is my opinion, that the Revenue of the crown is from the people, and the nation; as you have disposed of the one, you may dispose of the other; and so you may proceed to show how it shall be disposed of by act of parliament. Sir Christ. Musgrave. If this question be carried in the negative, where is your Revenue, and how shall the kingdom subsist? People are not apt to part with Money, and your vote will not make law, and it is no more law by your vote: it must be by act of parliament; and the greatest security to the crown is, not to put that question, but to bring in a Bill. Sir Tho. Lee. If we bring in a Bill, it must be a bill to grant a Revenue; and it is not to begin here, but from the whole house. It is most proper and natural to put the question, Whether the Revenue be in the king? and then the house to go into a grand committee. I have heard the gentlemen of the long robe with great attention; but one thing sticks with me: there is a great difference betwixt what was anciently, and now; formerly the crown subsisted by lands of its own, but now by what arises out of the subject. Mr. Pollerfen. There are no rules of law to distinguish one sort of inheritance of the crown, and another. King James had the right in him, and his heirs and successors had it, and no distinction in law of his political and natural capacity. If an estate be granted for life to king James, there is no distinction and limitation of estates betwixt grants to the king and a private inheritance. Sir Henry Capel. The rule we go by here is justice and truth. I would know if we have done justice to fill the throne with king William and queen Mary? Is it a prudent thing for us to say, that king James 2 is no king, and yet James 2 has a Revenue? I remember, on debates on the Exclusion-Bill, gentlemen that argued against it, alleged that there was no danger in the duke of York's coming to the crown; for, when the king dies, the Revenue ceases; and the parliament will take care of Religion, before they grant it.' We have seen that has been otherwise. When the king has abdicated the government, it is inconsistent with reason to think otherwise. I think this matter relates to Money, therefore it is proper to be in a committee of the whole house. Sir Rob. Howard. The question may have inconveniences; therefore resolve the house into a grand committee. Resolved, "That this house will, to-morrow morning, resolve itself into a Grand Committee, to take into consideration the king's Revenue." Feb. 27. The house resolved into a Grand Committee on the king's Revenue, Mr. Hampden in the chair. Sir Tho. Clarges. I would do my duty to my country, as well as to the king, and expect from the king what I do not from others. I would have the monarch and the people in mutual confidence, or else there is no safety to VOL. V. either. I think we ought to be cautious of the Revenue, which is the life of the government, and consider the two last reigns. It seems, by the king's Declaration, we are out of danger of falling into the misfortunes of the two last goveruments. If you give this Revenue for three years, you will be secure of a parliament. I doubt not the people of England, when they meet here, and have good execution of their laws, and are in security and safety; it is an unreasonable supposition, that the people will not aid him according to his occasions. And I move, that the Revenue may be settled for three years.' Sir Rob. Sawyer. I believe sir Rob. Howard can give you an account of the yearly value of the Revenue. Sir Tho. Clarges. When you have overcome this, I would have it determined, whether the temporary part of the Excise and the Customs are in being, before you proceed to any farther matters. Mr. Love. I find there will be occasion of discourses, what the Revenue is? Therefore I move, that Howard may give you the Revenue. When all is before you, you may consent to such a Revenue as may make the king great to all the world. Sir John Lowther. I shall be sorry, in the motion I shall make, to be an instrument to lose the good correspondence betwixt the king and you. We are not secure from danger; and I believe you will not lessen your reputation abroad, by having an entire confidence in him, and being perfectly united in interest and affection. The States of Holland are now engaged against the mighty power of France; and, I believe, you would not have the repu-. tation of the king lessened in that court. The king of France has 200,000 men, has equipped many ships, is preparing to assist king James in Ireland, and has great correspondence in Scotland. The duke of Gordon is in possession of Edinburgh castle, and it is thought will make king James a passage into Scotland by Ireland. The French king is upon his march with 80,000 men into Flanders, with design' upon Holland. I know not what can resist him, unless that little State, by the blessing of God, can do it. This is the state of affairs abroad: the Army is discontented at home. All this considered, I would have gentlemen consider, whether it is not necessary that there should be confidence in the king. I doubt not but the king will call parliaments often. If I had thought him a man of that temper as not to call parliaments, I should never have rentured my life and fortune for him; and if he would not have continued to support the Protestant Religion. If these considerations move with you, I shall be glad of it; if not, I shall comply with any other motion. Sir Edw Seymour. You ave had a repre sentation of the difficulties you are under. Arguments are not much altered from former times to make us unanimous in assisting the king; but now they serve for another turn. L Elections of Parliament-men, for the future. Perhaps arguments of so short a term as three years may give encouragement to your enemies, when it is said that all must depend on the condition of the Revenue: you yourselves, when you shall see the condition of the Revenue, may more easily settle your thoughts, what you will do for three years, or longer. What you settle on the crown, I would have so well done as to support the crown, and not carry it to excess. We may date our misery from our bounty here. If king Charles 2 had not had that bounty from you, he had never attempted what he had done. In his time, it was only, ask and have, carried on to that attempt as to hazard our ruin. Now we have a monarch, we must support him. I was sorry to hear what I didy esterday (from Birch), as if the king was like a single person, to cali him to account when we will, and that we should so soon change our respect to him. If we settle the Revenue, I would enquire into it; if you know not the value of what is given, you | cannot do it effectually. There is great need of Money, and when you know the particulars of the Revenue, you may better consider of it, and not go away with names, but do things. Before you make any settled resolutions, enquire into it; and, if possible, that the whole Revenue granted may be at one time certain, and not a part temporary. To enquire into the Revenue is your best method. Sir Francis Drake. We are told of former excess of giving Money I was never for it, because it was against the interest of the nation, to stab our Religion and Laws. I thank God, we are delivered from these men now we are under a prince who has deserved well of the nation in delivering us, and I would give him the best acknowledgment we can, but not to prejudice the people. The same reasons for not giving formerly make me for it now, for our prince to support the honour of the nation. It is proposed, that you calculate what is necessary to support the honour and dignity of the crown.' I believe you will have an account given in a short time. I would appoint to-morrow for it. Sir Robert Howard. I wish I could give the house satisfaction concerning the Revenue now. What was said is very true, that heat of loyalty was carried on formerly to excess, but there is not that argument to carry us on now. If the religion of the one and the other were the same, then be careful of excess; but coldness now will have more fatal effects. The question now is, Whether you will grant the Revenue for life, or years? I have heard the argument for granting it only for three years, but to secure Parliaments. I will lay little argument upon the stress of a Protestant king, and no danger of religion. I never will speak against a Triennial Parliament. When a Popish king has received such testimony of kindness from the parliament as to have the Revenue for life, if a prince, come in to save your Religion and Laws, should not have the same confidence, it will be thought a great coldness. It will be a matter of great rejoicing beyond sea, if we come up with more chearfulness to that king who would have imposed upon you what this king has delivered you from. It may give encouragement to your enemies. Here are great dislikes, of a sad and cloudy nature; this may extend to cloud mens minds, and extend to Mr. Eyre. I move, that the Debts of the Crown may be brought in, with the Charges upon the Revenue. Sir Robert Clayton. I am afraid that will not do your business. I apprehend that there may be legal Charges on the Revenue, as the Bankers Debt, and other legal Charges; and if the Courts of Justice do well, they will recover it on the king. Mr. Garroway. The Bankers Debt is named: I believe it is upon that part of the Excise which legally ought not to be charged: there are solicitors at the door in this business already. Sir Tho. Clarges. Since the Bankers Debt is named, when you come to look into the Revenue, you will see whether the Bankers Debt be legally due, and which ought to be paid. The case will be, whether the Crown has power to sell all the Revenue, not settled by parliament. You must pay for what you buy, and yet come to the lord Treasurer for it. I was of that Jury, when 80,000l. a year was bought valuably, and the officers of the Exchequer robbed them of it. Sir Henry Capel. For fear of the Bankers, I would not neglect the security of the kingdom: but if it be charged upon a branch of the Revenue, which it ought not to be, it is no Debt. Sir Robert Howard. I had the honour to be one of the members appointed to examine Coleman, who said, that a considerable sum was to be given to secure the Bankers Debt ; and if it was thought good then, what need of security? Sir Tho. Lce. I know not how this debate of the Bankers comes regularly before you. I am not versed in the rules of the Exchequer, and less in law; but I had it from lord Clifford, that, if the Bankers lent the king 100%. it was at 10 per cent.' They could not advance Money. Tickets cost 2s. 6d. a-piece, and so, upon reckonings, they made the king pay 50 per cent. Mr. Boscawen. The Bankers agreed with Coleman for such a sum of money. A great deal of money was lent to king Ch. 2, on credit, in lord Clifford's time; and the shutting up the Exchequer was looked upon as the greatest invasion of property. It was to make war with Holland; and, without that illegal way, they could never have got Money to make war. I would have it brought in; if legal, it may be thought of; if illegal, made void. Mr. Polleafen. I am of the mind of the gentleman, to give the king that which may not deceive him, and in him, ourselves. I would have the whole Debt and Charge brought in. Mr. Sacheverell, I have known this of the Bankers formerly. If you look upon it as a Debt from the beginning, and examine the accounts, it may probably last you till Midsummer. There was great solicitation in the house then, and some say foul. It was urged then, if you can prove a just Debt, will you come to account of the Money you lent; and will you be content to stand by it, and fall by that account? Then said I, what reason have you to expect more privilege than all the other subjects of England, and there is no reason to look into it. Was it examined, it would be found, that the king was so far from being debtor to them, that they would be debt ers to him. Resolution to stand by the King, &c.] This day, his majesty by Message acquainted the house, "That the late king James was sailed with French troops from Brest, in order to land in Ireland." ́Upon which it was resolved nem. con. "That the house will stand by, and assist the king with their Lives and Fortunes, in supporting his Alliances abroad, in reducing of Ireland, and in Defence of the Protestant Religion and Laws of the Kingdom." To which, the next day, they desired the concurrence of the Lords; and afterwards presented to his majesty in the form of an Address. State of the Revenue delivered in by Sir R. Howard.] March 1. Sir Rob. Howard reported that, according to the Order of this house, for bringing in the yearly value of the several branches of the Revenue, he had prepared a Computation thereof, as follows: 4 Computation of the several Branches of the Revenue. "The most salutary change in the consti- late prince. We may date our misery to our tution of England at the Revolution, was bounty,' said a member of the house of comeffected by the regulations which the commons mons. 'If king Charles had not had that adopted with respect to the state and manage- bounty from you, he never would have atment of the Public Revenue. The connexion tempted the things he has done.' 'I remember,' between the Public Revenue and the temper said another, when above 100,000l. was of government, must appear an important and given for building of ships, and not one was instructive fact, to every one who carefully built; and above 200,000l. granted to support peruses the history of England. Though, at the Triple League, was employed for breaking an early period, the kings of England possessed it.'The reformation of the Revenue, from a large independent Revenue, arising from pa- these considerations, appeared the capital trimonial demesnes, taxations, and servitudes, point to which the attention of every true yet these were far from being adequate to the patriot ought to be directed; and which, if it extraordinary expences which occurred almost was once compassed, would ensure the redress in every reign. The prodigality of a court, of every remaining Grievance, and the prointernal convulsions, and foreign war, had gressive improvement of the constitution. The often compelled the prince to own his depen- most perfect political sagacity could not foredence, and solicit the bounty of his subjects. see what abuses or grievances might arise at The solicitations of the prince reminded the any future period, but these could be only people of their own importance. Their discon- transient, if the Revenue was subjected to tents, hitherto propagated in timid whispers, such periodical expirations, as must necessarily assumed the bold strain of Complaint and Re-render the prince dependent upon the gratitude monstrance, and dared to approach the throne of the suppliant monarch. Hence the Redress of Grievances came to be the stated price of liberality to the prince, and the people wisely calculated, that any inconvenience, arising from the present diminution of their property, was abundantly compensated, by their obtaining such laws and regulations as contributed to its future security and increase.-Recent experience recommended the utmost caution in the disposal of the Revenue. The depression of their own influence, the open violation of the laws, an accumulation of Grievances, against which they had not an opportunity to remonstrate while parliaments were laid aside, were mortifying evidences of the pernicious effects of their rash and irrevocable generosity to the and generosity of his people. As the foundation of this system, it became expedient that the Convention should explain the precise extent of the generosity they had already exercised towards the king, by putting the crown upon his head. Some of his majesty's friends were of opinion, that the Act of Settlement conveyed the full possession and uncontrolled disposal of the Revenue annexed to the crown, at the period of king James's abdication; and it was natural to suppose, that the king himself listened with partiality to this opinion. When it was moved in the house of commons, that the Revenue had expired with the abdication of king James, great address was used to treat the question as a point of law, and to exclude those arguments of expediency, which could The medium of the 4 years is 577,507 12 10 | The New Imposition granted in the late King The Duties, late in the Wood James the Second's Time. Years produced, from Mi chaelmas 87,* to Mi- £. S. d. chaelmas 88 Remained to come, 4 Years, Half, from Christmas last, same time, produced, in 24 French Linen, Brandy, Silks, 12,119 4 4 £. 609,126 17 The EXCISE made, in the year 1685 567,064 12 7 581,664 4 81 9 200,000 0 0 55,000 0 0 26,350 15 52 £. 1,500,964 3 44 Half, the 1st of Jan, last. 172,901 10 81 148,861 8 0 93,710 8 1 Memorandum, These two last Branches are charged with the Loan of 84,8881. 6s. 9d. with Interest; which is to be paid in the course of the Register, as it comes in. King's Message relative to the HearthMoney.] Mr. Comptroller Wharton acquainted the house, that he had a Message from his majesty, in writing, which was as follows: "W. R. His majesty, having been informed, that the Revenue of the Hearth-Money is very grievous to the people, is therefore willing to agree, either to a regulation of it, or to the taking of it wholly away, as this house shall think most convenient and, as, in this, his majesty doth consider the ease of the subject, so he doth not doubt, but you will be careful of the support of the crown." Total not fail to incline many of the members to approve of the motion, if it had been fairly open to discussion. These persons contended, that the Revenue which had been conferred upon the late king, became the inherent right of the crown, and attached to his successor, without any new interference, or confirmation by par- Supplies. Immense sums of the public money liament. Others, who professed an equal res- had been wasted in the prosecution of grievous pect to the authority of law, advanced an suits, in behalf of the crown against the subopinion which rendered the royal income pre-ject: 47,8841. had been paid by the privy carious, but not in the same degree dependent as if it had now expired, or been bestowed for a short or definite period. They maintained, that the Revenue was subjected to the same regulations with private property; that having been granted to James, for the purpose of governing during his life, it could not be alienated from that purpose, or follow him after he had deserted his public trust; but that, while he lived, it belonged to the person substituted in his official state. Upon the event of the death of James, they acknowledged that the Revenue would revert to the commons, and might then be regulated, both with respect to quantity and duration, as the circumstances and interests of the nation required.-The motives for dissenting from these opinions did not arise, merely, from the apprehension of distant or imaginary abuses of a Revenue exempted from the controul of the people. An inquiry, instituted by the commons into the state of the revenue, and abuses in the Expenditure of public money, led to discoveries which left it no longer doubtful, from what sources the former oppressions of the nation had flowed ; and demonstrated the necessity of the most cautious and restricted modifications of the seal to Burton and Graham, who had been employed as agents for the crown in these infamous suits: 100,000l. had been placed to the article of Secret Services, in the course of the last ten years, a period in which the nation had enjoyed uninterrupted peace. After various debates, the commons found that the revenue had expired; and afterwards agreed, that 420,000l. should be given to his majesty, by a Monthly Assessment, to supply the present exigencies of government.-The merit of this important Resolution, and the subsequent regulations of separating the Civil List from the extraordinary demands of government, of appropriating the Supplies, and of reviewing the application of them, are to be ascribed principally to the Whigs. The Tories boasted of their opposition to these Resolutions, in order to supplant their antagonists; and to insinuate themselves into the good graces of the king. William was deeply mortified with the dependence to which he was subjected, and his affections began to be estranged from a party, who appeared to have laid down a plan, to revoke or impair that dignity which their own hands had created." Somerville. "Eighty-seven" should be "Eighty-five." Debate thereon.] Mr. Comptroller Wharton. I cannot but say, this is the greatest honour the king can do me, to make me a messenger of this. I have seen Messages for Money, but it is the first I ever heard of this kind, for the king to part with a Revenue. I am to acquaint you farther, a little more fully than in this Paper, viz. that the king was the first that moved this in Council. He did it for the ease of the people, and would always do so: he, and only he, is to have the honour of it. Sir Rob. Howard. It was very late, when no body expected any such thing, that the king made this motion in council: the king said, It was much in his thoughts: I could wish the bouse had heard his discourse of all this business; and in all his discourse from Exeter hither, he expressed his inclination to do good to the people. Sir Tho. Clarges. I move, that both houses would join in an Address to the king, with their humble sense and Thanks; and I would bave it the Declaration of the whole nation. Sir Tho. Littleton. We cannot but have a great sense of this gracious condescension of his majesty; perhaps the most grateful and the greatest grace that has been done by any king formerly. And as this is a great favour from his majesty, so I hope we shall take care, in due time, that his majesty may be no loser. Col. Birch. I stand up to second not only our hearty Thanks, with the concurrence of the lords, but this being such a Revenue that we were in no hopes ever to have an end of it, I would also signify this extraordinary favour to the nation, and give the king an extraordinary compensation. Sir Tho. Lee. I move to have an addition to the Thanks, &c. That the king need not doubt of the affections of his people, to supply his occasions from time to time.' Mr. Hampden. First resolve on Thanks, and then you may add as has been moved; but not to join the lords in any thing relating to Aid the king by way of compensation. You may appoint a committee to draw up the Address.-A Committee was appointed accordingly. King's Message on committing several PerSons. Mr. Hampden, one of his majesty's privy council, acquainted the house, that he bad a Message from his majesty, viz. "That his majesty hath had credible information, that there are several persons in and about this town, that keep private Meetings and Cabals, to conspire against the Government, and for the assistance of the late king James: That his majesty has caused some of those persons to be already apprehended and secured, upon suspicion of High Treason; and that, he thinks, he may see cause to do so by others, within a little time: but that his majesty is between two great difficulties in this case; for that, if he should set those persons at liberty, that are apprehended, he would be wanting to his own safety, and the safety of his government and people: on the other hand, if he should detain them, he is unwilling to do any thing, but what shall be fully warranted by law, which he has so often declared he will preserve and that therefore, if those persons should deliver themselves by the act of Habeas Corpus, there would be another difficulty. That his majesty is likewise unwilling, that excessive Bail should be taken in this case; his majesty remembering that to be one Article of the Grievances presented to him that ordinary Bail will not be sufficient; for men who carry on such designs, in hopes of succeeding will not stick at forfeiting a small sum: and that, this falling out when the parliament is sitting, his majesty therefore thought fit to ask the Advice of this house therein; and intends to advise with the lords also." : Debate thereon.] Mr. Garroway. This Message requires your Advice. I conceive, the king is under some pressure by the law; he does consider your safety, without violating the law; our business is to take off all hardships from the king, and to take the burden upon ourselves. It is not unknown, at least some are suspected to be tampering, and the king has found out some, and by this he may proceed to the remainder. In this, we must consult the learned in the law, to offer their opinions upon the present sense of things, and to beseech the king that no present proceedings may be against these men, but to take some little time to consider of it. Sir Thomas Littleton. It is of great consequence, what Advice the lords and commons shall give in this. In the mean time, I desire the king may make no proceeding against these men; and I would add Thanks to the king for asking your Advice; a thing not very usual in this place. Col. Birch. I second that motion. These are new things; and the king having thus freely delivered us from that badge of slavery, the Chimney-money, (by which a Freeholder was not left in England) I second the motion, that such Thanks, and special Thanks, may be given him on this occasion. Mr. Boscawen. We are not only to consider these persons secured at present, but such as may be upon the same occasion. It is not unknown, that many soldiers disbanded, or who have disbanded themselves, have arms in their hands. I have letters, that the soldiers in Cornwall are as bad as the rest; and when the magistrates rejoiced at the happy change, the soldiers killed a man. I would consider some regulation or discipline of the soldiers, and not to have them proceeded against in Westminster-hall, and to make some temporary provision for the safety of the Government. There is a kingdom near us, where these soldiers may go without ships (Scotland). I would take some effectual course. I have laid the thing before you. ***** The matter before you requires no long time of consideration; the king has sent for your Advice, and he knows well enough how the law stands, which ought to be |