the subject on which he bad spoken, as appeared by his allusion to the case of the missionary Smith, as that individual did not belong to the society of Methodists. That body never interfered in any political matters; nor was the money raised by them applied in any instance to a political purpose. In Ireland, he had reason to know, that a considerable number of Protestants had suffered in their circumstances, and their business had fallen off, because they had refused to subscribe. Gentlemen might say what they pleased about the nature of the Catholic rent; he knew that it had already created considerable alarm, and that individuals had been obliged to leave their dwellings in the country and to live in the towns, for their personal protection; and he thought that ministers would be extremely negligent of their duty, if they did not at once put an end to it. subject or the intention he had formed any further; but he must regret that any thing should be done which might lead the people of the Continent, and of other parts of the world, to believe that the increase of our army was for some purpose that might produce disquiet. Sir C. Forbes said he was happy to bear that a portion of the proposed addition to the military establishment was destined for India, and he could have wished that a larger portionnay, even the whole of the addition, should be sent thither. He insisted upon the necessity of the troops being embarked with as little delay as possible, and that precaution should be taken, by not overloading the transports, to guard against the probability of the soldiers suffering from sickness during the voyage. He regretted that the war now raging there had been allowed to commence; but since it had done so, he was convinced it was highly necessary to put as speedy a termination to it as was possible. If it were allowed to continue longer, he believed that consequences might arise from it which would shake our Indian empire to its very foundation. Mr. C. W. Wynn said, that papers were now in the press which he should be able at an early day to lay before the House, containing a body of information on the subject of the Burmese war which it was necessary that hon. members should be in possession of before any discussions could be entered upon. When the House should be acquainted with the particulars relating to this affair, he should be ready to enter upon the case of Lord Amherst, as fully as the papers might enable him. Mr. Hume said, the Attorney-General for Ireland had been asked over and over to point out wherein the alleged illegality of the Catholic Association consisted; to these questions he had not thought fit to return any answer. The people of Ireland, and the Catholics were the people of Ireland, had been too long ill treated; they had too long remained quiet under the oppressions which were practised against them. At length they had come forward in a constitutional manner, and now he trusted their voice would be heard, and that no new persecution would be attempted. He had rejoiced to hear in the last session a declaration on the part of his Majesty's ministers, that the laws were to be distributed in Ireland with the same impartial justice as in England; but how Mr. Alderman Heygate, after applauding the that declaration was to be made consistent measures proposed with respect to the Catholic with the intention now avowed by ministers, he Association, and the recognition of the South was yet to learn. There were now existing in American States, hoped that in the reduction of England many associations which it might be taxation which the ministers proposed, they said with as much reason were likely to be would do away with the assessed taxes, which applied to dangerous purposes as that in Ire-affected the comfort and independence of the land. The Dissenters' Association, which was established for the purpose of defending individual dissenters from oppressive prosecutions. This was a lawful and laudable object, and was precisely similar to that of the Catholic Association. He would go farther, and if he were a Catholic, he would say that the oppressions to which they had been exposed could only be borne to a certain extent, beyond which resistance became a duty. He had no doubt that if coercion, such as had been carried on, should be continued, resistance must be the consequence. The increase which had been announced in the military establishment, must in every point of view be unnecessary. It was impossible that any man could believe that such increase could be made for any beneficial purpose, or that it would have been made at all if it were not contemplated to bring the bayonet into use in Ireland. Up to the year 1792, 33,000 or 34,000 had been the greatest number of troops kept on foot in England in a time of peace. In 1821, the great military establishment then existing, was reduced from 80,000 to 76,000. Now, when his Majesty was constantly receiving assurances of the peaceful disposition of his allies-now that we were in the tenth year of profound peace, upon what rational pretence could this addition to the burdens of the people be justified? As it appeared, however, that the address to the Throne was a mere farce, he would not pursue the people more than all the indirect taxes. lle, IRELAND. Committee of Inquiry. THURSDAY, FEB. 10. The Earl of Liverpool rose to move the re-appointment of a committee to inquire into the state of Ireland in a more extended manner than the inquiry which took place last session. Last session a committee was appointed to inquire into the state of certain disturbed districts in Ireland which were subject to the Insurrection Act. The principal ground for appointing that committee was to enable the house to judge of the necessity of continuing that Act, and the inquiry was very properly, by order of the house, confined to the counties which were then subject to its operation. The inquiry, therefore, was limited as to space; but it was found necessary to extend it to many other subjects than the state of the disturbed districts; and, indeed, to make it almost general. He would, therefore, move for a committee to inquire into the state of Ire 1 land, and more particularly with regard to the circumstances which led to the disturbances in those parts of the kingdom which were the subject of inquiry last session. Under these terms, no fair subject of inquiry would be excluded. But he certainly did not mean to include the Catholic question. That was a subject of too paramount importance to be consigned to an inquiry of this kind. If, however, there were facts connected with that question which in the judgment of any noble lord might throw light on the inquiry, he would not object to their being investigated. Earl Darnley:-If the noble earl meant to inquire into the state of Ireland without making the Catholic question his main object, and obtaining information respecting that question from those most capable of furnishing it, his inquiry would be useless. To overlook the Catholic question in an inquiry into the state of Ireland, was to imitate the strolling company who advertised the tragedy of Hamlet with the part of Hamlet, for that night, omitted. The more their lordships examined the subject, the more would they be convinced that Ireland never could be satisfied until the just claims of the Catbolics were satisfied. Catholic Association. LORDS, MONDAY, FEB. 7.-The Marquis of Lansdown said, that, from what passed in the debate on the Address, an apprehension was entertained that ministers did not intend to lay on the table any papers connected with that part of His Majesty's Speech which related to the state of Ireland. The Earl of Liverpool observed, that the noble marquis's impression was right. He did not intend to submit any papers to their lordships. The Marquis of Lansdown then gave notice that he would to-morrow move an address to His Majesty for copies of all despatches from the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, relative to the political and religious societies in that country. TUESDAY, FEB. 8.-The Marquis of Lansdown rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move an address to His Majesty, praying for copies Lord Holland said, that many persons whose of despatches relating to political and religious rank, wealth, talents, and intimate connexion societies existing in Ireland. In the Speech with Ireland entitled their opinion to respect, by which the session had been opened, His had repeatedly urged the noble earl to agree to Majesty was made to say that Ireland had para general inquiry into the state of Ireland, but taken in the general prosperity of the empire; without success. A motion for that object last but it was added, that there existed in that session had been rejected; and the only inquiry country associations of a nature irreconcileto which the noble earl would consent, was one able with the spirit of the constitution. Comwhich was limited to the disturbed districts. bining this with his Majesty's subsequent reThe disturbance in those districts was then commendation to their lordships to adopt meaground of inquiry: but now that their lordships sures for suppressing these societies-combinhad come to the present session, what did they ing it too, with the noble earl's refusal to comlearn that there was no disturbance at all; municate that information which would be neso that the only narrow ground which the cessary to enable their lordships to form a right noble earl had for his former inquiry, was cut opinion on the subject; the house was placed from under him. But upon looking further into in a most unprecedented situation. He did not the subject, we find there is one thing in the remember any new restriction, even in time of state of Ireland-the situation of the Catholics war and public danger, having been imposed -one evil for which remedy is required. Oh, on the people, without a committee having been oh! we have got it now. Here is something to appointed to inquire into the alleged evil, or inquire about! "No," said the noble earl, a communication having been made of the evi"that is not to be inquired into." In appoint-dence on which such restrictions were grounding the committee, no reference must be made ed. It was now, as it appeared, intended to to that subject. The noble earl, in his caution limit the freedom not of one, but of all classes. on this question, resembled Marc Antony in his He had a right to assume this, for if there were love, who gave licence to men's tongues on all any law capable of correcting the evil comhis other faults, but not a word of Cleopatra. plained of, there certainly was no indisposition It could not but be confessed, however, that to enforce it. The acts of the associations, the inquiry, though late, was still acceptable. then, which were referred to in His Majesty's He rejoiced most sincerely at the appointment speech, whether morally right or not, must be of the committee, because he was sure its la- legal as the law now stood. Their lordships bours must prove useful. were, however, called upon, without any The Earl of Harrowby said, the house would knowledge of the alleged evil, to provide a recollect that the last committee was not ap-remedy for a danger at the moment when that pointed for a general inquiry, because the proposed renewal of the Insurrection Act was the only reason for its institution. The intended measure rendered inquiry necessary into the nature and extent of the disorders which appeared to call for the continuance of the act. As to his noble friend's observation on leaving out the Catholic question in his motion, their lordships would recollect that his noble friend had distinctly stated that he had no objection to the inquiry being so extended, that every fact bearing upon that question might be introduced; and he would on his own part state, that he had no objection to the introduction of danger was not pretended to be imminent (hear)-when the country was declared to be in a state of unexampled prosperity-and when all parties agreed that unusual tranquillity prevailed in Ireland. Different causes were assigned for this extraordinary tranquillity, The Catholic Association asserted that it was owing to themselves; the friends of the LordLieutenant, that it was owing to his prudent management; the friends of ministers, on the contrary, insisted that it was entirely owing to the wise measures adopted by them, with respect to Ireland, for the last two years. But whatever difference of opinion might exist as T t 66 to the cause, there was none as to the fact; that the form of an oath should not be adminisand he had, therefore, a right to assert that no-tered, for that, like conventional delegation, body existed in Ireland willing to disturb the was a tangible object. But, when there was public peace, or, what would do as well for no form, no compulsion or oath, and when ail him, none able to disturb it. What a moment that was done was founded in confidence, he then for this extraordinary proceeding! As if would ask what more could be done by law, some conspiracy, some dreadful treason had than getting rid of certain words? They might been discovered, they were called upon to im- object to the term "association," or especially pose new restrictions on the liberties of the to the term "rent," for many people would people, without even inquiring into the reality have every thing under that name take a very of the danger. But he should perhaps be told, different direction. Their lordships would rethat they had only to govern their proceedings collect that a Secretary for Ireland had set himby the notoriety of the case. If, however, self against the "Catholic Committee," and be there were ever a case in which this argument succeeded in getting rid of it; but the Cathowas useless, it was this; it was a case in which lic Association" took its place. In like manner persons who had the best opportunities of in- the learned lord might get rid of "association" formation had been most notoriously deceived. and "rent;" but the question was, would not The law-officers in Ireland, whose business it the people still meet and pay their money in was to inquire into the case, and who had the spite of the law? The learned lord would find best means of obtaining knowledge, had been it a hard task to prevent men from paying their completely deceived. The facts they endea- own money in any way in which they wished voured to establish in the case he alluded to- to pay it. Whatever might be the law, it was a case in which the witnesses produced to sup- always difficult enough to get money into one's port the charge contradicted themselves and pocket, but he never heard of any difficulty in one another-were rejected, not by a petty, getting it out. Their lordships knew the story but by a grand jury. He, therefore, must con- of Piron's applying to a member of the French clude that the present was one of those sub- Academy to abuse a comedy he was about to jects, in which, instead of relying upon loose print-" for," said he," if you abuse it in the reports, and newspaper statements, they ought Academy to-night, I shall sell every copy 10to inquire strictly as to the facts. They had in morrow." Now, had he been a member of the the first place to be satisfied of the existence Association, and could have gained access to of evil; next, as to its nature, and by what re- the learned lord, he should have asked him to medy it could be put down; and in the third say in Parliament that the Catholic rent was a place, that in extinguishing the evil, they did bad thing, and then he should have expected it not create a greater in its stead. Now, in all to be soon doubled. He would tell their lordthese points their lordships required informa- ships another anecdote. In a remote period tion. They were about to engage in a task, of the connexion of the two countries, when which, even with every information, would be those acts of violence which had always been of a most difficult nature. It was one of which too frequent in Ireland prevailed to a great they might see the commencement, but of which extent, the Irish were accustomed to vocifethey could not see the end. The learned lord rate two words Crom-a-boo and Butler-a-boo. on the woolsack, who was reported to be the The correspondents of the English Government parent of the forthcoming measure, had under-represented that those words were the cause of taken a task of which, from every estimate he all the outrages which were committed. A could form of the abilities which the learned meeting of the cabinet took place. It was relord had brought to it, he could not anticipate solved, that the obnoxious words must be put success. In the absence of all information, he down, and an act was passed for abolishing must speak from report, and if, as was said, them from the Irish language. But considering the object of the measure was to extinguish the that the Irish would not be quiet if they were Association and the Catholic rent-he would not allowed to use some exclamation, they tell him, that unless he could make it penal for were permitted to call out "St. George;” but persons to place confidence in others,-unless if they persisted in using the proscribed words, he could prevent people from giving away they were to be hanged. Whether this law their money-unless he could prevent the sen- had the effect of abolishing the mischievous timents expressed by one man from reaching words was not known; but the outrages were the ears of another, and the money of one man as violent as ever. This act, then, had failed, from passing into another man's pocket-un- but he could not tell how far the present might less he could do all this, he would do nothing. succeed. Their lordships must recollect, that Before he proceeded further on this point, he it was against words, and words only, that they would notice the pretence, that the proposed were called upon to legislate. It became the in measure was not a substantive bill, but a mere to consider whether, by expressing apprehenamendment of the Convention Act. Now, there sion of the Association, they would not give was a much wider difference between them. importance to it, and increase substantially the The Convention Act was passed to prevent a very powers which they were nominally about form of proceeding which, whether an offence to abridge. It was not necessary for him to or not, was a tangible object. He would not apologize for, or explain the proceedings of now discuss the propriety of delegation: al- the Association; nobody had any right to though he should be sorry to give an unqualified judge of those proceedings from report; but opinion against it, because the greatest and he had no objection to state, that if the reports best men which this country ever produced were correct, he saw much in those proceedhad considered delegation a fit and constitu-ings to disapprove. But having said that, he tional mode for obtaining a redress of grievances. However that might be, at least delegation was a practice tangible by law; in like manner, were secret oaths. They might say must also state, that there were some of the proceedings of the Association which met his approbation: but because they were of that mixed character, he would not therefore at IRELAND, Catholic Association. M49 tempt to put down the Association, conceiving duct of the Catholic Association? The only The Earl of Liverpool said, that if the noble emarquis had thought proper to wait for two or three days, be might have satisfied himself with respect to the proceeding to which his motion referred. But he would argue the question on the supposition of the noble marquis, The noble marquis said, that no abridgement ought ever to be made of the liberty of the subject without an inquiry being instituted on information laid before Parliament. If he meant, that no such measure should be adopted without sufficient grounds, he agreed with him. But those grounds might be facts of general notoriety; as well known to all their lordships as to Government. When their lordships passed a measure affecting the Orange societies, they did not ask for a titule of evidence, or enter into any inquiry: but could it be suid that they knew half as much of those societies as they did of the Catholic Association? He did not intend to argue that in acting in that manner regarding the Orange societies, they had acted fightly he merely stated, that they acted without inquiry or official information, and only on the notoriety of the case. If it were intended that the measure about to be brought, should rest on official information, he would agree, that before they adopted the measure, there Would he a fair ground for inquiry. But the Lord Holland observed, that through the measure intended to be introduced would not be founded on official information, nor, indeed, whole course of his speech the noble earl had apon any circumstances which were not as well carefully abstained from stating to their lordknown to any one of their lordships as to his ships what the motion was, or from giving any Majesty's ministers. It was the boast of the reasons why the information which it sought Catholic Association that all their proceed- should not be granted. He had contented himings were public; that every thing which they self with saying, that the motion had reference did, was done in the face of day, and before to something of which the house knew nothingthe world. If their lordships should adopt any although it clearly had reference to the King's measure affecting the Association, they would Speech-and declared it unprecedented and adopt it on evidence which no member of it uncalled for. The refusal, and not the demand Hould dare to deny. lle could therefore see of the information, would be unprecedented, no ground for the motion of the noble marquis. indecent, and unjust. How often had the noble The noble marquis supposed-for what reason earl come down to that house calling for com he could not divine that the proposed mea-mittees, and furnishing papers and information, ure was the contrivance of the learned lord on the woolsack. Undoubtedly, the measure could not be introduced into Parliament without his concurrence, but certainly it was no part of his duty to concoct it. It was the measure of the Irish Government, approved of by the English Cabinet. It was adopted from a deep sense of its necessity to preserve peace in Ireaad He would ask, what must be the effect which were to end in laws abridging the liberty A other. He was thus for Crom-a-300 and Butlera-boo both. The serpentine line may be traced in all that relates to Ireland. -"Penitusque in viscera lapsum Serpentis furiale malum, totamque pererrat.” The real question before their lordships was, whether or not, when they were called on from the throne to legislate on evils said to exist in Ireland, they were to do so in the dark ? If the necessity did exist, where so many mil was, indeed, a frightful necessity, but still their lordships were bound to obey it: but he conjured them, as they valued the safety of the empire-he conjured them, as they valued the liberties of their fellow-subjects he conjured them, as they valued the character of the laws of this country-not to have recourse, without full and substantial evidence of that necessity, to so baneful and disgusting a measure. do well to wait until it was proposed, and then judge if the measure were equal to the occasion. the nature and extent of the evil, because they did not know what remedy might be adopted. He thought it would be impossible for the house, if they had any respect for their character, or if they wished the proposed measure to carry any consideration out of doors, to refuse his noble friend's request. The noble earl was fond of precedents, and said that one for the intended measure was to be found in the bill respecting the Orange Societies, which passed, he said, unanimously, and without inquiry, How was it that the House was recon-lions were to be affected by the measure, it ciled to that bill? It was merely the extension of a law already existing in England, and was originally introduced in a committee by Mr. Sec. Dundas, after a long and painful inquiry (hear, hear). From what had fallen from the noble earl, he conceived that the pattern to which he looked with respect to the intended measure, was the Irish Convention Act. At the time that Act was passed, there was a threat of a Convention to be held at Athlone, for pur- Earl Bathurst briefly opposed the motion. poses legal in description, but it was supposed The principle brought forward on the present with other designs. We were on the eve of a war occasion was this-If, on the face of the with France, which, it was alleged, held public proceedings of this association, there forth its arms to receive the discontented of all were nothing to justify their lordships in adoptcountries, but more particularly of this. What ing the proposed measure, then they would rehappened? The noble Keeper of the Privyject it; but if there were, their lordships would Seal (Earl of Westmorland) was then Viceroy of Ireland. Surrounded with the dangers to which he had alluded, what was the conduct of the noble earl when he came down to the Irish The Earl of Caernarvon said, that the noble Parliament? Did he mark out the Convention earl had talked of statements, but he had heard for the notice of Parliament in the Speech from nothing stated. He thought the noble earl the Throne? No, he recominended conciliation, would, as upon other occasions, have produced and concession to the Catholics. He began by some documents to justify the strong recoma boon, and afterwards proceeded to adopt mendation which had been put into the mouth of measures which he thought necessary for the His Majesty. He, however, did no such thing, safety of the State. The Convention Act was whilst another noble lord (Bathurst) actually preceded by one which conferred upon the apologized for the little he was going to say Catholics almost the only privileges which they upon the subject. Between both, in what a enjoy. He contended that the nature of his condition were their lordships placed He noble friend's motion was mistaken: the ques- would'ask, were they to legislate on the pretion was not as to whether the alleged griev-amble of the bill to be introduced on a future ances required a remedy, but whether they were to adopt an important measure without information on the subject. It might be said, they had the King's Speech: they had; but what did they learn from it? It stated, that the Irish were more prosperous and industrious than ever-and that associations existed amongst them which called for a remedy. It then proceeded to recommend inquiry into the state of Ireland. Now, if the noble earl meant that no information should be afforded until after the remedy was brought forward, why recommend inquiry? According to the King's Speech, if any measure were to be adopted, it ought not to be adopted rashly; for it was stated in that Speech that the condition of Ireland was highly prosperous.. When he read the passage relat-enough for you." ing to unconstitutional associations, he looked round him to see what association there could be of this kind, and it struck him that it was the Irish Cabinet (hear). That, indeed, was an association contrary to the spirit of the constitution; for it was formed upon a system of disunion and counteraction, which might be seen in every one of its measures, and which was only equalled in this respect by the English Cabinet. It was marked by the greatest inconsistencies, like the conduct of the Attorney-merely state the circumstances out of which General of Ireland, who when he had instituted one foolish prosecution on one side, endeavoured to counteract it by a more foolish one on the day? Were they to say "content” or “not content" on any bill which the House of Commons might send up, without having any infor mation to guide them, and that upon a bill which might be of the most vital interest to the welfare and the safety of the country? Were they to proceed in this way upon such a measure as this when they would require evidence before them in support of the most unimportant private bill? The noble earl said that all the information was to be derived from the newspapers, and in the same breath he stated that the proposed measure was founded on the despatches received from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The ministers said to the House. "We act on despatches: the newspapers are The house then divided Content, 20-Not content, 42-Majority against the motion, 22. COMMONS, THURSDAY, FEB. 10.—Sir G. Hill presented a petition from the nobility, magistrates, clergy and freeholders of the county of Londonderry, praying for the suppression of the Catholic Association. He should this petition had originated. He could assure the house, that though much alarm had been excited in the minds of the Protestant popula |