Mr. AKAKA. Mr. Jack, you represent the region of 56 villages and 13,500 people. What is your position in the Association of Village Council Presidents?

Mr. JACK. I am the president of that organization.

Mr. AKAKA. How many members are on this council?

Mr. JACK. The members are all of the people residing in the region, I think it totals some 13,500 people, but it's more than that now. Mr. AKAKA. It reads council presidents. Are these several presidents on the council?

Mr. JACK. AVCP is composed of a board of directors who are presidents of the village councils, that's the board structure of AVCP, but the membership is all the people that reside in the region.

Mr. AKAKA. How many regions and groups of people are there in your association?

Mr. JACK Under the (indiscernible) we had established 12 regional corporations in the State of Alaska. So, there are 12 in the State of Alaska.

Mr. AKAKA. Am I correct when I say that your people are allowed only to hunt and fish on the village corporate lands and nowhere else? Mr. JACK. At this time, ah, since the legislation (indiscernible) and since the village selections and regional selections, ah, the Government has allowed hunting, basically all over the region.

Mr. AKAKA. Of the 15,000 people you represent, how many of them receive income from work that they perform?

Mr. JACK. Sir, I cannot give you those figures but the only people in the villages who have an income is the postman or maybe a school aid. It's very limited. The rest of the people in the villages are seasonal, commercial fishing and that type of thing.

Mr. AKAKA. Thank you very much, Mr. Jacks.

Mr. LEGGETT. Mr. Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Jack, do you have a definition of subsistence that you use?

Mr. JACK. The definition that, it's long been a question of how do you define subsistence, what the values of that are means what our needs are. The committee lists the moral right of people in the region to take the game on a need basis.

Mr. PATTERSON. That would be your definition, to take the game on a need basis?

Mr. JACK. Yes.

Mr. PATTERSON. Would that apply to any person or persons or group of persons whose need for—

Mr. JACK. That's the general consensus of the people.

Mr. PATTERSON. And then how do you deal with one, who say, is half on a cash basis and half on a subsistence basis? Can you count proportionately? How do you deal with such a thing?

Mr. JACK. I don't know how to answer that.

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, do some of your villages engage in commercial hunting, as well?

Mr. JACK. Hardly any. There was a situation that came up at the last conference to allow the people (indiscernible) in Anchorage, Fairbanks, and Juneau.

Mr. PATTERSON. OK, in fishing, though, you do do commercial fishing; is that correct?

Mr. JACK. Yes.

Mr. PATTERSON. So that would provide some sort of cash basis for some of the villages?

Mr. JACK. Yes, it would. But I would submit to this committee that the cash that is received is used for staples.

Mr. PATTERSON. Are you familiar with a land bank kind of program or leasing program or are you familiar with those terms?

Mr. JACK. Somewhat but I would not be able to answer any questions.

Mr. PATTERSON. Well let me give you an example. Suppose some areas were designated wilderness and that because of the migratory nature of the animals and the usual hunting techniques of the Natives, you were excluded from hunting in a particular area under the Wilderness Act-yet on the other hand, suppose that some areas of lands, the Native-owned lands, there was a need for protection at certain times, such as different seasons of the year. Would you foresee the use of land banks or tradeoffs between the Federal Government and some of the villages in regard to preservation of some wildlife?

Mr. JACK. Sir, that is a lot of suppositions and I'm not going to be able to answer your question.

Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you. I have no further questions.

Mr. LEGGETT. Thank you, Mr. Patterson, Thank you, Mr. Jack, you've been very helpful to the committee.

Mr. POLLOCK. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. LEGGETT. Mr. Pollock.

Mr. POLLOCK. I wonder if Mr. Jack might be able to explain to the committee the levels of control or of management in the villages. Do you have more than one level? Do you have a corporation president and a village chief also, in most of the villages?

Mr. JACK. Yes.

Mr. POLLOCK. Could you tell the committee the relationship between these entities, and what happens when they are in conflict?

Mr. JACK. There are basically two entities, actually three, one is the village corporation (indiscernible); the second entity is a secondclass city that is incorporated under the Stat's laws for the State of Alaska, and the third one is the regional council.

Mr. POLLOCK. Do they interchange? Do they work together?
Mr. JACK. Yes.

Mr. POLLOCK. Do you have members sitting on each of these that are the same person?

Mr. JACK. More or less interchange of the same people, generally. Mr. POLLOCK. Thank you very much.

Mr. LEGGETT. Very good. Mr. Gutting?

Mr. GUTTING. You have spoken of the need of giving preference to certain subsistence users. Assuming such a preference were given and a system set up to administer it, what should be the-at what level should the system operate? Should it operate, on a refuge-by-refuge basis with the arrangements being made by individual refuge managers and the people in the area, or should it be made on a region-by-region basis, or some other basis? What should be the framework in which these kinds of decisions are worked out?

Mr. JACK. Sir, I would recommend that there be Region Subsistence Councils to determine that.

Mr. GUTTING. Should these regions be coextensive with the existing regional corporation boundaries?

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Mr. JACK. The Regional Subsistence Council can only come within the region (indiscernible).

Mr. LEGGETT. Very good, thank you very much, Mr. Jack, you've been very helpful to the subcommittee. OK, our next witness is Mr. Terry Palczer.

STATEMENT OF TERRY PALCZER

Mr. PALCZER. With the committee's permission I'll submit my written testimony at a later date.

Mr. LEGGETT. Very good, and you represent whom?

Mr. PALCZER. I'll indicate that here in just a second, a private citizen.

My name is Terry Palczer and my residence is 111 Nenana Road, Fairbanks, Alaska

Mr. LEGGETT. Speak up into that microphone if you don't have a written text.

Mr. PALCZER. My residence address is 111 Nenana Road, Fairbanks, Alaska. I've been an Alaskan resident for 9 years and here in the Fairbanks area for the past 8 years.

My background is engineering geology, business and economics. I'm presently project manager of the Alaskan Resource Science Corp., a private engineering firm which has its parent office in Tulsa, Okla., with the Resources Sciences Corp., which is the largest engineering design (indiscernible) in the United States.

Presently I serve on the assembly of the North Star Borough, the board of the Fairbanks Chamber of Commerce and serve on the Statewide Board of Assistance for the Management of Alaska Lands. I'm also a member of the Alaska Conservation Society.

I'd like to recognize the committee for, or thank the committee for coming to Alaska, particularly during the recess because I'm sure your constituents are probably looking for you there. And also, I hope this testimony of mine here is of a constructive nature. I'm sure that when you get to southeast that you'll find some more (indiscernible) as well as Anchorage and Fairbanks.

I'd like to compliment the committee on their reception in Alaska, I'm frankly impressed, and the committee chairman on the manner in which he has conducted these hearings. I bring this information to you from Fairbanks and also part of it from Anchorage.

My comments will be brief, dealing primarily with methodology of implementation of (indiscernible). I feel that the (indiscernible) that's been given to you in the past few days is credible and, but by no means is it complete in the development point of view or the preservation of conservation point of view.

I urge further interchange of the staff committee and private individuals on a one-for-one basis and some kind of method be set up for this.

Timing and funding is needed to obtain (indiscernible) proposals. In the interim a means of defining what I call national interest needs should be established so that any proposal that is implemented, resources that are needed on a national interest need are not restricted in the interim. And also, that these areas can be utilized not necessitating (indiscernible) action but in timely response to these needs.

In particular a (indiscernible) for minerals will become our next crisis from the Middle East and still we're told (indiscernible) the energy crisis.

I might also indicate that the resources are not for utilization of Alaska necessarily, we use a very small portion of the resources that are here. These are for utilization by the lower 48 and or (indiscernible).

During the assessment phase all resource values should be identified, not only the mineral resources and so forth, but the fish and wildlife refuge resources.

Flexibility for easements for access to Federal lands, State lands, Native and other private lands should be preserved in existing rights and future potential designations. A means of this access should be provided without congressional delegation but with an organization as designated by Congress.

A timeframe should be implemented for these programs that meets the needs of a realistic assessment effort.

As a means of balancing the intent of the wilderness designation, possibly an economic impact statement could be legislated in order to provide input for the national interest needs. Included in this economic impact statement, for instance, should be the balance of payments and security for a long term. And finally, sufficient detail of a comprehensive enumeration of procedures should be outlined and not left to interpretation by the implementing agencies. I feel this is necessary to prevent conflicts between the Alaska Statehood Act and the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. Also then, we should not be cutting up the State into a number of necessarily small (indiscernible) boards or whatever commission is set up for the sake of cutting it up. in smaller size as (indiscernible).

To Alaskans this is not a numbers contest but a determination of the highest and best use of the Federal lands in the national interest. And finally, I have just a few general observations that are subjective in nature. There was a conflict in subsistence (indiscernible) by the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act and you'll also note that in Alaska (indiscernible) the lower 48 and (indiscernible) as individuals. I feel that Senator Stevens' bill is taking down to the local level an organization for joint land management and I think the Alaska delegation has very similar ideas on the D-2 issue and perhaps (indiscernible) process their consensus will again come to focus.

I would like to make myself personally available to the committee and to the staff in providing data so that you can make a decision on a constructive basis.

Mr. LEGGETT. Very good, thank you very much, Mr. Palczer, that's very helpful to the subcommittee. What you're suggesting is that as we weigh the conservation ethics that some way we quantify the economic end of it and balance it. There are some folks as you know, who feel that you can't weigh economics because of the conservation environment and that one necessarily has to come down in favor of natural values. There are some natural values that are so tremendous that it's quite true, you can't necessarily weigh a lot of economic values against those. There are those that would look at the whole State of Alaska in terms that the whole State is so magnificant that very little can be weighed against that economic vein, so, that's our challenge.

Mr. Forsythe?

Mr. FORSYTHE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I have no questions. Mr. LEGGETT. Mr. Akaka?

Mr. AKAKA. Thank you very much, Terry, for coming and testifying here. I have no questions.

Mr. LEGGETT. Mr. Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. LEGGETT. Counsel?

[Counsel had no questions.]

Mr. LEGGETT. Very good, thank you very much. OK, we now have Amos Swarner.

STATEMENT OF AMOS SWARNER

Mr. SWARNER. My name is Amos Swarner, I live at 312 (indiscernible) in Fairbanks, Alaska. I've, as of last February 25, I've been here 40 years. I am a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none. I don't have a written report but I'm mostly interested in the management of game.

When I get up to speak I usually say the wrong things so you folks will have to accept that, but there is a number of things that I would like to speak about and I noticed that one of you folks said that Alaska had a fragile environment and I think those words have been put in your ears by someone who doesn't know. I think we have some areas where the tundra, in the north, where it is rather fragile.

I came off a trip over the Chilkoot Pass where the old timers came into this country in 1898 and when I finished up this hike, of course, I saw pictures where in those days they (indiscernible) 7,000 (indiscernible) and the Canadian Government made each one that came into Alaska bring at least 1,000 pounds of supplies or they wouldn't let him in. And if they let 7,000 folks, and I'm not, I don't have (indiscernible) for 7,000 boats and most of those boats were made from timber in that area and you'd go down, and I've seen pictures, of course, of the area around Lake Bennett, where that country, where those men came over in the winter, waited until the spring to take off in the boats and they had that plainer than a pickchick (indiscernible). Now you go there today and you can't tell they've been there, it's all grown up and they say fragile? I don't know what they mean, but to me, where there were thousands of people going through those towns and unless someone gets in there real quick, the fact is it's too late, it's deterioriated. There's a few old boards, planks, nails. Where there were thousands of people in those days, you can't see any signs of it now.

So I think, I think that, after having lived here for 40 years, I've loved the climate, I've loved the outdoors, I canoe, I get back in, I work with the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, I retired 2 or 3 years ago and I spend most of my time on trips (indiscernible), but I also hear people that fly over the country and they'll see where some tracked vehicle has gone years ago and it's just something, you can see the shadow of the track and they'll say, look at those ugly earth scars. Let that guy get down there on the ground in a crash landing and try to follow those scars, he gets lost, he can't follow them. But yet flying over in the air when the sun is just right it looks maybe bad but those people that do all the talking never get out there,