Mr. Wellesley Pole assured the committee, that he felt too strongly how ineffective any thing he could say must be, after the splendid speech of his right hon. friend, to trouble them at any length upon the great question before them. In the results come to by the secret committee, of which his right hon. friend had been the worthy chairman, he most completely agreed; there was not a sentence in the report which was not a fair deduction from the evidence taken before the committee, intricate as it was, and difficult as it undoubtedly had been to sift and compare in all its parts. He most cordially agreed with his right hon. friend in all that he had said of the temper which had been manifested by the members of the secret committee during its long and laborious investigations; nor should he do justice to the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Tierney) and his friends, were he not to say, that nothing could have been more manly, honest, and assiduous, than their conduct in the committee during the three months of its sitting. They appeared determined to forget all party feeling, and to unite in endeavouring to discover the best means of benefitting the country. But, although he cordially concurred in the report of the committee, he felt that he should not act candidly if he did not declare, that, for one, he should have been most willing to have had the report, and the present resolutions framed in the spirit of the amendment moved by the hon. gentleman opposite, had he thought that that could have been done consistently with the duty of the committee to the House and the country, after the paper which the Bank director sent into the committee in answer to the two questions which had been proposed to them. He felt the greatest respect for the directors of the Bank of England, and believed that they were actuated by the best motives; but he would leave it to any member of the House, or any candid man in the country to say whether, after the production of the paper to which he had alluded, the committee could with consistency or propriety, have left it to the Bank to determine when, and under what circumstances, the payments in cash should be resumed. sent Mint regulations we gave an encouragement to the importer of silver, and gold was rendered scarce by being sent out of the market to purchase it. A profit of 8 per cent was held out in favour of a counterfeit silver coinage; and with such an inducement, what was there to hinder ingenious and speculative men from working mints in France or any other part of the continent, making silver coin exactly resemble ours in appearance and fineness, and transmitting it to this country, where they could get a profit of 6 per cent upon it? The difficulty of detection would be exceedingly great. The imitation of our coin in base metal might be easily discovered; but such an imitation as that to which he alluded could with great difficulty be detected. The consequence would be, that while the temptation continued, silver coin would abound in this country to the exclusion of the gold. No argument could be drawn in support of the measure from the state of the silver coinage in the reign of William 3rd; for, though at that time it was made a legal tender to the amount of 251. by tale, and over that sum by weight, yet in the tale a reasonable allowance was to be made for wear, and if, as was the fact, it became to be very much reduced by wear, it could not be considered a legal tender, and if taken as such, it was by common sufferance; but the same argument could not apply to our silver coinage now. Neither could the currency of the Dutch schellings in a deteriorated state afford an argument in favour of the system of the Mint regulations; for, according to the evidence of Mr. Page, those schellings were rather used as counters, than passed as value to their amount; at least they were not taken as such by the Bank of Amsterdam. Indeed, so great an objection had the late lord Liverpool to the system of seignorage, from a conviction of its bad effects, that in the contract with Mr. Bolton for the copper coinage, it was stipulated that the coin should be of equal value with the metal given, minus the expense of coining. If the experiment, which for the first time we were about to make, were to answer, what good would result from it? But if it should not answer, there would be a drain of gold upon the Bank which it could not stand. It would be like pouring water into a sieve. He could only say, that he viewed the trial with the greatest apprehensions for its consequences. He would not trespass any longer upon the time of the committee by adverting to the general question; indeed he should not have risen at all, if it had not been for what had fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last: he perfectly agreed with that learned gentleman, that the particular considerations which he had pressed upon the attention of the committee were of very great importance, and entertaining the opinions which the learned gentleman did upon the subject, it was undoubtedly his duty to bring it distinctly under the consideration of the committee. The opinions, however, of the learned gentleman upon this point were by no means new; they had appeared before the public in a great variety of shapes. They had been urged with uncommon assiduity and perseverance by one person highly gifted with talents, and possessing great information, and especially upon this particular point. They had been pressed upon the attention of the public, under the signatures of the "Old Merchant," "Mr. Hardcastle," and others; and to do the learned gentleman justice, he had to-night spoken the language of "Mr. Hardcastle" and the "Old Merchant," very correctly. The best answer, perhaps, which he could give to the learned gentleman, would be to state distinctly the principles upon which the Mint regulations were founded. They were not adopted without that degree of consideration which the importance of the subject demanded; and if they were erroneous, those who had advised the Prince Regent upon the subject had much to answer for. From the time of the silver coinage in the reign of king William, the greatest inconvenience had been felt from the circumstance of both the precious metals having been considered as standards of value. The legislature could fix the value of the coin, but it could not fix the value of the gold or silver bullion from which the coin was made; the relative prices of the precious metals would vary in the market from time to time like other commodities, and as the prices of bullion fluctuated, an effect was immediately produced upon the coin; it was therefore found quite impracticable to keep the coin of the two precious metals in circulation together; both being standards of value, the one by law and the other by common consent, they became competitors with one another. In the year 1773, the silver was so depreciated, that although it remained nominally a standard of value, yet all our exchanges with foreign countries, as appeared by a reference to the best authorities, were measured by the gold coin. The gold coin in circulation The at that period was much worn and reduced in weight; a circumstance which was found materially to affect our exchanges; it therefore became necessary to call in the light gold and recoin it; and in 1774, when the great reformation in the gold coin took place, it was in fact made the sole standard of value. Gold coin was, by the act of 1774, ordered to be taken by weight instead of by tale as heretofore; the weight of the guinea when it issued from the Mint was 5 dwts. 9 gr. but the light guineas in circulation were very much below that standard; when therefore they were called in and recoined, the new guinea was declared not to be a legal tender under the weight of 5 dwts. 8 gr.; one grain and the fraction being allowed for wear by circulation. immediate effect of bringing our gold coin to this state of perfection, was, as Dr. Adam Smith has observed, to turn the exchanges throughout Europe in our favour. When the gold coin was reformed, the silver coin in circulation was, as he had already stated, worn to a very great degree; it was reduced to the amount of between 25 and 30 per cent; and a great quantity of it which had many years before been taken out of the country was now brought back in its reduced state: the late lord Liverpool, apprehensive of the inconvenience which might arise from this light silver coin coming into competition with the perfect gold coin as an unlimited legal tender, proposed a law which parlia ment adopted, prohibiting the further importation of light silver coin, and limiting the legal tender of that which was in circulation, by tale to 25l. in any one payment; beyond that sum the silver coin was to be taken by weight at the rate of 5s. 2d. an ounce. This was a temporary measure adopted at a time when it was thought impossible to arrange the monetary system permanently, though, in fact, it established our currency upon the footing, in point of principle, on which it now existed; that act remained in full force from 1774 to 1783. The silver coin then, during that period, was a legal tender for all sums under 25l., being, as he had before stated, deteriorated near 30 per cent, and though, during the whole of that time, the Bank was open for cash payments, and the gold coin was in the highest state of perfection, yet no gold coin was drawn out of the country, nor did gold bullion ever rise above the Mint price; how then was it to be apprehended, 717] Resumption of Cash Payments. that a silver coinage, reduced in weight The learned gentleman seemed to have MAY 24, 1819. a certain sum." The coinage of silver (718 was also prohibited from 1798, yet it never entered the imagination of any man, that the silver coin in circulation, deteriorated as it was near 30 per cent, could be refused as a legal tender to the extent of 25l., and in fact it was universally circulated, and passed in all payments. gentleman, that we had altered the Mint It had been contended by the learned price of silver, by making the proportion in our silver coin as 14. to our gold, and that foreigners would calculate their exchanges with us, not in gold, but in our depreciated silver coin. But the fallacy that ran through the whole of this argument arose from his not recollecting, that this silver coin was not a legal tender beyond 40s., and that the coinage was in the hands of government. The learned gentleman had stated that sovereigns might be taken to France, where they might be exchanged for silver, at the rate of 15 pounds of silver for one of gold, and thus the man who had obtained his sovereigns at the rate of 3l. 17s. 101d. per oz. by selling them at the rate of 15 actually obtain for his ounce of sovereigns pounds of silver for one of gold, would 4. 5s. 3d. The learned gentleman could, bullion or of sovereigns, obtain 15. no doubt, for a pound either of gold pounds of silver at Paris; and if he could bring that silver to England, and coin it, and issue it without expense or reduction for seignorage, at the rate our silver is coined, then no doubt he could realize his profit. But, under our present regulations, the learned gentleman must, upon a little reflection, be convinced, that no such profit could be made. Any person purchasing silver under the circumstances described, and bringing it into this country, not being able to coin it, must use it merely as bullion in the market. Government had tions they could prevent gold or silver never supposed that by any Mint regulabullion from rising in price, all that could be done was, to prevent the coins of the two precious metals from clashing or competing with each other, and this he contended had been effectually done by our present system of coinage. it a new discovery of the learned gentleBut was lion, or of gold coin, would purchase 15 man, that a pound of gold standard bulpounds of silver at Paris? Was not the learned gentleman aware, that this had always been the case-since the Mint regulations at Paris had been established? It had been so for many years, and yet the learned gentleman now stated it as if it had been the effect of our new silver coinage. If the learned gentleman's calculations of the effects produced by the new silver coinage were correct, gold should be in the market 4l. 5s. 3d. an ounce, being the value of the silver it would purchase in Paris, and silver upon the same principle ought to be 5s. 6d. ; yet, at the time he was speaking, gold was 41. Os. 6d., and silver 5s. 4d., and, it was remarkable, that in all the variations which had taken place in the price of the precious metals since the new silver coinage was issued, they had never been at the relative price at which they ought uniformly to be, if the learned gentleman's theory was correct. They had risen, and fallen, and varied, as they always would, in the market; but unfortunately for the learned gentleman, gold had never been at 4l. 5s. 3d., and silver at 5s. 6d. at the same time. The learned gentleman had said, that that the present system was quite new, and would answer no good purpose: in reply to this he had only to state, that it had been established after much deliberation, and that in fact it was the same which had been recommended by the late lord Liverpool. It had also the sanction of another high authority; namely, Dr. Adam Smith. In common with most other writers on political economy, Dr. Smith was of opinion, that it was a great evil to have two metallic standards of value to an unlimited amount. The learned gentleman, however, wished that we had continued to act on the old system. But what was the old system? It was, that the subject had the power of coining gold and silver at the Mint to any amount, and that both coins were legal tenders to an unlimited extent. To permit this, was contrary to the opinion of all the most skilful political economists. Dr. Adam Smith said, it would be highly desirable to have the silver coin regulated on the same principle as the copper, which was limited as a legal tender to the amount of one shilling, and he thought that the limitation of the silver tender ought to be for the change of a guinea, and that the silver might be rated as much above the market price as it was below it at the time he wrote. This appeared to him (Mr. Pole) the correct view of the subject; indeed, it was that in which the late regulations had been framed; and he had found, upon examining the proportion that was taken for silver coin, that it came to within a farthing of that which Dr. Smith recommended. It had also been the opinion of the late lord Liverpool, that a seignorage should be taken upon silver, and his lordship advised that the coinage should be put into the hands of some great corporation, such as the Bank, to prevent an excessive issue which might thus be controlled by government. So that, in point of fact, the recommendation of lord Liverpool corresponded in principle with what had been done, more efficaciously by being taken into the hands of government. learned gentleman would hardly dispute that, previous to the adoption of the regulations now in force, the state of the silver coinage was such as was very inconvenient to the nation. He need not recall to the recollection of the House the state of the country at the time they were made. They had now been in operation for more than two years, and he might venture to say, that there was this proof of their efficacy, that not a murmur was now any where to be heard relative to the coinage-yet when the regulations for the coinage were first proposed, there was an outcry against them in the very same quarter whence the objections which he was The now considering proceeded. The noble "Old Merchant" had then asked, how a measure so rash and imprudent could be attempted, as to change the silver currency of the country? And insisted, that it would cause the greatest distress among the lower orders, that the shopkeeper, the small trader, the poor man, would be ruined. The chancellor of the exchequer had stated, that he hoped the expences would not exceed 500,000l. This calculation was met by a still more positive denunciation of the evil consequences of any attempt towards a new silver coinage; and it was maintained, that the expense would be twentyfold more than the sum mentioned by the chancellor of the exchequer; half a million!! said the noble "Old Merchant." You are completely mistaken, it will cost you at least nine millions and a half, and that enormous sum must be taken from the pockets of the shop-keeper and the small trader, and an incalculable injury will be done to the country! Calculate, said the noble "Old Merchant," upon one in twenty of the trash now in circulation being counterfeit. I tell you nine would have been a profit on the fraud of more then 30 per cent. Such a thing had never been attempted; all counterfeits of our coin had been fabricated at home, and made of base metal; or when the coin was much worn, and the impression wholly effaced, had been produced from stolen plate beat thin for the purpose: and this he was convinced would always be the case. We had no example of a contrary practice: the counterfeit coiner proceeded upon quite different principles from those suggested by the learned gentleman; and it would be utterly impossible for such an operation as the learned gentleman had mentioned to take place, without its being almost instantly detected. All experience was against such an attempt being made; and even if it were to be made, and succeeded, he could not see how it could produce the effect of driving the gold coin out of circulation. As to the copper coin, the learned gentleman was quite mistaken in the view he had taken of it. At the time when he (Mr. Pole) wrote the paper upon which the learned gentleman had commented, which he had laid before the secret committee of the House of Lords by their desire, the copper coinage was circulating at a seignorage of 724 per cent. This, though there was nearly a million of it in circulation, was found not to cause any inconvenience to the public, because as it was limited as a legal tender to twelve pence, it could only be used for the accommodation of change, and like the silver coin, could produce no effect upon our exchanges, or the value of the precious metals. teen in twenty are of that description." I The result, however, had shown, as appeared by documents upon the table of the House, that the whole expense of the new coinage, of the exchange of the coin, and the recoinage of the old coin, including all contingencies, did not amount to more than 520,000l. Such were the predictions when the new coinage was announced. But the gold coin and the rate of exchange never entered into the noble "Old Merchant's" contemplation at that time. He predicted, indeed, the loss of the new silver coin, which, he said, would all leave the country in the course of six weeks. The event, however, had shown how completely the noble "Old Merchant" had been mistaken, and he (Mr. Pole) could not but entertain a sanguine hope, that the present prophecies, however, confidently delivered, would prove to be as erroneous as those to which he had just alluded. Indeed, if the effect of the regulations for the last coinage were compared with those of any former period, it would be found that none had ever been so completely successful. The new coinage in the reign of king William, which cost the country nearly 3 millions stirling, had been attended with many difficulties, and had occasioned a great deal of distress throughout the kingdom, nothing of this kind had occurred in 1817. Throughout the whole kingdom there was hardly an individual who had lost a shilling or a sixpence; and he had not heard a murmur on the subject from any corner of Great Britain. There was now no want of change, and he hoped soon to see the time, when there would be no want of It had been asked, how the crown bullion. The learned gentleman, in the lawyers could have recommended such a course of his speech, had expressed an measure as the proclamation of the 1st apprehension, that, in addition to all the March 1817, declaring, that the silver coin other evils to be brought upon us by our should not be received at the Mint and present system of coinage, we were liable exchanged, unless the shillings weighed to have coin exactly similar to our own three penny-weights fifteen grains, and fabricated abroad, and thrown in great the other coins in proportion, if they conquantities into our circulation; for this ceived that by the act of 1774 (made perpurpose, he said, there could be no doubt petual), the silver coin was a legal tender that mints would be established on the by tale to the amount of 25l. He could continent, and the profit of thus counter- not but think it extraordinary, that those feiting our coin would be 8 per cent. who urged this objection should not be He owned he had no such apprehension; aware that the 56th of the king emthe counterfeiting of our coin had never powered his majesty, by proclamation, to proceeded in any similar manner-during repeal the act of 1774; that it was acthe whole time that our silver coin in cordingly so repealedon the 12th February circulation had been reduced in value 30 1817, and that under the 56th of the per cent; and that if the learned gentle-king the old silver coin had been called man's project had been practised, there in, and exchanged, before the proclama-. (VOL. XL.) (3 A) |