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three times, but for the more safety of your
proceedings? Whether it is for the honour and
credit of the house to vary Resolutions, I ap-
peal to you. Those rules and measures our
ancestors left us, are the safest way. The
inconvenience every body is sensible of, in the
ancient way
of passing Bills by Item, where
the king might reject and accept what he
pleased. When the king shall come to take
notice of what you do here, what becomes of
your Liberty of Speech, and what becomes of
your Freedom of Debates? It is contrary to
the course of nature here, to make a general
publication of what you do, before you make
it in course of parliament. As for sending
your Votes to Coffee-houses, it is a great
crime; it is more for the service of the house
that your clerks take not that liberty to publish
them in Coffee-houses, and most for your
nour not to print them.

Sir Rd. Temple. This matter is of more moment than at first it seemed to be; little benefit, and great inconvenience, may come from it. I dislike all innovations. In a great assembly, what is done must be with great reason: there ought to be no innovation.~ All that can be proved for printing it, is to rectify Coffee-houses, and for beyond sea. I saw, at Oxford Parliament, another thing gained, upon commissions that gentlemen had from their country about the Exclusion Bill. I hope we shall not imitate Holland, to go to our principals for Instructions; it may be of dangerous consequence to alter the government. I hear of balloting-boxes; they have had them in Scotland, but they are weary of them, as precluding all debates. This strikes at the essential privilege of parliament, when you have adho-vanced in a Bill, and then reject it, and the people know not the reason of that. I would have sending the Votes to Coffee-houses redressed; but it is far less inconvenience than that your Resolutions should go about from yourselves with approbation: I never heard any good reason for it, nor any good success of it when done. It will prove a levity without doors, to alter your Vote already made, and

Mr. Hampden. I see gentlemen ready to put the question, when they think a man is against it. The question is, Whether you print your Votes? I am sorry this question is stirred again. I remember it at the Oxford parliament—(I know the wheels that moved it then) I know that printing your Votes sounded well abroad, and it seems a popular thing, like sit-your Reasons not known, ting at Charing-cross, but the people had much rather hear our Reasons than our Votes, and no more. I have seen a Vote in a full house, at six or seven o'clock at night; the tide would not be stemmed, but there was a Vote passed; and when they thought better on it the next day, that Vote was unvoted again; whilst this is in your book only, there is no hurt. Is this all the argument, or does it look like one, that the people should know what you do? No ordinary council does it. The lords have not done it. Should you desire their concurrence to print their Votes, they will laugh at it, and their books are Records. One great reason for it is for the sake of the booksellers, or that younger gentlemen may be able, when the elder are in their graves, to know the Proceedings of Parliament; but they will see no reasons for them. Bills are not written in paragraphs, but all of a piece, and there is a reason in it; not that the clerks may read blank, but the reason is, that there may be no forging in it. If you print your Votes, consider what it is. There may be an inconvenience of intercourse; the lords against our privilege, and we against the judicature of the lords. The lords may tell you, you have voted something derogatory to the crown, and send you word, What have you to do with it? If you print it, will it not be a strange Message, that the crown should send you word of what you do? You must send the crown word, you intended not any thing against the crown; and of what strange consequences may this be? I have no end in this but regularity and decency. I have as great reverence as any man has for this house; and when you reverence yourselves, the world will have it for you. I hope you will not print your Votes.

Sir Tho. Littleton. I am for printing your Votes, and I see no inconvenience by it; it will be great if you do not print them. England has from the clerks all you do, but not the truth of what you do; and it is fit England should know both. In former parliaments, when they were invading and undermining the people, they were ashamed of it; but we are now under a king that preserves our liberties, and there is no reason but the people should know it. It is fit the people should know the good things transacted betwixt the king and this house. Such a union may have great influence both abroad and at home. I am for printing them.

Mr. Arnold. I would not have L'Estrange and Nevil Payne write false news beyond sea. I desire the truth may be known, and am for printing them.

Sir Rob. Howard, Methinks the debate is, Whether you will publish your Votes tacitly, or expressly? If they are published without the stamp of authority, it seems you will rather permit it by an unjustifiable way, than a justifiable. If you will keep your Books secret, perhaps I shall be for that; but if you suffer them to be published by other means, then is not printing the honester and juster way? If the question be, Whether they be kept secret, or not, I have my opinion: I know not the methods of Holland, but now you have more justification for printing than you had formerly, when they were better not published at all, but kept secret. But this parliament has been chosen in better methods. Possibly some Votes are fit that the world should presently see; but whether they should be kept secret or not, I shall reserve my thoughts; but whether you will print them is much the more justifiable way,

passed a Vote, that the Bill should be rejected. How will that stand in your books, that such a bill was rejected? You went an extraordinary way, to tack Reasons why you rejected it; and you send into the country to subject it to their judgments. It was ever held parliamentary, that the king and lords take no notice of what is done here, till communicated by the house; and you, by printing, go about to tell every body what you do. You put yourselves into an uncertain, unparliamentary condition, and I cannot agree to printing.

The question being proposed, That the Votes be printed accordingly; the previous question was put, that That question be now put: the house divided, Yeas 145; Noes 180. So it was resolved in the negative.

Sir Wm. Williams. I am sorry this has been moved to-day. The legality of doing it is out of the question. Notwithstanding all I have suffered for printing, by your Order, yea I think it not politic to do it now. It seems, it was a weak think in ine (when Speaker) to obey the house of commons, and I was turned out, the last parliament, and I believe that was the greatest reason for it. When you have vindicated the poor men who suffered for printing, then I shall be for it. As for precedents abroad, I shall not take my measures from methods abroad, but from our own constitution they are a Commonwealth, and we under a monarchy. There every man has a share in the government, but here not. Your Reasons will not appear with your Votes; and the people will not apprehend the Reasons of your contradictions. You will arm your enemies by it, and they will provide against your counsels.

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Col. Birch. I humbly tell you, I am heartily sorry for this debate, since it is not easy to see the consequence; it will reflect every way; it will let the world see you are subject to change. One day, Money is to be raised on one thing, another day, you reject it, and the world sees not your reasons. I am one of those that are heartily sorry for Williams's great sufferings, when he took the employment of Speaker upon him, and was trusted with the printing the Votes; and he did take upon him the Solicitor General's place in king James's time, because he did not know any way to get his fine again, but by such an office. This say, for satisfaction to myself: I would not have gentlemen take notice of it. When we debate here of projects to raise Money, perhaps the Book of Rates may save our lands, and this may argue to the world impotency and weakness. In the mean time, any gentleman may put out any thing in writing at his peril: it is an unseasonable time, and an unseasonable question.

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Debate on the King's Speech.] March 11. The house resolved into a grand committee on the king's Speech.

Mr. Sacheverell. I was against printing your Votes formerly, and am so still. I think certainly, it will destroy all good correspondence betwixt the two houses. Consider how things stand: if gentlemen please to remember, the lords sent down a Bill for the speedy Conviction of the Popish Recusants. This house

Sir John Guise. There are three points touched upon in the king's Speech, relating to Money. The first is in relation to the advantage we have had from Holland, and what they have done for us, which we ought to be mighty sensible of, and touched with: and gratitude becomes us. The danger for their fleet in winter, &c. and the hazard that may be brought upon them by it. The next is, the consideration of Ireland: I would willingly have seen the State of the Army, and the Expence. The next is the Revenue, of which I would have all the branches before you, that you may consider, whether it shall be settled for life, or years.

Mr. Papillon. The consideration of Ireland, the Fleet, and Holland, all depend upon the Revenue, of which some is for life, some for a term of years. Some, the other day, thought all the Revenue was vested in the king; others did doubt it; therefore we ought to put it past doubt. Therefore I move for an Act to give and grant the Revenue to the king, that it may be collected without dispute, and an indemnity for the collecting it since the vacancy; and if the State of the Revenue be ready, I would have it delivered in by sir Robert Howard.

Sir Tho. Clarges. I would have the redundancy of the Crown Revenue, after the GoIvernment is supplied, applied to the uses desired in the king's Speech; I mean, take the Customs to be 600,000l. one year with another. The Excise is a Revenue by itself. See to have also the Addition upon Linen, Brandy, and Silk, and 400,000l. taken up upon them, and little to be depended on themthe Hereditary Revenue. The end of my proposition is, whether the Committee will take the Revenue as given in, or as I have reported it. I humbly propose, whether you will grant it for life, or years? I leave it to you.

Mr. Garroway. The Paper I have come by agrees with Clarges's account; but I think you are not ripe to come to that question, whether the Revenue be standing or not-Whether the Charges, for particular persons uses,

upon the Revenue, shall continue? Begin, | nation of this house. I am sure, my motion is upon a fair clean paper, these Charges, whether they shall be continued, or taken away and in that I shall serve you as well as I can.

Mr. Sacheverell. I take it, the Revenue ceases; it is rasa tabula; and I would have a short Bill to declare it so. Then you may declare such a part hereditary; but I shall be against a great Revenue, as in former tim If all may begin anew, I am ready to agree.

Sir Robert Cotton. If you declare all the Revenue fallen with king James, consider that all the Revenue has been wrongfully collected since the abdication.

for reading the Bill a second time. I stand up only for one Clause in the Bill. Every gentleman knows, as well as myself, that a conspiracy to levy war against the king, is treason, by the Statute 25 Edw. 3. [He was taken down again to order.] Give me leave to vindi-. cate myself; what I shall offer will be very short; the reasons I had to urge that point of treason: if law-books have led me in the wrong, I am ready to rectify my opinion, whether to conspire without levying war be treason. It is to conspire the king's death, to keep him in custody till such things be done. It is to conspire, as in the case of Dr. Storey, to invite a foreign prince to invade the kingdom, though nothing followed upon it. It was treason in lord Cobham's case, upon debate of all the Judges, in the Report Conspiracy to levy war against the king' was, to conspire against the life of the king. To throw open all inclosures generally all over the kingdom, was the case of the Miller of Oxfordshire, who was actually executed. Upon this the difference stands in books. Any general design (though not immediately against the king's person) to keep him in custody, till he had confirmed any thing that the people would have, is treason; as in the case of Rea and Ramsey, in Rushworth's Collection-To raise war against the king, all the Judges declared it treason. Hav. ing said this, it is authority enough for any lawyer to do what I did. Whether the Judges were in the wrong, I shall not determine.-He was taken down again by


Sir Tho. Lee. I hope you may have a shorter way. I remember, when the debate was the other day, some were of opinion, that the Revenue discontinued; the Hereditary Revenue was in another condition; but the house avoided that question, and referred it to a committee. The hereditary part of the Excise is not above 300,000l. per ann. granting it to be in the king and his successors from such a day from the time you have declared the abdication.

Col. Birch. I think the parliament were very prudent in 1661. The case was then directly as it is now. The Revenue' was supposed to cease, and many, in London and elsewhere, hesitated the payment. You will not find it in your Journal, but in another place; and they declared, that it should be collected as legally as it was, for about six weeks, by reason that, in the mean time, they might settle it as now it is. Pass therefore a question, that the Revenue be collected as legally it might have been, &c. till farther consideration be had of it. In short, the country do generally besitate, and keep all in their hands except 15d. the barrel. Therefore first put the question, that the Money may come in to the respective offices; and I would now order a Bill accordingly.

Mr. Garroway. I think you are not yet come so far. You say, it shall be collected; but you do not say to what end. Will you be tied up, by such a Vote, before you determine whether it be a standing Revenue, or an Aid? We know the burden of it, if you had, in Ch. 1's, Ch. 2's, and James 2's time declared it so: you will have a hard task to alter it, without declaring it now to alter it hereafter. Declare it, one part as Revenue, the other as an Aid and Supply; otherwise I shall be against the question.

Debate on the Bill for annulling lord Russel's Attainder.] A Bill, from the lords, for annelling and making void lord Russel's Attainder, interposed in the debate; and was read the first time.

Sir Henry Goodrick. It is strange to me to bear that learned gentleman vindicate himself, when nobody accuses him, and thereby to arraign the justice of the Bill for repealing the barbarity of this attainder by this murder. This is not to be suffered.

The Speaker. The learned gentleman, from his own vindication in the part he acted relating to this noble lord, has let himself into law-books, against the orders of the bouse.

Mr. Finch. I ask pardon of the house. What I said was not against order, since the house gave me leave to vindicate myself. I only showed you what I had read, and am far from arraigning this noble person; I did not intend it, and have as much respect for this noble family as any body. And now I have vindicated myself as to my proceedings in matter of law, I desire the Bill may be read a second time.

Sir Henry Capel. For respect to the family and the memory of this noble lord, I am sorry this gentleman did speak; and to vindicate the memory of this noble lord, read the Bill presently. He has cited Book-cases to justify his proceedings, &c. which is properly at a second reading. I am surprized at this gentleman's proceeding, and am sorry he has pro

Mr. Finch. I see many gentlemen's eyes are upon me; therefore I stand up to give an account of my reasons for the part I acted in that unfortunate business, that may more im-ceeded so far. mediately concern me. [He was taken down to order, not speaking properly against the Bill] I am easily satisfied with the determi

Sir Wm. Pulteney. I have as much honour for this person, and noble family, as any body; but I would keep up order. I would not have

the Bill read a second time now, but to-morrow. to declare it is no revenue! Settle it one way or other, without any thing of gathering it for three months upon uncertainty. This will lead you into such a course that you will not know the end of it.

This learned gentleman did make a vindication of himself. I will not undertake to answer him presently; I may have occasion to answer him


Sir Robert Howard. I cannot name lord Russel without disorder. I would neglect all things to read this Bill a second time. Perhaps the learned gentleman may tell us how large the law is then; it is a sufficient thing to name that noble lord. I am not able to say any more; but pray read the Bill. Sir Tho. Lee. " This Bill declares, that the Law-Books the learned gentleman has quoted were wrong; and if he doubts it, the reading it a second time will set that part right.-The Bill was read a second time.

Mr. Boscawen. I have hearkened diligently to the learned person's Law-cases. By the 25th of Edw. 3, we are Judges here of the true intent of that statute; and I would have it read [which was done]. I observe, by that statute, the abridging treason certain, which was before uncertain, for favour of the subject. It seems to me strange, if compassing the death of the king should be treason, and levying war, in another place of the statute: if that be false, it must be taken out of the Bill. To me it seems to be a great wresting of the law. It seems to be a transcendent wresting of the law. Pray read the Bill a third time.


Sir Tho. Clarges. I think the Bill is carefully penned, and I think the most that lord Russel could be guilty of, was but misprision of treason; war being not actually levied.

Sir Tho. Lee. If there be no objection against the Bill, it need not be committed.


Sir Tho. Clarges. In one clause of the Bill there may be two or three words left out. It is said, It is at the request of the earl of Bedford and lady Russel only. The justice of the nation is greater to you than any particular persons inducement. This Bill is not ex gratia, all the nation is concerned in it. When it is ex gratia, it ought to be signed by the king.-The Bill was ordered to be committed.

Sir Tho. Lee. I think this does not lose your time, if you will settle the Revenue. You saw, since Pollexfen declared his opinion, the people have been still more in doubt. The motion is made for all the Revenue, in the lump, and this may be passed in two or three days. Then you will consider Ships, the king's Family, Ambassadors, Judges, the Army, and a part for the king's necessary support. Then you will find what may be spared for the public, and how to supply it; till this be considered, what in time of peace is requisite, and what in war; if three months be too little, make it six. When the state of war is known, you will know how near this will go to the pay


Sir John Lowther. I will speak plainly what every man's heart is full of. The king has expressed himself in all kindness. He has trusted you with all be has in the world, and given into your hands a considerable part of the Revenue; and if you have the same jealousy of him, after all be has done and may do, this will gratify the Jesuits and France more than 200,000l. distributed and well given in the house of commons, to bring about their interest

Sir Christ. Musgrave. Seeing you have not taken notice, Mr. Hampden, of what has been said to the orders of the committee, I do take notice of it.

Sir John Lowther. What I said of Money, I meant to particular persons. There have been people who have received Money, and seeing the Jesuits and Papists have spread these reports abroad, and foreign ministers will make Alliances with the States of Holland, and then if that State cease their intercourse with the king, application will be made to the house of commons, who give the Money, and not to the king. The wise part of the house of commons will understand this, though the weak do not.

Farther Debate on the King's Revenue.] Mr. Pollexfen. From doubting one part of Sir Tho. Clarges. I am sorry that, at this the Revenue or another, we may come to time, when all manner of duty has been exthink there is no revenue at all; and now pressed to the king from this house, there should settle it by Bill. You have brought in question be reflections of 200,000l. well given here.' the collecting of the Revenue, and given in- I remember, persons in former parliaments had demnity to those that gathered it, and, in the places, and were to receive the Money they mean time, you give the revenue to nobody. gave, therefore were freer to give money than This is so great a loss of time, that it is not others, and we did fear to give money to others, serviceable to you, nor the present occasion of and not to the king. Though we are not all the nation, nor for the reputation of your upon one footing of honour and trust, we are affairs abroad. I thought it was taken for upon one equal footing of trust for our coungranted that it was a Revenue in the crown, try. I cannot make the Revenue be for longer &c. and when you have done, three months time than has been proposed. Is it not fit hence you will be in the same doubts. You that you should have three months to turn you will have as much to do in this, as to deter-in, that abuses may not be in the collection of mine whether it shall be for life, or years. To the Revenue? Therefore it is fit that for this talk of assisting the king with your Lives and temporary Bill you give it for three months, or Fortunes,' and not to enable the king! To as long as you please. give him power to take the Revenue, and now

Sir Wm. Williams. In the last parliament,

the spareable part will be treasured up for the good of the subject.

he was the bravest man, and some said, fellow, that would give the king most Money. All were so much for giving, that the king said, he would have no more that session. We are not now a Parliament of Officers. We represent now all the people, the wise and the weak. And I represent the weak. It is not the work of weak men, to declare a present Provision for the Crown.

Sir Tho. Littleton. It has been well moved a great while since, and I wonder at no conclusion upon it. To settle it for three months is the most acceptable and expeditious thing you can do. The king does not expect that you should settle the Revenue immediately, without great caution and consideration. Therefore that the king may be in no inconvenience, settle it for three months; which will be so far from a distrust, that it is kindly and gratefully done by the people, and the king will take it well from you.

Sir John Lowther. I was mistaken in not giving the Revenue for three months, but only for collecting what Revenue king James had, and that question you have had ready for youa safe, wise, and a sudden Resolve! The king did distinguish betwixt the Collection of the Revenue and the Settlement. I would declare it for three months.

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Mr. Finch. You give the king double the Revenue, if you do it for three months. You give him the Revenue, and the hearts of the people. This you will do in two days, and perhaps the other way not in two months.


Mr. Polleifen. If you say, I will not give the king this Revenue, but those that pay it not shall be under all the penalties as if it was

Sir Rd. Temple. I would have all arguments forborne of distrust betwixt the king and us. I am very far from desiring the short Bill to be brought in for delay of Settlement of the Revenue. Can it be imagined that bills should be brought in for all the Revenue, on a sud-given,' this will raise all the jealousy and shame den? I would make no distinction in the Bill upon us imaginable abroad. of what is continued and what not. Not by way of grant.

Mr. Eyre. If this be determined, you arrive not at your end. I see, in this matter of the Revenue, we go on very heavily. In a matter of this moment to support the honour of the king, whatever you do in this Bill, if it goes as is proposed, you do less than nothing, to the joy of your enemies, and sorrow of your friends. Therefore I propose a Vote, that you grant the king a Revenue for Life of 1,200,000l. per ann. made up of such items as in the particalar, &c. A great Revenue has been a great Grievance, but it was by no other method than we had put in their hands. Such a Revenue will be an evidence of affection to the king, and will support the necessary charge of the kingdom. And while this is the standard, it can have no oppression; and less than this proposed cannot be thought of. It will be in a Protestant hand, and you cannot doubt but

Sir Rob. Howard. I speak not for the poor or the rich, the weak or the strong, of the house. I have an office, but in some offices I would not have been employed-[reflecting upon Williams]. By the way, I would show by a motion to continue the Grand Committee, and to proceed on the Settlement of the Re-it. venue; though for the present we proceed only on the temporary Bill.


Mr. Boscawen. According to course of parliament, if you grant the king an Aid, and he accept it, the Answer is, Grandmercie ses bons sujets,' &c. If this be no Grant, what Answer shall the king give to this Bill? If as a Grant of Subsidy, the king thanks for it. There is not so much danger in the fault of collecting it as going this way. I am of opinion rather of a Vote of the lords and commons to strengthen it for the present. I shall agree to it, but it is an ill expedient, and you will be in this box, and not know how, to get out of it.

Sir Henry Capel. It is not the intention of any man here to give the king the Revenue for three months, and Pollexfen mistakes the thing. We are beholden to those gentlemen who put us in this method at first. The Book of Rates, the Act for Excise, we do not yet know; there are complaints of the ill administration of them; now is the time to correct

I speak it to the honour of the gentleman that made the motion, that you will have no delay in the thing. Then you will see the whole establishment and the expences, and what to give for an established Revenue. It is not a time to name the Revenue now; it is the doubt of some persons whether the Revenue is, or is not sunk; but continue the Revenue entire for three months, for support of the crown, and all will agree to it.

Sir John Holt. For time to consider the Revenue, I do not oppose it, but as to the hereditary part of the Revenue, if that be determined, there will be no need of such an Act. Some are of opinion that it is determined, but I have not heard one reason for it. If the king accepts this, the question is determined; and it is in being; the Revenue was given to the crown of England, and annexed to the office of king William and queen Mary; it continues, and stands in no need of a temporary act of parliament.

Mr. Wogan. It would be strange if the Revenue granted the crown, upon a valuable consideration, instead of the Court of Wards, should determine with the late king James. Was it granted on any other consideration?

Sir Tho. Lee. I am indifferent whether you put it on the hereditary, or temporary Revenue. If you had gone according to the opinion of the learned gentlemen, you had made no Act, but let them go on to collect the Revenue. The hereditary Revenue is so little, that, I believe, the house will supply it; the reason why it is asserted is, that part must go with the

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