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send up your Address, to have a vote for a Bill for the king to commit, without benefit of Habeas Corpus, for three months.
inviolable, and I am always for keeping it. I Therefore I would make immediate application to the king, to take up such persons as he shall suspect to be obnoxious; likewise I would have a short Bill, for two or three months, to enable the king to commit such persons as he shall have cause to suspect, without the benefit of Habeas Corpus.
Sir Thomas Clarges. A thing of so extraordinary a nature as this, requires time to consider of it. I cannot consent to this Bill. is said, these men may escape when bailed;' must we therefore intrench upon the Habeas Corpus act? I would rather advise, that great security may be taken of them to appear, than that that Bill should be intrenched upon; thing so sacred! The other motion, about the disorders of the soldiers, seems to touch upon martial law. If they do any violences, the law is sufficient already; but if martial law be necessary, let it be by way of trial by juries. But I cannot abide martial law.
Sir Henry Capel. This matter is for the house, and not Advice proper for the privy council. It is the duty of every person about the king, to advise him to take the opinion of this house. Pray let there be no discouragement in the thing, the king asking your Advice so graciously. This thing is not slight; it is weighty, and a great deal is at the bottom. That the king would continue his care, and to thank the king for it,' was Clarges's motion, which I second.
Sir Rob. Sawyer. I take the act of Habeas Corpus to be the general security of all subjects. It is not to be understood, that that law will be shaken when you are gone, but to continue no longer than for the persons already taken, and at present in pursuit.
Sir Rd. Temple. It is happy we have such a king, that is tender of our laws and liberties, and that will advise with his Great Council. I fear, those things offered you tend to more violation of that law than a Bill. The taking extraordinary Bail was as much a violation of your liberties as any, in the late king's time; and there is no way but to provide a short law for it. If you advise the king to detain these persons, and no more, what needed the king to have had resort to you in this case? You can advise nothing else, but what will shake the Habeas Corpus act. If it be required, in three days time they are to have their Habeas Corpus. Since the king has had recourse to us for Advice, let us give him none against law. You may advise the king, that there be no proceedings, to deliver them, till you provide a law; and that, in the mean time, he may go on to apprehend them.
Mr. Hampden. Some of the persons apprehended are sent to the Tower; and the king does not think that a Habeas Corpus does not lie there, and therefore sends you this Message. Lord Arran (who is committed) had not been taken, but that he fled in the disguise of a footman's habit, and was stopped by a centry without order. I am of opinion, before you
Mr. Sacheverell. The Message sent you is too weighty to determine on a sudden; but thus far you may go, to advise him to secure those he suspects. I cannot consent to go any farther, nor consent, on every great occasion, to dispense with that Act, and at last to take it quite away; but to secure those whom the king does suspect, or has cause to suspect at present.
Sir Wm. Pulteney. Suppose persons come to a judge for a Habeas Corpus, what shall the judge do in this case? To say, that the house of commons have advised the king otherwise,' shall that supersede the judge's proceedings? So that necessarily you must have recourse to the legislative power, and leave the matter stronger than before.
Mr. Finch. This is a matter of great consequence: it is of absolute necessity, that those persons be secured for tampering with the government, and of as absolute necessity, that the law be secured too. There is no danger that persons should be delivered by Habeas Corpus; for as there are uo judges yet appointed, they can have no writs, and so no necessity of bailing them immediately. If they cannot be immediately delivered, and may be secured, the king can do that without your Advice. But the question is, What to do with the persons attached, sceing they cannot immediately be delivered? I think it fit to thank the king for his Message and to adjourn the debate.
Sir Christ. Musgrave. I speak to the question, for the committee to draw up an Ad dress of Thanks to his majesty, &c. I find gentlemen of various opinions. I am for Thanks, and would have that question single, else I know not how to give my Vote: I would have Thanks to the king for his gracious condescension in asking our Advice.
Resolved, "That the humble Thanks of this house be returned to his majesty for his most gracious Message, in desiring the Advice of this house."
Debate on the Bill for suspending the Habeas Corpus Act.] Lord Falkland. This Message from the king is of great consequence; and I am not for giving single Advice, but to give as much as we can. There is great cause to apprehend danger from caballing, and the old Army is discontented. Detaining these already apprehended, or that he shall have cause to suspect, I think we may advise without encroachment upon the law.
Sir Robert Clayton. When you have taken these people, how will you hold them in prison? Had it not been for the Habeas Corpus act, there had not been many of us here now; we had been dead and rotten in prison. Í would have the debate deferred. When the legislative power and the executive are far asunder, it might be difficult, but they are together. I would have this a temporary Bill for
a short time, and not to be drawn into example.
would have no members taken upon suspicion of practising against the government; but when they shall be first adjudged criminal here.
Sir Tho Clarges. I am for that motion for the king to apprehend suspected persons: till you give your Advice, the king may do it without you. I would have such advice given, as may consist with the gravity of this house. As for to-morrow, though the Tests, &c. are to be taken; there is no danger in taking them after to-morrow: I would have that understood that you have no restraint upon you that may put it off. As to this suspending the Habeas Corpus bill, at present I am under great restraints in judgment, therefore I would have it duly debated, and, it may be, I shall be for a temporary Act.
Sir John Lowther. I think you are told by the learned persons that it is no question, but the king may secure these suspected persons, and it is in his power, and supposed to be his duty, and the proper administration of the crown.' I am not against adjourning the debate till to-morrow, but I would not increase jealousies in people, that you will not take the Tests. Those who advised the king to desire a temporary Act seem rather to confirm the Habeas Corpus act, than to weaken it. When you exercise the legislative authority in this emergency, it is no invading your law, but very necessary at present.
Mr. Hampden. The difficulty the king is in, is not to apprehend these persons, but what to do with them. Your Advice is desired, and what he should do in this difficulty. I think the king may legally commit and do no man wrong. He asks your advice, and I think it is no encroachment on the Habeas Corpus act. No man took more pains in it, nor values it more than I do. These men will go on conspiring, and gentlemen say, to-morrow is appointed for taking the Oaths and Tests. Those gentlemen that refuse taking the Oaths and Tests, will sit very uneasily here. But if you gravely deliberate, and at the same time delay Swearing Allegiance to the king, as though you intend no haste, consider what will be said abroad. Therefore I move for a temporary Act to dispense with the Habeas Corpus.
Sir Tho. Clarges. I stand up to vindicate myself: I am as free as any body to take these Oaths. I desire to just fy myself.
Ordered, "That a committee be appointed to draw up a temporary Bill, for impowering his majesty to apprehend and detain all such persons, as he shall have just cause to suspect are conspiring against the Government."-The bill was brought in, read the first and second time, and ordered to be committed.
Sir Wm. Williams. Consider the quick flight this Bill has made here; it was voted, brought in, and committed all in one day. As you have overruled your own Order, so I must not wonder at irregularities, but I hope you will be tender in it for the future.
Sir Edw. Seymour. I spoke it now; if I am irregular, it is because I am going into the country with your leave, and shall not have opportunity to do it.
Sir Tho. Lee. I think the motion not irregular, for many more Reasons, for re-commitment; for if the Bill be once brought in, in parchment, at the last reading it must be laid aside if it cannot be mended at the table. I know it is a thing of great consequence for members to be taken out of this house. But the ancient right, in the case of the five Members in 1640, was, that the cause of accusations must be showed in parliament, and ought to be so, as well in accusation of treason, as suspicion of treason.
Sir Wm. Williams. There is no privilege to any member in case of treason-that care may be taken in the ingrossment.
Sir Rd. Temple. No privilege to a member, &c. A member may be accused untruly, for the cause and matter ought to be true. For misdemeanor, or breach of the peace, a member is not to be tried in time of parliament. It was the case of lord Devonshire, and lord Lovelace. They pleaded they ought not to be tried in time of parliament though the misdemeanor was great, and done in the court.
Sir Tho. Clarges. The Charge of the five Members was undoubtedly treason, but to be taken out of the house was a breach of privilege, and afterwards owned and disclaimed by king Ch. 1, to be a rash attempt. A man may make a motion for a Bill, in a thing unforeseen, and if it cannot be well done at the table, you may re-commit the Bill. I move therefore, that some few gentlemen may draw a Clause. You run the utmost hazard by bringing in a rider, which cannot be mended at the table, and so the thing may be utterly lost.
Sir Rob. Howard A thing of so ordinary and plain a nature as this may be brought in parchment, and pray put an end to this thing.
Sir Tho. Lee. If you think this Proviso necessary, three words do it, viz. Provided that it does not extend to privilege of parliament,' and I hope you intend it to those members that do not attend in parliament, and are absent, [reflecting upon Seymour who had leave to go into the country.]
An Amendment was proposed, That that present Act shall continue till the 17th of April, and no longer, and agreed to. But a second in these words, "and is never to be drawn into precedent or example hereafter," was rejected.—A Clause was then offered by
March 4. Sir Edw. Seymour. I apprehend, nothing but the last necessity will cause you to part with the Habeas Corpus Act; the same example for others may be for the future to do it. In what I say, I move for privilege of parlament; I would not have that suspicion extend to members of parliament. I think it reasonable, when you provide for the security" of the public to provide for your own. I
way of Addition to the said Bill, which provided, That the Expences and Fees of all persons so committed, should be defrayed by the public: which was likewise over-ruled.--After which a Proviso being first inserted, That the said Act should not any way affect the privileges of parliament, or persons of the Members, till the matter of suspicion be first communicated to the house; the Bill was passed.
Report from the Committee of Grievances.] March 5. Sir Joseph Tredenham reported from the Committee of Grievances, as follows: "Resolved, 1. That it is the opinion of this committee, That the Rights of the city of London, in the Election of Sheriffs in the year 1682, were invaded, and that such invasion was illegal, and a Grievance. 2. That the Judgment given upon the Quo Warranto, against the city of London, is a Grievance. 3. That the late Prosecutions of Quo Warranto's against the other cities, two universities, the towns-corporate, boroughs, cinque-ports, and plantations, and the Judgments thereon,and the Surrender of Charters, to the violation of their antient Rights, are illegal, and Grievances. 4. That the Commissions and Instructions for regulating Corporations, and putting Tests in order to electing Members for Parliament, are illegal, and Grievances. 5. That the promising of Votes to take off the penal Laws, and Tests, is a violation of the Rights of Parliament, and a Grievance. 6. That the Collecting the Customs, and part of the Excise, between the death of king Ch. 2, when these Duties were determined; and the parliament that was called afterwards, was illegal, and a Grievance. 7. That the levying of Money, otherwise than the law allows, and the disarming of Protestants, and the quartering of Soldiers, the pressing of Horses and Carriages, contrary to law, are Grievances. 8. That the house be moved to appoint a particular Committee, to examine into the matters aforesaid, and who were the authors and advisers thereof."-To all which the house agreed, and a Committee was appointed accordingly.
impossible we should live, and not have blood upon us, if we pass this by unpunished. The next is the murdering our Civil Rights in Corporations, in taking away Charters, &c. If we do not punish these things, corruption still remains encouraged, and we shall cause this to descend to posterity. If the fault be in the Jury, and they will not tell us who gave the counsels, they must take it upon themselves. To proceed upon some actings in this, I would have a Select Committee. Let it go to what fountain it will, were my own father concerned. Not but that I would have a Committee of Grievances to sit, but you may have a Select Committee to sit upon Grievances, and you will find the parties and originals, or these men must make themselves murderers of these men, and murderers of our Liberties. No calamity so great (says lord Coke) as what is done under colour of justice.'
Mr. Howe. These men are known to the boys in the streets. The delay of this may put the people upon great discontents. Suppose a tradesman dies, as a shoemaker, and another comes to take the house, and finds awls and lasts in the house, shall I believe a painter lived in the house? I would have these awls and lasts thrown out of the house. I would have a Select Committee to enquire into this, and then I hope you will have a good account of this, and let the tools be thrown away.
Sir Tho. Clarges. There are a great many Grievances more than this, as the illegal Ecclesiastical Commission; dispensing with the Oaths, &c. to the overthrow of all our laws; money levied by a charter upon Hackney Coaches; if that be so, you will be tript out of all your rights quickly. I wish the Committee, after the discovery of all these Grievances, would have named the persons who had occasioned them. Had they brought you in the persons who had offended, you might then have done something. I could wish these Grievances might be re-committed, and so consider farther of them, and find out the persons who occasioned them.
Debate on Grievances.] Sir Rob. Howard. You have received a Report from the Committce in general: I would have some use of it, though it is actum agere, to do it over again. We have a great example of the king; instead of those indirect means used formerly to get money, he has given you money. He has been so far from breaking your laws, that he has not so much as bowed them. I will wind all up in one motion, to incite every member to close with it. I find all the Answers from Burton and Graham, relating to the blood spilt by their Prosecution, that of the sheriffs of London, &c. that they were but ministerial in them;' they ought to be made an example, if they have a mind to gratify themselves by that, to make them originals, and a Bill of At-will be afraid to offend. When you have voted tainder to be brought against them. Let us the Grievances, you may, by a private comfree ourselves from the guilt of that blood spilt, mittee, find out the persons. Punishment of to all posterity, and not leave ill ministers, by vice is as necessary as reward to virtue. these examples, to do the same again. It is
Sir Edw. Seymour. I am of opinion with Clarges, that all the Grievances of this nation are not in the Committee's Report. We have great obligation to the king, who has relieved us from the oppression of Chimney Money: but if I be not misinformed, we owe that to the lower end, and not to the higher end, of the council-table. If these men act again, who have countenanced these things, no body
Mr. Love. I am of opinion, that finding
Sir Rob. Clayton. I would not hunt too many hares at once. If you take too many things, you will finish none. All we could get from Burton and Graham was, that they had their direction from the Attorney General,' and there is the end of the thread. Pray enquire of the Attorney General.
out mischiefs will do no good, without remedying them. The two first Heads of the Bill relate to the City of London. If you refer this till you have done all, you will never be at an end; it will find you work for a great while. Sir Tho. Lee. No ordinary treason is more dangerous than the practice of these men. would have the Committee meet and examine their several practices, and then you may go to the lords for committing them, as a court, by the complaint of the commons; else that court cannot commit originally. A learned lawyer (Maynard) has declared, that you are to proceed so in common-law treasons.
privilege, and if you impeach them for any thing under treason, they may be bailed. I would have a committee to draw up a charge against them. Any thing that tends to subvert the laws is treason. Parricide is as great a crime as is in the world, but it is not high treason. Before the statute 25 Edw. 3, the greatest treason was subverting the law, and even a judge to break his oath, was judged treason at the common law. You may provide your evidence against these men, after you have impeached them, and I hope you will bring them to justice.
Sir Christ. Musgrave. It is your proper way to refer it to a committee, to examine the matter, and then bring the accusation; let the committee report to the house how the matter stands, but bring in no accusation, leaving that
Resolved, "That a particular Committee
Major Wildman. I would consider whether this be practicable immediately. Possibly they may demand Habeas Corpus before night. There are 30 in number committed, and most without any law, and committed by no autho-to the house. rity in law. It is notorious that they have broken privileges of parliament, by taking be appointed to examine into the Matters away Corporation Charters, by engaging Sub- aforesaid; and who were the Authors and Adscriptions to elect such as the king shall nomi-visers thereof." nate, to overthrow the very foundations of parliaments. The way proposed by Lee I think the best. But whether you will commit them for breach of privilege of parliament. You are told of a great sum of money that has gone through their hands. I would have them in your power, for they have been guilty of the greatest subversion of the laws that ever was.
Sir Tho. Clarges. I will agree that Burton and Graham are guilty of great offences, but whether you will determine this breach of privilege without hearing them? There is nothing expressed in the warrant of commitment of the cause of their commitment, and I think there is no danger from the lords commissioners, who have three days to consider of the Habeas Corpus, and by that time possibly you may have special matter against them; therefore we are not to infringe the laws, be the offenders ever so great. I know not whether the lords, primá instantiá, may commit commoners: I would rather go some expeditious way, by Impeachment.
Col. Birch. If any gentleman of this house will come and inform you of a breach of privilege upon him, you never deny commitment of the person that did it. Scarce a gentleman of this house that will not agree this to be a horrible breach of privilege. Let your serjeant take them into custody and examine them, and so you have them in custody according to usage of parliament.
Mr. Paul Foley. I understand, a great many are in the Tower. If the king's council, who hear us, will inform the king, some course may be taken with them. If this house talk of breach of privilege with men they intend to hang, it is a strange course. There is no way we can proceed, but by Impeachment, and go generally to the lords to accuse them, and appoint a committee to draw it up.
Sir Rd. Temple. It is strange that men who lie in the Tower for the greatest crimes, should be fetched out for so low a thing as breach of VOL. V.
Protest on the Bill for regulating Trials.] March 6. On the the 26th of Feb. a great debate occurred in the house of lords, on the Bill for the better regulating the Trials of the Peers of England; and this day the question being put, Whether this Bill shall pass? It was resolved in the affirmative.-Leave was given to any lords to enter their Dissents; and accordingly these lords following entered their Dissents in the Reasons following:-" 1. Because nothing ever was or may be put into an Act of parliament, that can reflect so much upon the honour of the Peerage as this will. 2. Because this sets the Honour of the Peers and the Commons upon an equal foot. 3. Because such persons as may have Causes to be heard at the bar of this house will not be so confident of the justice of the Peers, and consequently be jealous of the Right that may be expected upon impeachments. 4. Because this strikes at the root of all the Privileges of the Peers, mast of which they claim by reason of the great regard that the law has to the honour and integrity of the Peers above that of the Commons; the Statute de Scandalis Magnatum being enacted for that reason only. 5. Because it will be, in some sort, a mark of reproach upon every peer who shall be challenged, unless there be very great and apparent cause for it. 6. Because this will tend to maintain feuds and animosities amongst the Peers. 7. Because, at this time, it is unreasonable, considering the late Disputes and Divisions that have been in this house. 8. Because the Honour of every man, much more of a Peer, is, or ought to be more valuable than his life. (Signed) Delawarr, North and Grey, Kingston, Lindsey, G. C. Craven, Northampton, Delamer, Stanford, Pembroke, Lucas, H. London, Morley and Mounteagle, Winchester, Bedford, Manchester, Norfolk and Marshal, Berkeley, S."
The King's Answer to the Address of Lives and Fortunes.] March 8. The Speaker read M
the King's Answer to the Address of both houses declaring they would stand by him, &c. with their Lives and Fortunes, which was contained in these words:
derable Force, which I think ought not to be less than 20,000 horse and foot; which by the blessing of God, will make the work shorter, and in consequence, the Charge easier, though the first Expence must, of necessity, be great.You are to consider that, towards the more speedy and effectual Success in relation to Ireland, as well as with a regard to France, there must be such a Fleet as may, in conjunction with that of the States, make us entirely Masters of the Sea that nothing can be sent from France either to Ireland, or any where clse, that may give disturbances to us, or our allies. -I must also recommend the Consideration of the Revenue to you, that it may be so settled, as that it may be collected without dispute.My Lords and Gentlemen; These things will amount to a great sum, and must of consequence be a present weight upon the people ; but, considering that neither your Religion, nor your safety, can probably be secured without these means, I conclude you will think nothing can be too great a price for their preservation: and I will engage my solemn word to you, that whatever you shall give in order to these public ends shall be strictly applied to them; and that as you so freely offer to hazard all that is dear to you, so I shall as freely expose myself for the Support of the Protestant Religion, and the safety and honour of the nation."
"My lords and gentlemen; If any thing could add to the esteem and affection I have for Parliaments, and particularly for this, they would be much encreased by the kindness you shew to me, and the zeal you express for the public good in the Address you have made, which in the matter, as well as the manner, hath every thing in it that ought to recomiend it to me. I assure you I will never abuse the confidence that you shall put in me; being fully persuaded, that there is no sure foundation of a good agreement between a king and his people but a mutual trust: when that is once broken, a government is half dissolved: it shall, therefore, be my chief care never to give any parliament cause to distrust me; and the best method I can use for that purpose is never to expect any thing from them, but that which shall be their own interest to grant.-I came hither for the good of the kingdom, and, since it is your desire that I am in this station, I shall pursue the same ends that brought me. -God hath been pleased to make me instrumental to redeem you from the ills you feared, and it is still my desire, as well as my duty, to preserve your Religion, Laws, and Liberties, which were the only inducements that brought me into England, and to these I ascribe the blessings that have attended this undertaking. -When I spoke last to you, I told you of the necessity of assisting our Allies, and more especially the States of Holland, whose readiness to relieve you, at their too great hazard and expence, from the extremities you lay under, needs no other argument to move you to the consideration of it. As I was then a witness of their zeal and affection to promote the Ex-Hen. 4. At that time, there were no Coffeepedition, and second my endeavours, even with Houses, and no printing. If you could keep a neglect of their own safety; so I am now your Votes out of the Coffee-Houses, and supsensible of the inevitable ruin they have drawn press the licentiousness of printing, otherwise upon themselves, by giving you this assistance, you make secrets here of hat all the world if you should not return it to them.-They knows. Treaties are made public amongst have really exhausted themselves to such a princes, and it is no good thing to make secrets degree both as to Men and Money, that it is of that which is known. The world ought to not easily to be imagined, and I am confident know your Votes, and there is no harm in it. your generosity will have as little bounds to- As to what is said, that the king will concern wards them, as theirs had towards you: and himself in your votes;' the lords Journals are that you will not only enable me to make good open, and so are ours. I think we make more the Treaty with them, and repay what they of this than it is worth. I would have them have actually laid out upon this occasion, of printed. which an Account shall be given to you; but that you will farther support them to the utmost of your ability against the power of their enemies, who must be yours too, by their interest and their religion, and do certainly design the ruin of Holland to be a step to your destruction.-I need not take pains to tell you the deplorable Condition of Ireland, which by the zeal and violence of the Popish Party there, and by the assistance and encouragement they have from France, is brought to that pass, that it is not adviseable to attempt the reducing it, otherwise than by a very consi
Debate on a Motion for printing the Votes.] March 9. Sir Tho. Lee. In the Roll of the 9th Hen. 4, Nothing is to be taken notice of in Parliament, but what you shall communicate to the king. I know not how the king may take notice of what you do, and if you print your Votes, the lords may do the same. It will only save the gentlemen the trouble of writing to their corporations.
Sir Henry Capel. You are told of the 9th
Sir Joseph Tredenham. I cannot be persuaded that any thing now, or heretofore, has been for your service, by printing your Votes, but extremely to your disservice. I appeal how it is for your honour to make a Resolution in your Journal not to print your Votes, and now to make a contradiction in your Journal, to print them. Unless the cause of that contradiction do appear, it will make your counsels of little value abroad in the world. That you should alter your Resolutions weakly is not for your honour. What reason is there for most of your Orders, or for a Bill to be read