was determined, I never was absent one hour, I think I may say one moment, from business, and I assure you I never heard those words, nor any thing like them, fall from any one of the Commissioners. As to the debate among the Commissioners about returning the private Estate, some hot words did pass, and I will take notice to you, if you please, of some of them. The gentleman on my left-hand did give very abusive language to one of the other Commissioners. Mr. Speaker. To whom? Mr. Annesly. To Mr. Trenchard. Another of the Commissioners said, he would battle it with us at the bar of the house of commons. Mr. Speaker. Who was that? Mr. Annesly. My lord Drogheda. 'Says sir F. Brewster, I have as good friends as you, meaning Mr. Trenchard, and we shall be as well heard there as you. Mr. Trenchard answered, I don't fear what you can do, if you won't be an evidence against me: The ill language sir Francis gave, forced that expression from him; the resentments were high, and the rest of the Commissioners then present endeavoured to pacify and make them friends. I own I then little suspected that sir Francis, who took the expression so ill, would have made good Mr. Trenchard's words at this bar; if I had, I should have taken more notice of what passed. There might be some other particulars that sir Francis has charged us with, which I may have omitted answering; if you please, sir, to remind me of them, I will give them the best answer I can. have acted such a part here; otherwise I should have been more observant thereof. But the particular expressions which some of us are charged with by the Evidence now given, are of so extraordinary a nature, that I could not easily have forgotten them; Flying in the 'face of the king,' is so great a reflection, and so foolish an expression, that I think I could not have passed it by without the censure it deserved. Sir, I do affirm to you upon my reputation, my credit, and all that is dear to me, that I never heard the least reflection upon the king by any of the Commissioners, either in their debates or otherwise, in execution of their authority. When I had the honour to be appointed by you one of your Commission, I naturally reflected upon the part I was to act in it, the many enemies I must in likelihood create upon a faithful discharge of my duty, as well amongst men in power, the grantees, as the purchasers, and others claiming under them; of which I had some knowledge, having been formerly in Ireland. However, I was resolved, upon a very short notice, not only to subject my own private concerns to disappointments, but to dispose of other mens business, with which in the way of my profession I was entrusted, to their best advantage in my absence. In discharge whereof I did act (and I hope it will appear I did so) with all imaginable integrity. And it will be my hard fortune, if after such my endeavours I should fall under your displeasure.-And as to what is alledged with respect to Mr. Harcourt, I do not remember that I ever mentioned his name upon any debate at our Board, whereby to influence any man in his judgment; nor indeed upon any other account except in private conversation, by drinking his health, and by expressing my- Mr. Trenchard. I was present at the deself with that gratitude which became ine to- bate about the private Estate, which was mawards one whom I had received particular ob- naged with great warmth, and much said on ligations from, and deserved well from me.-- both sides; but I do not remember one word I never had any Letter from Mr. Harcourt, which this gentleman speaks of, that was dithat took the least notice of the private Estate, rectly so said; I do own there were some nor indeed that related to the execution of our words that might give umbrage to this accusaCommission, except in one letter he said Ition with those that were resolved to misunmight easily imagine with what pleasure he derstand them. The occasion was this: my heard of the success of our labours, and that lord Drogheda, as I remember, or sir Rd. Levhe was glad to find by the account I gave him, ing, said, it would he fiying in the king's face to that the Forfeitures were likely to answer the report this Grant. Upon which one of the end for which we were sent over, and that was Commissioners replied; My lord, we have the only letter I received from him during my heard too much of this argument already, and stay in Ireland. Hearing abroad of such a let-it is time to have done with it; we were not ter being mentioned in the house, I looked all the letters I received from any of the gentlemen of this house during my stay in Ireland; but I own I am very unwilling to produce the letters of any person who favoured me with his correspondence, and do hope I shall not be obliged to it. Mr. Speaker. For that you will have the further pleasure of the house; but do you say you never heard of those words of Flying in 'the king's face,' or that your Commission did fly in the king's face? Mr. Annesly. From the time we first began to execute our Commission, till our power | Mr. Speaker. Mr. Trenchard, if you please to give the house an account of what you know of this matter? sent here to flatter, and if the enquiring into the mismanagement of the Forfeitures be a flying in the king's face, then our whole Commission is a flying in his face. It is not dishonour. ing, but vindicating his majesty, to shew he has been abused by ill men; and I doubt not but he will desert them when he has discovered it, as the best and wisest princes in all ages. have done.' More than this I do affirm, upon the reputation of a gentleman, and the word of an honest man, was not said whilst I was at the Board. Mr Speaker. Who said the words you have repeated? Mr. Trenchard. 'Twas I, sir. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Hamilton said any thing as to the flying in the king's face? You don't remember that Mr. Trenchard. I do affirm that Mr. Hamilton, to the best of my memory (and I think I could not mistake it) did not say any words relating to that matter, more than that since we had enquired into the private Estate, and it was known in both England and Ireland, we should be thought bribed and corrupt if we did not report it: But I am very sure he said no words dishonourable of his majesty; and if he had, I would have resented it at that time, as I suppose these gentlemen would have done, and called upon others to have taken notice of it. Mr. Speaker. What words did you hear said in your chamber? Mr. Trenchard. A great part of the time I was in that kingdom, I was confined to my chamber being sick, which I impute in a great measure to the fatigue of our Commission, dur. ing which time I had the favour to be visited sometimes with ten or a dozen in an evening, sometimes twice the number of the people of the best fashion in that country, and amongst the rest my own brethren often obliged me with their company; without doubt in this time many subjects were discoursed of, but the particulars of any one discourse I do not remember. I never treasure up what is said in private conversation; and if I did, I scorn to tell it. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Langford, you hear what the gentlemen have given an account of, it is of what passed between you about putting the private Estate into the Report, and whether upon my lord Drogheda's saying it would be a Flying in the king's face,' Mr. Hamilton answered, Our Commission flies in the king's 'face ?' Mr. Langford. I was present when this debate happened about the private Estate, and it was with a great deal of heat. It was objected by my lord Drogheda, that it would be a flying in the king's face to report the private Estate, and was not in our Commission. It was answered by Mr. Trenchard, we had that too often mentioned, to put us by the execution of this Commission; that we did not think the discovering abuses, a flying in the king's face; but that, on the contrary, we should do service to his majesty to lay the matter before him, that he might see how the Grants were disposed of, and how he was deceived in them, and he thought it was also necessary that both this house and the kingdom should know it. Mr. Speaker. What did Mr. Hamilton say? Mr. Langford. I did not hear him speak one word relating to the king, on this point. Mr. Speaker. Do you know of, any Letters from members of this house? Mr. Langford. No, sir, I had not the honour to be acquainted with many members; I had no Letter myself, nor did I see any. Mr. Speaker. You are accused about words of your own. Members. Do not ask him to that. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Hooper, you hear to what purpose you are called in. Mr. Hooper. Yes, I do, the whole matter seems strange to me; I have not been absent from the Board, except when I was sick at Limerick, one hour during the whole execution of this Commission: nor did I hear one word spoken reflecting upon his majesty, unless the insinuation, that doing our duty would be flying in the king's face, which I think was a great reflection upon him; and I think Mr. Trenchard has very well repeated his own words. │I am sure in substance they are the same. I am confident there was no Letter produced whilst I was at the board, from any member: And I believe by what conversation I had with the four commissioners, they never had any but what was fit to be produced; and for the substance of what Mr. Annesly and Mr. Trenchard have said, I know it to be true. I never heard Mr. Hamilton speak but with great honour of the king; and I do positively assert, to the best of my memory, he never said any such thing, as is alledged against him, at the board. I am confident I was present at all the debates about the private Estate, and do remember the three dissenting commissioners did immediately declare themselves against the inserting it in the report; three others that are present did as readily declare for it. So that Mr. Hamilton being in a manner solely left to determine this matter, complained that it was a great hardship upon him; for says he, my lord Ork-y is my relation and my friend, and besides I am a tenant to the private Estate, and it is very severe that the decision of this matter should lie upon me. He added, he should be very well pleased if the objection had been made sooner, and perhaps it might have had more weight with him; and truly, Mr. Speaker, it did not appear that there was one of the commissioners for above five months, but seemed to be peremptory for the reporting it, and accordingly sir Rd. Leving, and sir F. Brewster, joined in the Examination of many witnesses to the value of it at Limerick, and other places, till about five days before the power of the Commission ceased, when I moved the board that I might have some direction about that estate; and they made an order that I should immediately prepare the report, and put this in it. And Mr. Hamilton gave this reason when he joined with the commissioners, We have made so great a noise about this Estate, by examining so many people to the value, and sending for the rent-rolls of it, that it is now the public discourse that it will be reported; and I know the world must needs say that we are bribed and corrupted if we do it not: If it was possible, I should be glad to be excused; but I will rather lose my friend, I will rather lose my little Estate, than be thought guilty of Bribery and Corruption, and so gave his consent to the reporting of it. And for the words relating to flying in the king's face, I affirm they are false. ་ Sir Francis Brewster. I desire to speak a few words: You were pleased to ask me to give an account of what passed about the words, flying in the king's face,' and I find the house expects I should give an account of the whole that passed then: And I beg leave to say farther, that when the debate was about the private Estate, and those words were said about flying in the king's face, which my lord Drogheda, and others will take their oaths of, and I believe Mr. Hamilton will not deny; at the same time this was said by Mr. Trenchard, I heard you talk of flying in the king's face, I hope it is not flying in his face; but this I must tell you, it is a villainous grant, and ought to be exposed. Upon his speaking so, words arose, and that gentleman gave me ill language; but my language was not so bad, but he was forced to beg my pardon at the board, and I did not his; there he stands, let him deny it if he can. Mr. Trenchard. Sir, it is true, I did ask his pardon, and the occasion was this, as Mr. Annesly has acquainted you: I was provoked by his opprobrious language to reply, I feared him in no capacity but as an evidence, which he took very heinously: He repeated the word evidence; he said it was below a gentleman, below a man of honour, that such a one ought to be shun'd by all civil conversation, that I had better have stuck a dagger in his heart, than have called him an evidence; which now I think, Mr. Speaker, he won't resent so highly. This put the board in great disorder, and one of the commissioners whispered to me (I think it was the absent member, but I am sure all agreed in it) you know he is a very simple, old fellow; and though he gave the affront, you are in the wrong that you are capable of being angry with him. Truly, sir, I was conscious to myself that I was much to blame, to suffer myself to be provoked by him; and therefore, that the debate might be interrupted no longer, I asked his pardon. As to the other part I am charged with, that I called the grant of the private Estate a villainous grant, I directly deny it. It was possible I might say it was an extravagant grant, an unreasonable grant, an unconscionable grant, that the king was imposed upon and deceived in this grant, to give that for 5000l. per ann. which is worth between five and six and twenty thousand. These are words that amount to it, and might fall from me, but that I used the word villainous I positively deny; it is a word I don't use in my ordinary conversation, a word that never comes out of the mouth of a gentleman, and is false. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Annesly, it is understood that you received a letter from a worthy member of this house, Mr. Moore; and I think you told us that you had that letter, and all other letters that you had received from any members; I know not whether the house will order the rest, but that worthy member desires that his letter may be produced if you have it. Mr. Annesly. Mr. Moore has desired it, has he? Mr. Harcourt. I desire mine too. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Harcourt would have his too. Mr. Annesly. It is with great regret that I bring the letters of gentlemen here, especially those I received from any of the members of this house, who did me the honour to correspond with me at that time; though I think there is nothing written in them that any man need decline owning. And therefore, I think it will be more for their service to shew them, lest they may be suspected for what they don't deserve: If this house obliges me to lay them all before them, I must submit. Members. No, no. Mr. Speaker. But that gentleman desires you to produce his. And Mr. Harcourt also desires his. Mr. Annesly. I have but four in my hand, one from Mr. Moore, one from Mr. Ilarcourt, the rest are from Mr. Sloane. too. Mr. Sloane. I desire he will produce mine Mr. Speaker. I think you named but three, Mr. Sloane desires his too. Mr. Annesly. There are two from Mr. Sloane, one from Mr. Harcourt, and the other from Mr. Moore. Which letters Mr. Annesly delivered in to the Clerk. Mr. Annesly. I think it my duty to say something for Mr. Hamilton who is absent, and that is to assure you, that I never heard any words fall from him that were unbecoming a gentleman fit to be intrusted by you in this commission; and as for that which is said of Mr. Trenchard, it is false as to my hearing of it; I was present at all the debates, and I do not remember the least thing that ever came from him, reflecting upon the king or his grants, in the whole course of our conversation, otherwise than as he has told you himself. Votes thereon.] There having been divers groundless and scandalous aspersions cast upon Francis Annesly, John Trenchard, James Hamilton and Henry Langford, esqrs., Resolved," 1. That the said four commissioners have acquitted themselves, in the execution of that commission, with understanding, courage and integrity. 2. That sir Rd. Leving, another of the said cominissioners, has been the author of the said groundless and scandalous Reports upon the four commissioners beforementioned. 3. That the said sir Rd. Leving be committed to the Tower for the said offence." And he was committed accordingly. Two days after, the Bill For applying the Irish Forfeitures to the Use of the Public,' was read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole house. Upon this occasion, the courtiers made a motion, and caused the question to be put, That the said Committoe be empowered to receive a Clause for reserving a proportion of the Forfeited Estates in Ireland, to the disposal of his majesty; which passing in the negative, it was resolved on the 18th, That the advising, procuring, and pass ing the said grants of the Forfeited and other | Estates in Ireland, had been the occasion of contracting great Debts upon the nation, and levying heavy taxes on the people; that the advising and passing the said Grants was highly reflecting on the king's honour; and that the officers and instruments concerned in the procuring and passing these Grants had highly failed in the performance of their trust and duty." debt; and the taking just and effectual ways for lessening that debt and supporting the public credit, is what, in my opinion, will best contribute to the honour, interest and safety of this kingdom.” The Speaker having, five days after, reported this Answer, the Commons were so provoked by it, that they resolved, "That whosoever advised it, had used his utmost endeavours to create a Misunderstanding and Jealousy between the king and his people.” Ways and Means.] Col. Granville, (after Chairman of the Committee of the whole house, who took into consideration the State of his majesty's Revenue, and resolved, "That there had been a great loss in his majesty's Revenue of Excise; and, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole house, to whom the Land-Tax and Irish Forfeiture bills were committed, that they receive a clause to enable his majesty, for the improvement of the Revenue, to let to farm the Duties of Excise; but no member of the house to be a farmer or ma Resolutions on the Supply.] All this while the business of the Supply went on, and the Commons resolved, "That the sum of 76,3831.wards lord Granville,) was during this interval, now remaining in the Exchequer, on account of Tonnage and Poundage, with what the Subsidy should bring in more to the 25th of Dec. should be applied towards the payment of Seamens Wages, and that 220,000!. be borrowed at 5 per cent. for the same use: That 7,000 Seamen be the complement for the next year's Service; that 18,000l. be allowed for Bounty-Money to the Officers of the fleet; 90,000l. for the Extraordinary of the Navy; 300,000l. for Guards and Garrisons; and 25,000l. for the Office of Ordnance for the year 1700. They like-nager of Excise." wise made a Provision for Half-Pay to the Disbanded Officers; and laid 2s. in the pound Land-Tax" The Resumption Bill ordered.] Feb. 6. The commons resolved to raise money to discharge the Debt due to the Army; and a motion was made and the question put, "That the procuring or obtaining of Grants of Estates belonging to the crown, by any public minister concerned in the directing or passing such Grants, to or for their own use or benefit, while the nation lay under the heavy taxes of the late War, was highly injurious to his majesty, and prejudicial to the state, and a violation of the trust reposed in them." Whereon the court-party carried it in the negative; but at the same time, they gave their consent to an order for bringing in a Bill, To resume the Grants of all Lands and Revenues of the crown, and all Pensions granted by the crown since the 6th of Feb., 1684, and for applying the same to the use of the public.' 6 Votes of the House relating to the said Grants presented to his Majesty.] Feb. 15. The commons proceeded to consider further of the State of the Nation; and upon a very hot and long debate, it was resolved," That an Address be presented to his majesty, representing to him the Resolutions of this house of the 18th of January last, relating to the Grants of the Forfeited Estates in Ireland." The King's Answer.] Feb. 21. The Commons in a body having waited on the king, with their Address of the 15th of that month, in relation to the Irish Forfeitures, his majesty told them : "Gentlemen; I was not led by inclination, but thought myself obliged in justice to reward those who had served well, and particularly in the reduction of Ireland, out of the Estates forfeited to me, by the Rebellion there. The long war in which we were engaged did occasion great taxes, and has left the nation much in March 7. The Commons voted 1000l. to be paid the earl of Drogheda, Francis Aunesly, John Trenchard, James Hamilton, Henry Langford, esqrs; and to James Hooper, Secretary to the Commissioners; but to sir Rd. Leving and sir Francis Brewster, who had been at as much trouble as the rest, only 500l. each, in consideration of their Expences. They laid a Duty on Irish Hops, on East-India Goods, and continued the Duties on French Goods and wines, towards raising the Supply; and ordered a Clause in one of the Money-bills for the importing, Custom-free, a certain quantity of paper for printing Dr. Alix's Ecclesiastical History. They resolved, That a Supply be granted to his majesty towards the Payment of his proportion of the Debt owing to the prince of Denmark, and the moneys to be raised to be laid out in this kingdom, and settled upon the prince and princess, and their issue, according to their marriage-agreement. That an Address be presented to his majesty, that he would use his endeavour to procure other princes and states to pay their proportions of the said Debt. They agreed upon a Supply for the Coinage, for circulating Exchequer-Bills one year longer, for making good the Defici encies of the 3s. in the pound, in the 8th year of his majesty's reign, and of the Duty on stamped Paper and Parchment, granted in the same session of parliament; of the Malt-Tickets and Quarterly Poll granted in the next year, for paying off the Transport-Debt, and for payment of the Debt due to the Navy, and Sick and Wounded Seamen. Address relating to Capt. Kidd.] March 16. An Address was presented to the king, That Capt. Kidd might not be tried, discharged, or pardoned, until the next session of parliament; and that the earl of Bellamont, governor of New-England, might transmit over all Instructions and Papers taken with, or relating to the said Kidd; which his majesty complied with. Commissioners nominated for the Sale of the Irish Forfeitures.] March 26. The house having considered of the number, qualifications, and manner of chusing the Trustees for the Bill of Irish Forfeitures, resolved, "That the number of the said Trustees be thirteen: that no person be a Trustee who had any Office or profit, or was accountable to his majesty; or was a member of this house. And that the said Trustees be chosen by ballotting." The Bill of Resumption passes the Commons.] April 2. The Commons passed the Bill for granting an Aid to his majesty, by Sale of the Forfeited and other Estates and Interests in Ireland; and by a Land-Tax in England for the several purposes therein mentioned: and sent it to the lords for their concurrence. Proceedings of the House ordered to be printed.] April 8. The house ordered the Report of the Commissioners for Irish Forfeitures to be published; and that the Resolutions of the 18th of Jan. last, the Resolution of the 4th of April 1690, relating to the Forfeited Estates; his majesty's Speech to both houses, the 5th of Jan. 1690-1; the Address of the House to the king the 5th of February last; his majesty's Answer thereunto the 26th of the same February, and the Resolution of the house thereupon: and lastly, the Address of the house of commons, of the 4th of March, 1692-3, and his majesty's Answer thereunto, be also reprinted with the said Report. And resolved," That the procuring or passing exorbitant Grants, by any member now of the Privy-Council, or by any other that had been a Privy-Counsellor in this or any former reign, to his use or henefit, was a High Crime and Misdemeanour." Conferences between the two Houses thereon.] April 9. A Conference was managed between both houses, in which the lords did warmly insist on their Amendments; and the commons as vehemently maintained their disagreement with their lordships. The next day two Conferences were had on the same subject, and with as little success; at which the commons were so exasperated, that they ordered the lobby of their house to be cleared of all strangers; the back doors of the Speaker's Chamber to be locked up; and that the Serjeant should stand at the door of the house, and suffer no members to go forth; and then proceeded to take into consideration the Report of the Irish Forfeitures, and the List of the Lords of the Privy Council. The King desires the Lords to pass the Bill, which they do.] The king being informed of the high ferment the commons were in, and apprehending the consequences, sent a private Message (by the earl of Albemarle) to the lords, to pass the Bill without Amendments; which their lordships did accordingly, and acquainted the commons with it. Proceedings thereon in the House of Lords.] April 4. The question being put, Whether this Bill shall be read a second time? It was resolved in the affirmative. Contents 70; Not contents 23. Protests against the said Bill.] " Dissentient' Though there be nothing we most earnestly desire, and shall on all occasions, to the utmost of our power, more sincerely and heartily endeavour, than the preservation of a constant, right and good understanding and agreement between the two houses of parliament, as that on which the safety, welfare, and happiness of the nation, and the preservation of the wisest and noblest constitution of the world, Amendments made by the Lords to the Bill of does so much depend; yet we cannot but enter Supply.] On the other hand, the Court finding this our protestation against a second reading their party extremely weak in the house of com- of this bill. 1. Because, as we conceive, this mons, endeavoured to oppose the passing of bill does, in one part, tend very much to the althis complicated Bill in the house of lords; to teration (if not to the destruction) of that conwhich the majority of that illustrious assembly stitution which, we believe, the supply in the was inclined; some out of complaisance to the other part was given to preserve. 2. Because, king, and most of them because they looked we conceive, the tacking so many and different upon the tacking of one Bill to another, as an matters to a money bill, is not only contrary to innovation in parliamentary proceedings, and all the rules and methods of parliament, "but such as evidently tended to retrench, if not highly dangerous both to the undoubted prerowholly to take away the share the peers of Eng-gative of the crown, and right of this house, putland ought to have in the legislative authority. But because they could not reject the Bill without leaving the urgent necessities of the state unprovided, their lordships contented themselves to make great Amendments to that part of it that related to Forfeitures. The Commons having considered and unanimously disapproved the said Amendments, sent to desire a Conference with the lords thereupon; appointed a Committee to draw up Reasons to be offered to their lordships; resolved, That two days after, they would proceed in the further consideration of the Report given in by the Commissioners for Irish Forfeitures; and ordered a List of his majesty's Privy Council to be laid before the house. VOL. V. ting it, as we conceive, in the power of the commons to make any resolutions of their own as necessary as any supply given for the support or emergencies of state. 3. We know not how far the just right any private subject has to his estate may be endangered by the precedent of such a bill; for if the titles so many persons have to their estates may be determined by the commons in a money bill, without either oath or appeal, as, we conceive, in this bill they are, we cannot apprehend, how any single private subject, or minister of state, can, for the future, be safe; which must needs be a weakening the prince's hands, and the legal security every man now has to his estate. (Signed) Richmond, Ha 4 I |