monks; whereas they were composed either of secular priests exclusively, or of secular priests and religieux, a distinct description of persons from those in the contemplation of the bill. With regard to these people, it was formerly, he believed, the general wish, that on the termination of the war they should return home; but it was the obscurity in which the arrival of that period was involved, that led to the present difficulty of legislating on the subject. If they were only to remain here two or three years, a very slight regulation, whatever their number, might be sufficient; but if they were to continue permanent, then they would obviously become proper subjects for legislation. Here, then, arose all the difficulty; for on what ground could it be ascertained that they would return in a few years? Were this objection removed, he did not see any on the ground of toleration. These institutions were not necessarily connected with the Roman Catholic religion, as it might subsist in its full force without them, and therefore they had nothing to do with toleration. If, then, they were not neces sarily connected with toleration, they were institutions which, in this Protestant country, should be discountenanced as unfriendly to its religion. Wherever situated, they had greatly the advantage, in point of numbers and compactness, over the parochial clergy, scattered over the country upon small livings; for such was their general description with respect to income, whatever might be said of their opulence. They, therefore, must maintain a very unequal contest against such societies; and unless he could bring himself to be of opinion that it was a matter of indifference to discourage the Protestant religion a little, he should never approve of the permanent establishment in this country. With regard to the Roman Catholic inhabitants themselves, he did not believe they wished it. In Roman Catholic countries, these societies had the law and public opinion on their side. Here they were both against them; and therefore they could not flourish in that state in which their sincere friends would wish to see them. He objected to the bill, because its provisions were permanent, whereas the subject might be transitory. If, however, these societies were not to be considered here in transitu, still he thought a very slight regulation, free from all oppression, would be sufficient. He would recommend that they should expire with the present generation, and be placed under the Alien act. To carry this into effect, it would be sufficient to transmit a list of their numbers to the bishop of their diocese. With regard to the part relating to schools, it was a subject of great importance. It had long struck him, that in a country where any man might take a large house, call it an academy, and collect a large school, without any proof of his morals or learning, the task of education might fall into hands in which it ought not to continue without the inspection of the legislature. In the present case this might be done through the medium of the bishop of the diocese. As to the number that had entered these societies for the sake of gratuitous education, it rested entirely on general assertion; and until a return should be made, the legislature had no rule to direct it. Under these circum- | there was a general cry against Catholics. stances, therefore, he should vote against He should be ashamed to join it if there the bill, first, because it went farther was. On the contrary he should join the than was necessary; and, secondly, be- hon. baronet in declaring that the Cathocause he thought a very short bill, con- lics of this country had justified the libetaining one or two provisions, would be ral policy regarding them, and shown sufficient. themselves worthy of every possible indulMr. Erskine professed himself to be a gence and favour; he looked forward, most zealous friend of toleration; yet he indeed, to the time when all differences could not forget the history of our law between Christians would be as a midupon the subject. Nothing, indeed, but night dream on the dawn of day. But its history could justify it; but when they wise policy discountenanced sudden alterwere viewed together, it would be a libel ations. The House ought well to mark upon the country too harshly to condemn how the nation had been compelled to act it. We ought to place ourselves in the in former times towards Catholics to supsituation of our ancestors at the time when port their religion and their freedom. We our statutes were framed, and to look at ought to recollect that the family upon the Catholic religion at the same periods, the throne sit upon it only by a solemn to arrive at a proper judgment upon so act of legislation and not by a strictly legal delicate a subject. Now, indeed, things hereditary descent; and we could not were changed, and corresponding changes therefore at once brush away all the dishad succeeded. When sir William Black-abilities which still remain in the body of stone wrote his excellent Commentaries, our laws; but as to the bill itself although the auspicious career of toleration had it took caution against the growth of Cascarcely begun amongst us, and its pro- tholic influence, it would, if passed into gress was only not obstructed by pious law, be an enabling statute, as without it frauds in the administration of the laws, these foreign Catholics would be subject and politic winkings at them in the minis- to severities from which they would now ters of the state. The severities of the be exempted. Monasteries since the Relaws were continued because it was thought formation were not English institutions : too early to abolish them and difficult to they could not be retired from view like make just discriminations; but they were Protestant establishments. The worship blunted in their execution by that good of their votaries was not only open to the sense and humanity which sooner or later magistrates, but to all who chose to be prein England, put every thing in its right sent, and if they barred their doors, they place. Our ancestors had they been living were subject to all the penalties of the anunder such new circumstances, would cient laws [Here he read a clause from an have pursued the same course; but in act of parliament to establish this]. As to their times great difficulties surrounded the evil of allowing those monastic societies them, and dangerous snares were in their to spring up amongst us from the influence paths. The first statute which deserved which might arise from their numbers and the name of toleration, was sir George examples in the education of children, Saville's act, an act worthy of his name; he apprehended nothing on those acbut we all remembered the uproar it pro- counts, when proper regulations were produced, which showed the caution with vided, which it was the object of the bill which such changes ought to be made. to secure. It was an act of indispensable Other laws upon the same principle fol- humanity to mitigate the sufferings which lowed, which also had his support; but a sudden revolution had produced, but it he could not help saying, that it would was a duty to avert any dangers that be rather hard, after so decided a mani- might follow from it to the morals and festation of a tolerating spirit, to suspect manners of our own people. Under the the legislature of being weary of its hu- French monarchy, the monastic institutions manity, and of a desire to return to a sys- pervaded all France, and formed the natem of jealousy and restraint, only because tional characteristic, and there was a most in a case quite new, arising from a con- natural spirit in the Catholics, even in this vulsion in a Catholic state, it had become country, to extend their influence here. necessary to temper its humanity, but Indeed, he had seen an advertisement inwithout at all impairing its objects, or its viting all classes to receive their educations extent by a prudent consideration of its amongst them; surely this had a tendency effects upon our own people. It was said to make the Catholic religion more popu lar, yet the bill did not provide against this, except by the most liberal regula tions. Was there any thing harsh in any of them? Without the bill these foreigners could not have remained a single hour in England, independently of the Alien act, without a licence from the crown; and he could not therefore but insist that, if it passed into a law, it would be an enabling statute, because though the licence was still necessary, yet, when thus sanctioned and encouraged by parliament, its permanent operation was certain. There was one thing, however, in the bill which made an impression upon him as objectionable, but which might be altered in the committee. We had allowed those unhappy people to take shelter from the storm that had desolated their country; but suppose others should follow them, they could not be received, because the number received were not to be filled up as they diminished by deaths. Now he thought that a power ought to be given to his majesty to grant his royal licence to those who might come afterwards under similar circumstances, with some reasonable limitation as to the numbers of such new accessions. This could not dangerously extend the Catholic influence, as the king having only the power of granting the licence, it might upon proper oc. casions be refused, and a better security as a discretion in a magistrate we never could possibly have. Under such regulations as the bill contained, he saw no reason to refuse the indulgencies necessary for their protection and comfort.There was at present a great obscurity in all that related to the probable termination of the war, and should it even terminate to-morrow, it was not at all certain to what condition France might return, as it affected their security; and it therefore appeared to him that there was a sufficiently probable permanence in their continuing in England to make them fit objects of legislation. The bill granted to the miserable victims of revolution, who had been driven from their country, every convenience and comfort, and with no other restraints than that their institution should die a natural death with themselves, and not be recruited from the Protestant in habitants of this country. It was formerly the duty of the legislature to consider how they might best restrain Catholics, now it had only under prudent regulations to indulge them. There was but one point more he should advert to, and that was the power given to magistrates to visit those monastic houses, from which he could not anticipate any oppression. It was a mere security against a possible abuse. He said a possible abuse, because he did not believe that the indulgences would probably be overstepped, but as it was a principle in the Catholic religion, and he believed in every other, to extend its influence and to exalt its character, it was wise to guard against it by prudent and reasonable provisions. He should therefore vote for the bill, because whilst it secured the unhappy objects of it from penalties to which they would otherwise have been subject, it provided for our own safety. Mr. Sheridan said, that there ought to be made out a case showing the necessity for this measure, before the House agreed to any alteration in the law upon the subject. As to the objects of the bill, or rather those who were supposed to be the objects of it, there was no power to remove them, for they were natural-born subjects of this realm, and could not be put under the operation of the Alien act. The friends of the bill confounded vows with legal obligations: whereas, there was, in this country, no legal power of attaching any civil punishment to those who broke their vows. Any number of ladies might meet together, and make a vow that they would die old maids; but they could not be bound by law to observe that vow. The present bill was fraught with every thing that must insult the pride and alarm the feelings of the Roman Catholics of this country. It was telling them, that we understood their interests better than themselves, and knew best how and where their children should be educated. Without a strong case previously made out, he must oppose a measure which might be pregnant with the most horrible mischiefs. He opposed this bill, because he did not wish the Catholics to be exposed to popular indignation. Would any man, who remembered what had happened in 1780, tell him there was no danger to be apprehended from a furious, plundering, desolating, and proscribing mob, with the cry of "no popery?" Would any man tell him there was no probability that any designing, artful demagogue, should arise and pretend that the present high price of provisions was owing to the Catholics in this country? And who would answer for the consequences? It was not enough to say that the people were now more enlightened than they were; a mob, I whenever they were put in motion, had but one way of proceeding, and that was to take a catch-word, and, under it, to plunder and destroy wherever they proceeded. All this he saw at least as a possibility, by encouraging these legislative provisions without necessity. It had been said, that in the time of James 2nd there was but one Catholic in this country to an hundred protestants, and that the number was the same, or nearly the same, now; but did any man seriously mean to say that the danger at this time from the Catholic religion was the same as at that time? He had heard a good deal said in praise of toleration, as it was called, in this country. He was almost induced to hate the word, because it was but another name for mitigating persecution. The true sentence of justice was "freedom of worship." As to the provision in the bill which authorises magistrates to visit and inspect the Roman Catholic seminaries, he could think of nothing that more rudely violated all decorum and delicacy. Why not visit and inspect the places of education of other sects; or why hold out the falsehood that the Catholics were more to be feared? It was wonderful how the framers of the bill seemed to be influenced only by shadows and alarms, and never thought of any thing like proofs to justify the necessity of the measure. He had facts however to adduce. Mr. She ridan then proceeded to read a number of documents, by which it appeared that all mistresses of the Roman Catholic boarding schools had been asked the question, whether they had any Protestant young ladies under their care, or whether they were in the habit of admitting them as pupils? The uniform answer was, none; none; never. They were also asked, if they offered to educate, or did really educate Protestant young women for nothing? They never were guilty of such a thing, except in one or two in-charge, and the most respectable testistances, and then the young women were Catholics, not Protestants. A foolish alarm had also been sent abroad respecting the number of emigrant clergy now in this country; they were said to amount to 5,000; and persons had even been absurd enough to say, that in one county alone they had converted 2,000 house maids. How this wonderful conversion was brought about, he could not well conceive. The emigrant priests spoke but little English, and our housemaids, spoke as little French. The hon. gentleman proceeded to shew, that, out of the seventeen convents that were now established in this country, only nine of them took in pupils. They were the only schools to which Roman Catholic gentlemen could send their children to be educated; and was it not better that they should be educated here, under the eyes of their parents, and under the vigilant inspection of government, than in France, where their principles were supposed to run such risk of being corrupted? There was a great deal of prejudice in the minds of many well-meaning persons in this country upon the subject. It would seem as if these poor Catholics possessed all their former wealth, and that all their lands and goods had not been turned over with the cathedrals to our Churchas if Harry 8th had never stripped them of any thing. To suppose that a few obscure nuns, living in a garret, could, by scattering their wealth in this country, eclipse our established church in splendour, and thereby become dangerous, was absolutely ridiculous. Indeed, it was much to be apprehended, that this bill had its origin in a mixture of other motives than those that were merely religious: it might possibly arise out of a controversial spirit. That spirit had lately shewn itself, more particularly at Winchester, where the emigrants were not very popular, as perhaps, it was natural for the people to be somewhat angry at seeing the king's castle there garisoned only by French priests. Mr. Sheridan then mentioned the controversy between Dr. Sturges and Mr. Milner, on both of whom he bestowed the praise of erudition and abilities. He next instanced the cruel treatment received by the Abbé Fleury in Hampshire, who had been torn from his home by an order from the secretary of state, though it was not yet known what crime had been laid to his monies had been given to his character. All these documents he was ready to lay before the House. And it was his wish, that a committee might be appointed to inspect them, and report whether they saw any necessity for the measure. Nothing, in his mind, could be more inauspicious than such a bill at this time, when we were on the point of an union with a country three-fourths of whose inhabitants were Catholics. This bill was not worthy of being, as it were, the legacy of the last English parliament to its successors. It was hurtful to the feelings of the Catholics, incompatible with our professions of liberality, not countenanced by the spirit of our constitution, and possibly introductory of great public mischief, as well as private vexation. Mr. Perceval said, he considered it as the spirit of the Catholic persuasion to make as many converts as possible; indeed, it was the principle of every religion to a given extent, but emphatically so of the Catholic; and, therefore, while we were talking of kindness to the Catholics, and while we expected gratitude from them for such kindness, we were not to be surprised if that gratitude consisted in their endeavouring to convert the whole nation into Catholics; nor ought we to be angry with them for such an attempt, for they believed they could not obtain for us a greater blessing than to make Catholics of us all; but, it was our business to be on our guard against such a spirit, since it was inconsistent with the spirit of our constitution. He said this the more readily, from a conviction that, in France, if the power of the first consul continued many months, the Catholic religion would be established in France. There was not a man who had more esteem for toleration, than himself; but that did not compel him to lay aside all precaution against the possible effects of the over-growth of popery in this country. He would not see the hair of a man's head hurt on account of his religious opinions; but that did not compel him to think that Catholics were the best subjects of this country. He thought the bill ought to go into a committee. The question being put, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, the House divided: Debate in the Lords on the Monastic Institutions Bill.] July 10. The bill "to prevent any addition to the number of Persons belonging to certain foreign Reli gious Orders or Communities lately settled in this Kingdom, and to regulate the Education of Youth by such Persons," was read a second time. On the motion, that it be committed, The Bishop of Rochester said :-My lords; if I have not opposed the second reading of this bill, it is because I conceive that your lordships are seldom clearly informed of the principle of a bill till it has been read a second time. The first reading is little more than a notification that a bill for such or such a purpose is in the House; and, at this period of the session, we are so little in the habit of a close attendance upon our parliamentary duty, that it happens to many of your lordships not to see the prints that are laid upon the table till within a few minutes of the second reading. But the bill having now received its second reading, I must suppose your lordships to be in complete possession of its principle; and I rise without the least hesitation to op pose its farther progress. In this, my lords, I shall labour under this particular disadvantage,-that none of the friends of the bill having taken the trouble to open what they take to be its merits, I can only guess what they will find to say in support of it; I can therefore only state my own objec tions; and reply to the supposed arguments of the other side, by guess and divination. The object of the bill is to provide a security against certain dangers which it is supposed may arise from the great influx of persons of the Roman Catholic religion into this country, in consequence of the French revolution,-to provide a security against these dangers by a new power to be placed in the hands of the crown. My lords, my objection is, -that in one respect the bill is unnecessary, and in another completely unconsti tutional it is unnecessary as a means of security against the dangers it foresees,not because the apprehension is altogether groundless, but because the security is already provided by the existing laws; and in regard to the new power which it would give to the crown, it is perfectly unconstitutional. My lords, the storm of antichristian persecution, which has raged in France since her revolution, has driven numbers both of the secular clergy, and persons of both sexes of the religious |