pursued by that government, to interfere and compel a complete change in that government by force or otherwise? -Certainly not, unless it was under the controul in some measure of the company, if you mean a free independent state, such as the Mahrata state, or Be ar, governed as it has been before it fell into our hands.

Did you conceive, as a member of the council, that it was your bounden daty, supposing it to be your opinion that the police and government of Oude was cxtremely delective, to resort to every means in your power to compel a reform, and such a reform in the government of that country as you pleased to dictate ?— I certainly, as an individual member, if that question had been put to me, should have said that it would depend enurely on the circumstances; particular circumstances must be stated to justify me inform ing the opimon how far I should think it right to exercise the power of the East India company over any particular state, whether Oude or any other.

Give a general auswer to the question, what you conceived to be your duty as a member of the council, with respect to Oude, in consequence of your connection with that country, to compel such a reform in the government of Oude as to you and the council might appear right?

I should certainly think it proper to endeavour to produce such a reform by every practicable and proper means; though I should at the same time be very much disposed to think that no simple remonstrances would have produced any effect whatever.

You have stated that you should think it would have been your duty, as a member of the council, to endeavour to produce a reform by every practicable and proper means; do you think every means which would be practicable, would be proper ?-No, I certainly cannot go that length.

From the period of your first arrival in Bengal to the present, did you ever understand there was any general opinion in that country, otherwise than that the nabob was totally and completely under the subjection of the British government ?I certainly always so considered him, and in my seat at the board, my conduct and opinions there were given in consequence of so considering him.

lah, Asoph ul Dowlah, or Saadut Ali, without the direct interference and control of the British government?- I should think not, as far back as I am authorised to speak; till I was in the su preme council, of course I had no regular communication of what was done with respect to Oude by the Bengal go

vernment.

Do you recollect that the nabob Saadut Ali is indebted to the protection and support of the East India company for his life and subsistence for a long period of year?-He certainly is.

Can you mention who was the first of Saadut Ali's family who was vizier nabob of Oude?-The father of Sujah Dowlah.

Then Saadut Ali is the grandson of the first vizier nabob of Oude?—Yes. Can you remember who the grandfa ther was?-Sapta Jung,

Can you remember from whence he came?-He came at first from Persia. In what profession?-A mere adven

turer.

Did he obtain the protection of the great Mogul, and was he not the first person who had the revenues of Oude, as the dependent of the Mogul court?— Yes.

Was the country of Oude conquered by the English?—Yes.

You considered it as a conquered country?—Yes.

Do you remember that Rohilcund was conquered by the British arms?— Yes.

And that it was left in the possession of Sujah Dowlah ?—It was.

Do you know who paid Saadut Ali's stipend, or pension, of forty thousand: year, from the time he left, till the time he ascended the Musnud?—I think he received his pension from his brother; but the records will shew that in a moment.

Do you know that any police has been introduced into the reserved territory of the nabob of Oude; can you say that any police has been introduced into that half of Oude which has been reserved by the treaty of 1801 ?—I certainly cannot speak to that subject any more than I can to the History of China; it is, that I have no opportunity of knowing.

Do you know that any police has been introduced into that reserved territory?— I do not know that there has not been any. What year did you arrive in Bengal?

Was

Was 1783 the first period of your going to Lucknow ?—It was.

From that period up to the conclusion of 1798, when the treaty was concluded between the vizier and Sir John Shore, the police continued the same?—I should rather think it became worse progressively; it was very bad, nothing hardly could be worse than it was, when I was there myself; I have no reason to believe it altered for the better after that period.

During the time you were at Lucknow, can you state any act of cruelty which was committed to your knowledge?-A great number; I could stand at this bar, and recite them till two in the morning.

Exercise your memory a little to give the committee some instance?-I will give an instance of a most atrocious robbery and murder, committed within a very short distance of my own habitation; I could refer to the procedure, as a regular account of it was written by the then resident at Oude to the governor general in council; that report will be a much better proof to this committee of the truth of the circumstance, than my stating it on my own knowledge.-It happened, during my residence at Oude, that we were one night a company assembled at supper, when a native, a servant of one of the company, rushed in and informed us, that banditti were plundering and murdering at the house of a banker, within fifty yards of where we were sitting. It happened that the officer who commanded the resident's guard, was one of the party; he immediately rose, as we all did, and taking along with him the resident's guard, went to the place; I accompanied him, and so did several other gentlemen present. As we approached the house, the whole street was strewed with bodies, which had been cut down; when we entered the house, we found it had been completely plundered, a very large sum of money carried off, and a most shocking spectacle presented itself to us of those who had been murdered, in order to prevent, as we suppose, any intelligence being given till the purpose was finally effected; for they left persons lining the streets, who murdered every person who attempted to pass those streets till they had completely gutted the house, and carried off this plunder, and left them then with their arms cut through, their legs cut off, and some killed outright. It appeared next morn

ing on enquiry, that this was a large banditti, four hundred in number, who had had the audacity, so little were they apprehensive of interruption from the police of Lucknow, to march through the city with lights, with flambeaus and ladders; and notwithstanding the alarm this must have created, they had retired without being opposed in any form by the officers appointed to guard the city.

That was in 1783 or 1784?—Yes.

When did you become a member of the supreme council?—I was appointed a member of the supreme council by the court of directors some time in May 1790.

Who was then governor-general?— Lord Cornwallis.

Did you ever think it necessary to state that atrocious transaction to Lord Cornwallis?-Undoubtedly, it is on the records; the whole history of that transaction, and of all the other breaches of police, were transmitted to the governor general in council, and made a part of the records.

I do not mean to state that

I ever individually stated this fact to Lord Cornwallis.

As a member of council, you cannot take upon you to say that you ever men. tioned that circumstance to Lord Cornwallis?-No, nor a hundred other transactions to which I was witness.

As a member of the council at Bengal, did you ever recommend to Lord Cornwallis a reform of the affairs of Oude?-Undoubtedly, these things have been the subjects of conversation with Lord Cornwallis, with Lord Teignmouth, and with every gentleman in the supreme council; I as well as every other member of the council had nothing more at heart than to produce such a reform if it had been practicable.

To what do you attribute the abstain ing from introducing a reform into Oude when the atrocities were so enormous?-If the records are consulted, it will be found that every possible effort and endeavour has been made from the time I left Lucknow, in 1783, to introduce such a reform into the dominions of Oude; the council have had nothing more at heart than, if possible, to produce such a re

form.

Do you know any thing of their or dering troops to effect such a reform?— I do not remember any circumstance of the kind.

From your knowledge of the constitution of government, and the dominions of

of Oude, do you understand it to be a state dependent upon, and under the protection of, the British government?-I certainly have always so understood it. You understood it, then, to be a constitution and government dependent upon and subject to the superintending power and protection of the British territory ? I did so understand it; it is also my opinion, that the territory of Oude, and the prince of Oude, could not exist many months unless it was so protected by the English government; it would be overrun by external enemies, or destroyed by internal rebellion, I should think certainly within a twelvemonth after we should have withdrawn our protection from it.

Did you in your situation in India, consider that the conduct of the Governor-general, Marquis Wellesley, relating to the government of Oude, was such as became necessary even to protect the existence of the state of Oude, as a government in order, in tranquillity, and in continued existence-I am not acquainted with any thing which happened since my return in 1801.

Were you during your residence in India, personally acquainted with any part of Marquis Wellesley's conduct, as governor-general of Bengal, respecting the territory of Oude?-Undoubtedly, every part of his conduct respecting the territory of Oude, from the time of his arrival till the time I left Bengal, I was acquainted with.

From the opinion that you formed, and had the means of forming, respecting the conduct of Marquis Wellesley, while you did reside there, and possessed the information you did, do you think that his conduct, as governor general, respecting the government of Oude, was such as tended to the interest of the British governinent in India, and to the protection of the government of Qude-In the highest degree.

During your residence in that country, at the period I am speaking of, did it come to your knowledge that any act was done by his orders or authority contrary to what you take to be his duty as governor-general in India?-Certainly not, or it would have been my duty to have stated such deviation on the records of council.

And you never did, on the records of council, state any objection to any con duct which came to your knowledge of his proceedings in India?-I did not; the

committee are aware these are questions which go directly to implicate me in the charges urged against Marquis Wellesley; however, I am conscious that whilst I held my situation in India, I always acted for the good of my country to the fullest of my power, and I have not the smallest objection to answer every question which may be put.

As a member of the council, had you any opportunity in council of offering your dissent to a proposition made to the nabob of Oude for ceding the whole of his territories, or, in the event of his not doing that, at least the half? -I have not for the reasons I have already assigned, that I never was present from the month of July or August till my return from India, except on one day, which was the last council held before my departure, when I attended merely to give in my resignation.

Do you recollect having signed a let ter on the 31st of August, 1801, to the court of directors?-Certainly it is impossible I can recollect that out of the hundred thousand letters I have signed.

Whether, knowing repeatedly what the conduct of the governor-general was, in respect to Oude, and what was passing in council, if you had felt a material disapprobation to that conduct, you should not have thought yourself bound to have gone to the council, to have seen the proceedings there, and to have recorded your dissent ?-Most undoubtedly I should.

Do you remember, from the period of your first going to India till your return to this country, that there ever was a governor-general who consulted his council more confidentially or more fully than Marquis Wellesley?-Certainly not.

Whether the members of former councils were consulted more in the private business carried on, than the Marquis Wellesley consulted his council during the periods you were acquainted with it?

I believe not; but I wish it not to be understood that the most confidential communications did not exist between the other governors - general and the councils; I had the happiness to enjoy the confidence of Lord Cornwallis and Sir John Shore, in an equal degree.

Did you, from the month of July, 1798, to November, 1799, a complete period of sixteen months, ever see Lord Wellesley twice?-He was at Madras, I be lieve, during almost the whole of that tune.

From

to all his difficulties, and increased by their operations the disorders of his country.

What was supposed to be the rates at which those loans were transacted?—I had no particular opportunity of knowing, but I understood they were at the rate of near three per cent. per month." [Withdrew.

JOHN RYLEY, Esq. Called in, and Examined. In 18c1 were you in India ?-I was. How many years have you been in India ?-Ten years.

In what situation?-During that time I have been in several situations.

From a writer up to a junior merchant?-Latterly to that of a senior mer

chant.

You filled the different situations before coming to be appointed a collector? -Of course.

When were you appointed a collector?-In 1800, I think.

Were not you mostly occupied out of Calcutta, and very much among the natives? I was only one year in Calcutta,, I mean resident there; I was there occasionally of course.

When were you appointed judge and magistrate of the Etawah district, and the country formerly belonging to the nabob, now called the Ceded Provinces ?-In February, 1803..

Had you many opportunities of knowing the sentiments of the higher orders of the natives in that district?-As I was appointed in February, 1803, to the office of judge and magistrate of the Etawah district, and continued in it till 1805, of course I had frequent communication with the natives.

You took opportunities, did you not, of knowing their sentiments ?-I cannot positively say I took opportunities of knowing their sentiments; I had no inducement to enquire their sentiments; of course those persons who did business with me I was open to.

Are not the lower people in the Ceded Provinces completely influenced by the higher order of society?I certainly think they are influenced by the higher orders of society, because in that part of the country a perfect feudal system existed.

State your opinion of the sentiments of the Zemindars and higher orders of the people; were they attached to our government during the whole period you

were judge and magistrate of the Etawah district?-Generally s, eaking, I believe the higher orders of people in our dis trict, as far as I could learn their sentiments, were not at all well inclined to the British government.

Do you not believe that they are ripe for a revolt if a favourable opportunity should offer?-They certainly shewed that disposition once or twice during the time I held that office.

Do you mean to state that the principal Rajahs and Zemindars, in the district of which you were a magistrate, were particularly inimical to the British government?-The principal Zemindars shewed a spirit of revolt, and those Zemindars of course must have been inimical to the British government.

Did you ever state that opinion to the government?-Yes, I did; I will not say that I mentioned that they had generally imbibed a spirit of opposition to the British government, but those principal Zemindars who did shew a disposition to revolt, I did report to the government, which will be found on the record.

To what do you attribute that disposition to revolt on the part of those Zemindars?-I attribute it to their being deprived of that power and influence they possessed, previous to that country having been taken under the British go

vernment.

Have they not shewn a most marked disapprobation, even to an inclination to revolt, in consequence of the regulations introduced into the Ceded Provinces ?Certainly; it was from the introduction of those regulations that they were dissatisfied; I suppose that must have been the cause of their revolt.

Do you not know that in 1803 the Bri tish troops received a check at a place called Shakoabad ?-Yes, they did on the fourth or fifth of September, 1803.

On that occasion did not the principal and the most powerful Zemindars of the country shew a general spirit of revolt? -I can only answer with respect to the Zemindars in the district under my authority; several of them there shewed a spirit of revolt, and opposed the British arms sent against them.

Do you know captain Martin White of the Bengal army?—Yes, I do.

Do you know him to be a gentleman sincerely attached to the natives, and versed in their language and customs, and manners?—I know he is a gentleman very well versed in the language and customs

of