part of Sir John Shore's proceedings at Lucknow ?-As far as I recollect every one did: I had every reason to be satis fied with it, and, I believe, every other member of the council had; I cannot charge my memory with the opinion of every one at this moment.

Did you not consider the arrangements as permanent, and as highly advantageous in every point of view to the best interests of the East India company, and founded on justice and sound policy?I certainly did.

During your stay at Lucknow, or on your march to that city, did you not hear that vizier Ali, and the people who were connected with him, had made a rapid excursion from a place called Hyder Ghur, had entered the treasury and jewel office, and purloined a very considerable property belonging to the late vizier?I cannot speak positively to that; I think I have a faint recollection of something of the kind.

Perhaps I may bring the circumstance to your recollection, which may enable you to answer the question. Do you not remember that vizier Ali did return rapidly to Lucknow, and, in his way back to Hyder Ghur, where his army was encamped, he rode post, and got a fall which endangered his life?-It is possible that may have passed, but I do not recollect it.

You think he did purloin jewels and other treasure?-I am not at all clear of it.

Did not you hear that lord Teignmouth actually recovered some of the jewels, and gave them back to Saadut Ali? I cannot speak positively to it; I have some idea of it, but it is a very faint one.

You say you have some faint recollection of it?-Upon your speaking of it, the thing has passed on my mind, since that I think I have some faint recollection of transactions of that kind, but it is so faint I cannot speak to it.

How long did you continue acting governor-general after the departure of Sir John Shore for Europe?—I should think about two months.

During that time, was not, as far as you know, the conduct of the nabob in very respect most unexceptionable and exemplary?-I had very little reason to hear much about him during that short period, but I do not recollect any thing disadvantageous to him during that period.

At that time, were not you in the habits of receiving the Lucknow newspapers?-They were received through the Persian translator, and any thing particularly necessary was communicated, I suppose, but I never received them myself.

During the period you were acting governor-general you heard nothing discreditable to the character of the na bob?-I have not any thing in my recol lection.

Did it ever enter into your contem. plation, during that very short period, to make any alterations, or suggest any, in the arrangements made at Lucknow, and entered into with your entire appro bation? I must answer that question very doubtfully, for I really cannot charge my memory with it; I do not recollect that I did; it is possible that I might. I should hope it will be considered by the house it is now a period of near seven years since those transactions took place; I have been in England upwards of five, and really have discharged my mind most completely of all the business which passed there; I have had very little occasion to refer to it since, and theref re my memory must be necessarily imperfect.

You delivered over the charge of government to marquis Wellesley, then lord Mornington ?-On marquis Wellesley's arrival, he, of course, took charge of the government.

Do you recollect, shortly after lord Wellesley's arrival, his having any conversation with you about the affairs of Oude?-No, I do not recollect any particular conversations on the subject of the affairs of Oude; I think it is very possible he did converse with me on the subject of the affairs at Oude, as well as the other parts of the administration he was going to undertake; I cannot positively say he did not, but I can only answer from my present recollection.

You mean to say you have no recollection of his holding conversations with you and the late colonel William Scott as to the then recent transactions in Oude, and mentioning his intention of first reducing the nabob's troops, and introducing a body of the company's forces in that state, and of demanding payment for the same beyond the sám stipulated for by the treaty ?-I cannot say that I recollect that conversation; it is very possible there may have been convers

sations

sations on that subject, but I have no recollection of any conversation of that kind soon after lord Wellesley's arrival.

You have no recollection that, almost immediately after his arrival, he intimated to you his intention of interfering in the civil and military affairs of Oude -I have no recollection of it at this

moment.

Did you on any occasion, to the best of your recollection, advise him to any interference in the affairs of Oude, as being necessary, justifiable, or proper?— Upon my word I cannot say that I recollect my having given any advice on that subject, unsought; certainly, during the course of my being there, circumstances arose which did occasion al

terations.

In the early part, before he went to the coast-I do not recollect it; any thing that is in writing I do not mean by what I say to disavow, but I have not seen a single paper upon this subject.

On lord Wellesley's going to the coast, about the close of the year 1798, did his lordship give you any directions relative to effecting any change in the arrangements at which you assisted in Oude?-I do not recollect his leaving any directions with me at all; it is possible conversations may have passed on the subject, not that I recollect any, nor do I recollect any directions left with

me when he went.

Do you recollect that he mentioned to you any intention of removing Mr. John Lumsden, the then resident at Lucknow, or that it might be necessary to send the late colonel Scott on a special mission to Lucknow ?—I cannot say that I recollect that; I do recollect that there was an intention of removing Mr. Lumsden, and that colonel Scott was thought of and was afterwards employed and sent there; I do not recollect that there was any arrangement made for that previous to his lordship's going to the coast.

Mr. Lumsden assisted you in the arrangements made between Sir John Shore and the nabob vizier with respect to plaIcing him on the musnud?—I have very little doubt he must have been there; it was his business; but I do not recollect it.

How long did you act as vice-president of the council of Bengal?- From the period of my lord Wellesley's departure from Madras, which is not now in my tecollection, until his return from Madras

again; I believe the whole period, though I do not recollect the dates of his going or returning, might be about nine months.

During that period, do you recollect whether lord Wellesley conveyed to you his fixed determination of interfering in the affairs of Oude? I do not quite understand the question as put, his "fixed determination to interfere in the "affairs of Oude?"-he certainly wrote to me to say, that he wished very much to carry into effect the plan of reducing the vizier's troops, and the intention certainly was, when that was done, which I understood to be with the sanction, at least, and approbation, I believe, of the vizier himself, who certainly did not at all like to depend on the troops he then possessed; I believe that was the ground of it, and it was certainly afterwards, in a certain degree, carried into effect.

Did you, during the period of your so acting, in any manner, accede to such interference, or sanction any infraction of the treaty of 1798 ?—I am not aware that I did, and I hope I did not; it was certainly meant to keep that treaty inviolable.

Did you understand that, by the reduction of the military establishment of the vizier, lord Wellesley meant to disband the greater part of the nabob's army, and to introduce British troops in the place of those so disbanded?-I cer tainly understood the intention both of the vizier and my lord Wellesley was to get rid of as many of the vizier's troops as they could, and as soon as they could; it was not practicable to do it immediately, and there were parts of the troops belonging to the company in readiness to supply the deficiencies as they might be able to reduce the nabob's troops.

Did you understand that lord Wellesley meant to reduce the whole of the nabob's troops, and to introduce instead of those troops so reduced an equal number, or any number, of the British troops?

It certainly was in contemplation to reduce the number of the vizier's troops, and to supply him with troops of the company's, for the protection of his country in the stead of theirs.

Whether he demanded them or not? I understood it to be done with the concurrence of the vizier.

Do you mean, by reducing the number, that you understood, or sanctioned,

the

the reduction of the whole of the nabob's army? The more of them, as far as my opinion went, I thought the better both for the nabob and for us, for I thought he would be better served by the troops intended to be substituted in their stead.

You mean to say, that, reducing the number was the same, in your opinion, as reducing the whole? My opinion only would have gone to thinking it better to reduce as many as they could: it was not practicable to do it all at once, it was done by degrees, and there were troops of the company ready to replace them.

Did you understand lord Wellesley to mean the reduction of the whole of the nabob's troops?—I cannot say positively that that was his meaning; there, perhaps, might have been some troops they might not think it necessary to reduce; but I have every reason to believe he thought the more of them that were reduced the better; that is pretty nearly what I said before in another answer. I rather think that was his opinion; it is very difficult for me to say what passed in another man's mind.

Did the communication you had with lord Wellesley convey that; can you say positively that he meant that?I cannot speak positively to that; I think that was his idea, that as many should be reduced as they could conveniently get rid of, and that the deficiency should be supplied by the company's troops. I do not know whether so many in number.

At the time the treaty of Lucknow was concluded in 1798, did not you understand that a reduction of a considerable part of the nabob's army was necessary to enable him to pay the subsidy of seventy-six lacs of rupees ?I have not at this moment in my recollection what the extent of his army was, but I should have thought, and I think now, that a reduction of them was beneficial; I think it possible there might bave been some reduction, but I cannot charge my memory:

On, or about, the 25th of January, 1799, did not marquis Wellesley write to you, from Madras, respecting the affairs at Oude?-I recollect receiving a letter from lord Wellesley, and from Madras, respecting the affairs at Oude, the affairs I have been lately questioned on; but I do not recollect the date, and,

indeed, I may add, I should not have recollected even that I had received such a letter, if by mere accident it had not been put into my hand in this house, amongst the printed papers, for I had not seen it, neither had I the least recol lection of that letter.

Do you remember that, in that letter, (without adverting to the date) his lordship requested you to dispense with the services of colonel Scott, and to send him to Lucknow to assist Mr. Lumsden in those reforms which were proposed? -I have seen the letter in the printed papers, and I recollect perfectly the letter, but I cannot speak now as to the date; the letter will explain itself. I have not in my recollection those conversations to which the letter is supposed to allude, nor had I the letter in my recollection until I saw it.

At the time that lord Wellesley wrote to you from Madras, did not perfect tranquillity prevail in Oude?— Upon my word I cannot recollect whether it did, or not, at that moment; it is clearly in my recollection that, at different periods, there was a want of tranquillity, but I cannot recollect whether, at that moment, that was the case.

You do not recollect from the contents of that letter?-No; it is entirely out of my recollection whether there was or

was not.

Do you remember furnishing lord Wellesley with any report as to the instructions you furnished to colonel Stott on his proceeding to Lucknow ?—I really have not them in my recollection; if I did, they are probably somewhere to be found.

[Withdrew.

After some time Sir Alured Clarke was again called in.

Was it communicated by marquis Wellesley to the council of Bengal the part that he instructed you to act in conveying your ultimate instructions to colonel Scott?-Upon my word I cannot recollect whether it was or was not. I was at that time in the government of Bengal during my lord Wellesley's absence; I do not recollect whether it was or was not, but I am sure colonel Scott could not have been sent to Lucknow without its being with the knowledge of the whole council. I have no recollection, at this moment, whether it was or was not, but I do not think it likely.

Almost immediately after colonel Scott arrived at Lucknow, was not Mr. Lumsden removed, or did he not resign his situation, and was succeeded by colo. nel Scott?-I must speak with a very faulty recollection of it. I presume he was removed, for he went soon after, first, to aid Mr. Lumsden to carry into execution the plan, which I understood the vizier and lord Wellesley both wished to be carried into execution, of reducing the vizier's troops and replacing them by some of the British troops. Colonel Scott, who was adjutant-general of the Bengal army, and was living with me, I could very ill spare, but I thought he would be so useful that I did spare him. I cannot recollect whether it was on any communication with the other members of the council; I have said it must be, but I did not at that noment advent to the circumstance that he went

as an assistant to Mr. Lumsden at first, and he might go under my orders as a military officer.

Did you ever hear the reasons for Mr. Lumsden's removal or resignation?I must have heard at the time the reasons, but they are quite out of my memory. I rather think there was reason to suppose that part of this plan would be carried on by colonel Scott better, and that there might be some coolness between him and the nabob.

You embarked for England late in February, 1801?—I did.

After lord Wellesley's return to Bengal in 1799, and, previous to the time of your embarkation, did he make any intimation to you, as far as you remember, of his intention to deprive the vizier of the rights he possessed in virtue of the treaty of 1798-I do not recollect his ever making such a declaration to me. What rights does the question mean?

The possession of his troops, his hereditary dominions, and his subjects?— No; I do not recollect any such declaration, or any conversation on the subject, between lord Wellesley and my self. I recollect repeated conversations, and repeated acts, with respect to the reduction of his troops, and the orders given for others to supply them.

Did his lordship communicate to you, either privately or as a member of the council, the correspondence his lordship held with the late colonel Scott? I must speak still under the same doubt. I have every reason to believe lord Wel

lesley did occasionally correspond with colonel Scott.

Did his lordship communicate to you, either privately or as a member of the council, the correspondence between his lordship and the late colonel Scott up to the time of your embarkation?— Am I to understand by the correspondence the whole of the correspondence? I mean the whole of the correspondence?- Upon my word I cannot say whether he did or not. He frequently spoke to me on the subject of the nego tiations going on, but it is impossible for me to say whether he communicated the whole of it.

What reason did he assign, if he assigned any, for keeping that correspondence from the consultations of coun cil?-He never assigned any reason to me for it that I recollect.

The correspondence received by you from the foreign princes and residents, whilst president of the council, did you not think yourself bound to record immediately on the consultations of council?- Certainly, if they were of that nature that made it necessary. There was a sort of correspondence with the different princes of the country that was much of it very trifling-merely complimentary, and things of that kind. I cannot recollect what all those were,nor can I charge my memory particularly with respect to any time; but I take for granted every thing, which it was necessary to lay before the council, I did.

All letters as to negotiations between foreign princes and the Bengal governinent, did you not think it your duty to record in the council?- Any that I received; but I am not aware that I received any during the short period you are asking to, while I was governorgeneral, or afterwards, in lord Wellesley's absence.

Did you not embark for England, in February, 1801, without being aware that lord Wellesley had determined to obtain, if possible, for the company, possession of the whole of Oude; or, failing in that, a cession of territory con prising one-half of the vizier's domi nions?I certainly did not know that lord Wellesley had such intentions.

As a member of the council, were you not entirely ignorant of such an intention when you embarked?--I have said before that I had no knowledge of

his

his having any such intention, certainly

not.

You were commander-in-chief in 1798 and 1799, when Zeinauu Shah approached towards Lahore? Yes, I was, cer

tally.

Was not that chief considered, in India, as an enemy to the British power?-We certainly considered him as such at the period mentioned.

Have you not heard that colonel Malcolm was deputed to the court of Vespian purposely to prevail on the king of Persia to make war on Zemaun hab, to prevent his approach to Lahore?—I cannot charge my memory particularly with that being the object of his embassy, I believe there were other objects, but I am speaking now entirely out of recollection of 11. There were objects of another kind, I think, also that he had to effect; if that was one of them I do not know that it was.

Was not the object of Zemaun Shah's expedition generally considered to be for the conquest, and the destruction of the British possessions in Hindostan

-I do not know that it was for that only. It was for the invasion of Hindostan, and the first impression would probably have been made upon the province of Oude.

Did not the province of Oude lie between him and the possessions of the company in Hindostan ?—I do not know that it lay directly between, but it was the course he probably would have

taken.

Considering the immense increase made to the subsidy, by the treaty of 1798, at which you assisted, did you imagine that, in addition, the whole, or any part, of the army sent to the frontiers, under Sir James Craig, would also be charged to the expense of the vizier?-1 have not in my recollection, at this moment, the words of the treaty, but I rather think it was intended that, if any very great additional expense was created, that it would be necessary for him to bear a part of it; but I speak in some doubt, the treaty itself will explain that; I think I have not read the treaty since the period of my leaving India.

When the subsidy was increased from fifty-five and a half lacs of rupees to seventy-six, that is from six hundred thousand pounds to a million annually, was it not in your contemplation that

the company was to keep up a force suf ficient for the complete and entire defence of Oude? That is really out of my recollection

If a demand of five hundred thousand pounds had been made on the vizier in addition to the subsidy of seventy-six lacs of rupees in the same year that he mounted the throne, beyond the sum he was to pay for his advancement to the musnud, and the repairs of Allahabad; do you not think that would have been an infraction of the treaty of 1798? [Withdrew.

The committee determined that that question should not be put.

Sir Alured Clarke was again

called in.

After some time Sir Alured Clarke
was again called in, and the
question proposed.

It is so much out of my recollection the words of the treaty that was entered into with the vizier, that I really am at a loss to answer that question.

I mean to ask, if the whole, or the greater part, of the Bengal army, the expense of which would be nearly two millions per annum, was drawn to the western frontier of Oude, to repel the invasion of Zemaun Shah, or any invader, it was reasonable or right that the vizier should be called upon for the expense?—I really forget the stipulations of the treaty; if I could possibly conceive that so great an expense might be incurred if the whole army was taken there, it would go beyond the bounds of reason that he should pay it all; but I do not know that there has been such a case; if it is asked as an opinion, that is the only opinion I can give on the subject.

Do you remember what is the amount of the expense of the Bengal army?— It is impossible my recollection should serve me to answer that question: it is a thing which might be easily found by an inquiry of the court of directors,

but