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crown of England. But when the king must alien this to the Bankers, this must make such men as me scruple the matter.
Sir Wm. Williams. It is not the opinion of five or six men of the Robe that will guide, but what the law is.
Sir Rd. Temple. You are upon a method to proceed upon the king's Speech; all that has been moved has been contributary to it. I would have all you are to do before you, and then you will know what to apply to the Civil Government, and the other matters; as the Expence of the Dutch; and next, to assist the Dutch according to the Alliance, and the charge of it by computation given in; then, the farther charge of the Navy, besides what you are to assist the Dutch with; and then, the computation of the Affairs of Ireland. The king tells us, for Ireland it will require 20,000 men; what horse, what foot, &c. with the charge of transportation.
Sir Tho. Lee. Consider first the Charge of this present year, and then know what will make up these extraordinary charges. For the Fleet, and other charges, we are not tied up to a computation brought in to us, but what we shall judge of it.
Sir Wm. Williams.
Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a Bill be brought in to collect the Revenue till the 24th of June 1689, with a Clause of Indemnity to all who have collected it since Nov. 5, 1688, and before the 13th of February next ensuing."—Agreed to by the house.
Debate on the Vote for indemnifying the Dutch.] March 14. The house went into a grand committee on the king's Speech. Mr. Hampden in the Chair.
Mr. Hampden, jun. You have made a Vote to stand by the king with your Lives and Fortunes, in defence of the laws, and the Protestant Religion, and the king has given you a gracious Answer to your Address, and in a great measure has opened the present affairs of the nation and his allies. The condition they are in, and their deliverance, is in great measure owing to the Dutch Army under his conduct, and they have brought a great Charge upon themselves. The French king threatens Holland, and they must have a great Army to stop this torrent. In North Holland there are anore Papists than Protestants, and in other places, they have nothing to depend upon but your generosity. Ireland must be thought of; Mr. Papillon. Our condition is not so sebesides what the king informs you of, you have cure as it is thought. There is a great enemy it from other gentlemen that 20,000 horse and that has an intention to destroy both the Dutch foot are the least you can send to reduce it; and us. Here is yet no Settlement of the Rewhich will require a great sum of Money; but venue, and they will be hard put to it. I see the king promises you it shall be laid out for not so hearty a union abroad, as I could wish, the use of the nation. It is a difficult matter though I am glad to see it in this house; but I what to propose; but I humbly offer what has fear there is an intention to undermine us. been done on the like occasion in neighbouring Here is yet no Settlement of the Revenue, the countries to yours. The Dutch had formerly Oaths, nor the Courts of Justice. We know war with Spain, and lately with the French the computation of the Charge pretty near, king. They did, at the beginning of the year, and I believe the whole about 6 or 700,000l. make their State of War, and computed the If you voluntarily give the Dutch such a sun, Expences for carrying it on. By this, they without casting it up to a penny or two pence. took their measures from the king of France, But it is to me of great consequence, that as who can raise what money he pleases. He we address the king on other occasions, we makes the State of War himself, charges the may do it on this, that if we do support AlProvinces, and they levy it to his satisfaction.liances, we may be fixed in them. You cannot I move that we may address the king, that we avoid war with France, and you must support may have a Scheme or short State of the War Alliances, and let the king know so much. drawn, of the Expence we must be at. As for As for the Charge of Ireland, it is easily known, the payment of his Debt to the Dutch, that is 20,000 men being the number given in; if we in pretty good forwardness. go to particulars, we shall never have an end. And as for the Customs, though some of them have been irregular, yet gather them as they have been these 28 years. Therefore I would address the king for an Alliance with the Dutch, which will save us, and we will supply him to support them.
Sir Joseph Tredenham. It is absolutely necessary to support the government, and the Revenue is necessary to be settled for the support of the government. The methods proposed to you last time the Committee sat may be considered. We lie under the greatest obligation imaginable to the king, who has delivered us, and eased us from a Tax so burden-dence, caused the Dutch ambassador to make some to the people. You are not yet ready, I an Account in general; accordingly the Secreconceive, for Hampden's motion, but for the tary of the Admiralty made a computation of ordinary Expences, it is absolutely necessary the charge. I have it in my hand. The king to support the Government. likewise commanded the Charge of Ireland
Mr. Harbord. The king, in his great pru
I never knew the house get any thing by looking into Bills of Parcels. I am as willing as any man to give Aid as far as the kingdom can bear it. I would consider what we are able to do, and you shall see I am in earnest to come roundly to it. First, make a retribution to the States of Holland, and leave the king to dispose of it as he thinks good. It is their men, and money, that have done our work. I move for a sum not exceeding 500,000l. for that purpose.
to be computed, besides our defence at home; but that will not be perfect till to-morrow.
at a tavern, then quarrel with one another, go away, and leave the reckoning unpaid; and I fear we shall leave the Dutch so. As the gentleman said to his creditors, he will tell them to-morrow when they shall come again.' We are told of the French king and king James making preparations for Ireland; but he comes not thither as king James, but as the French king's minister. has the French king's Intendant des Finances, and the French king has made regents over him, as some would have made him here. If you would have the Papists turn our churches into chapels, and make bonfires of the Protestants, then put this debate off till to-morrow. Therefore I move that Mr. Hampden may leave the chair, and that the house be moved for a Supply, &c. and give the people credit, that the delay may be no longer laid upon us; and name a sum of Money for the States of Holland, &c.
Mr. Harbord. You have had a good motion made. I would not have Mr. Hampden leave the chair till you resolve to move the house for a Supply for the Dutch, according to the computation given in.
Mr. Harbord. It is said, it is not reasonable England should bear all the charge.' The prince took the ancient troops of the States, and agreed with the German princes to supply them; they had the money, and the prince has bought them for ever; and it is not reasonable that England should pay all that charge for six months expedition only. I told the king, it was impossible to supply all at once. Therefore (says the king) I desire 200,000l. down, and the rest of the payments betwixt this and next Spring; but there will not be so much for Ireland as for Holland. If the king of France, by fair or foul means, makes peace with Holland, you may throw your caps at Ireland. If the French king spreads his money among the Dutch, and says, 'I bave seized your ships, but will let them go, and will make Mr. Godolphin. The gentleman over the peace with you and the emperor,' what im-way was upon a topic to induce the house to pression will this make among the populace! give Money, &c. which was from the French Says the king, Let the world see you take king's tampering in Holland, &c. I was in Holland into your arms, their spirits will rise, Holland when this house was zealous for an and be able to defend themselves:' say they, actual war with France, and then a peace was Give us but this credit, if your fleet is not privately treated with France; which we ready, ours shall be.' But as for the Revenue, ought to prevent now. If we cannot reduce it cannot be computed; the Customs, by rea- Ireland, unless we secure Holland, that must son of the French goods, &c. fall to nothing. be your first step. I move therefore, that the king be addressed to make a stricter Alliance with the States, and invite the emperor into it, for common security against France.
Mr. Hampden. The committee never makes a motion for a sum: that is made in the house.
Sir Tho. Clarges. I am ready to give the States of Holland all the returns of thanks for their great assistance in our extremity, and would have a union of coalition to support them, and ourselves; but I would consider what condition we are in. Says Harbord, 'they are ready to go into a war with France, and what becomes of your Revenue then?' But consider, if the Excise be certain, if the Customs do fall, we may aid the king from time to time for that defect. At the present, here is 500,000l. besides 1,200,000l. per ann. We have already given 400,000l., and was it not upon part of the obligation to Holland? I do say, besides all the uncertainty, there is 500,000l. to supply all necessities. Take out the ordinary Revenue, and you have latitude upon the rest for taking money up upon security. The treasure of the nation is in your bands. I suppose you will dispose wisely of what is above the ordinary expence of the government.
Mr. Pollerfen. Though we pay more for this Expedition than it has cost the Dutch, let us not enter into particulars; it will more heartily show our affection without examining them. The interest of the king puts us upon embracing the Dutch; if we show coldness, or delay, to aid and assist them, what will the world say? That we do not make returns for what they have done for us. I know no king, but the French king, that can hurt us, and considering what our ancestors have done, have we not by the prevalency of that king destroyed our neighbours? Let the world see we are returned to our senses, and that we are truly English.-The Speaker took the Chair.
Mr. Boscawen. The nature of the question, To give the king a Supply, to enable him to reimburse the Dutch, &c.' If the gentleman means to prove the charge, Harbord told you the king had examined it; and I believe if you will examine it farther, you will get nothing by that.
Sir Tho. Clarges. I would have something we understand. The Account is in guilders; we know not the value of them. I would have them computed to the value of our money. The debate runs upon Aid and Supply. It is not fit to state the Revenue, what it is for the maintenance of the Government? It is not reasonable we should bear all the charge. Taken down to order by
Mr. Papillon. Eleven guilders is 10s. sterling, which, by ordinary computation, will come to 665,7521. sterling, for the Dutch charges.
Mr. Howe. There were reflections abroad an our proceedings yesterday. I would not believe ourselves like bullies, to eat and drink VOL. V.
Sir Tho, Lee. I confess, I know not how to speak in this. It seems, by some gentlemen, if we come not to a sudden Resolution in this, we are undone; but possibly this nation and N
Holland will not be lost for one night's consi- Sir Rd. Temple. You see the present conderation. I have seen money granted here dition you are in. I would revive the Comsuddenly, but by them that have had shares inmittee for banishing the Papists out of town. it afterwards. If the importance of this be I know not what to advise you, unless an Adsuch that we must break order, as formerly in dress to the king to take some speedy course the Long Parliamentwith the Papists; and I would have a Bill, That, if any person shall write, speak, or declare for king James, he be specdily brought to trial.'
Mr. Howe. When I heard Lee move, I looked to see what o'clock it was. I would leave dinners for once, and go on.
Sir Wm. Williams. I can fast as well as Howe, but I cannot pray so well.
Mr. Howe. If Williams had gone on in the way he was once in, we should have had all fasting and no praying. Sir Wm. Williams. Howe has forgot that the Bishops were acquitted, and who had a hand in doing it.
Mr. Howe. I protest, I do not accuse Williams for acquitting them.
The debate was adjourned to the following day ; when it was resolved, "That 600,000l. be given to his majesty, to enable him to defray the Charges laid out by the Dutch in the Expedition to England."
Mr. Hampden. For the nature of the thing, I shall state the case; you need not be long resolving. I believe this an actual levying war by 25 Edw. 3. You cannot have counsel here that will be difficult. Do you but resolve this to be treason, and if king William and queen Mary be king and queen, this is treason; and correspondence, upon levying war, is treason, I believe. I would apply to the king to take some course in this, and that you will assist him.
Debate on the Mutiny of lord Dumbarton's Regiment.] March 15. Mr. Harbord. Lord Dumbarton's regiment, which is now marshal Schomberg's, with the grenadiers and some officers, have deserted, and chosen two captains. They have seized the Artillery at Ipswich, and have made Proclamation for king James. The regiment of fusileers is at Har- Sir Wm. Williams. No doubt this is an wich; they say, they will declare with them. actual levying war. Since you have acknowThey are 1500 men, with the train of artillery,* ledged king William and queen Mary to be and how many will join them I do not know. king and queen, whoever does adhere to the Sir Jonathan Jennings. In order to what king's enemies, in or out of the kingdom, it is has been reported, certainly I believe there is treason; so you need not make a law for it more than ordinary in these things. I have ex post facto, but it is provided by your old law received a letter from the mayor of Rippon, of to be treason; for they are king and queen some Papists, to the same effect; that the de facto; and that law is a safe foundation for Papists are very high, ride in numbers, and you to go upon; and come to a speedy resohave cabals. Therefore I think it fit that you lution of this house, that they have comsecure your sitting here, and that the Govern-mitted treason, and so bring them to a speedy ment may be preserved. judgment, and thus the people will go along with you.
Mr. Harbord. I hear, by letters from Norwich, that a Papist was seen by several to go into a house, and immediately the house was on fire, and he got to a place to have the prospect of it.' The person is examined and secured.
Mr. Howe. When we look before us, and see these things, there is a fault somewhere. I would know how these officers remain in command; and would address the king that some of the Dutch troops may be sent after them. I know not which else to trust.
Col. Birch. This is no jesting business; this is the countenance of more men than those 600 that were quartered at Brentford, and went away with their arms; and I believed they would come to the rest. This is not done without conduct; and you will have an army in a few days. I would address the king, That some foot and horse of the king's own, and what may be trusted, may join together,' and I hope, without a Bill, to dispatch these men.
* These regiments had been ordered by his majesty (with some others) to repair to the sea side, under the command of lord Churchill. (See the Journal). They all took the road to Scotland. General Ginkle was ordered to pursue them with a sufficient force of horse and dragoons, who soon obliged them to submit to the king's mercy; and the only punishment be inflicted on them was to send them over to serve in Holland.
Sir George Treby. In this, I observe one thing, that it is good we have a king, for if we had had no king, nor parliament sitting, since they are so insolent in the face of the king andparliament, what would they have done if the nation had wanted one of them? In this crisis, if we cannot defend ourselves by law and sword, it is time for us to dig our graves, and lie down in them. Can any man doubt that this is treason? Your declaring it to be treason will weaken it, as if it were a doubt. I confess, I am not capable of advising you what to do, and (with great respect) I think this house not proper for military men's advice. We must go to war and open force, and we must oppose force with force, and maintain in the field what we have done in our council and senate. Therefore I move that the lord lieutenancies and deputies may be in such hands as the kingdom may be, and we sit in safety. I think all the powers of our profession useless in such
Sir Robert Clayton. The wonder of all this is, that we have not heard one word of the trumpeters of these disorders. They cannot forbear reflections upon persons the nation has an bonour for. At Newcastle, some priests labour, all they can, to promote this work. I would have something done to stop these people's mouths.
of opinion, that it is a vain thing to declare this Desertion of the Soldiers to be treason.' This at the first was taken only for soldiers mutinying, but what is there in declaring this to be within the 25th of Edw. 3? Soldiers deserting and corresponding with the king's enemies to be treason? You must speak out and say, this is high treason, and this will put an end to it, and men will be afraid to countenance it; and go to the lords, that, by your joint advice, the king may issue out his Procla mation to inforce the law, as your advice, as the only proper remedy, and that you will give the king your assistance in it.
Sir John Lowther. At the same time when you advise the Proclamation, consider the occasion, and then the proper remedies, that the cause may be taken away. In former reigns, criminals were so much the more enemies by how much they were in desperation, and therefore I would put men out of doubt, and make as many friends as we can. Therefore I move, that whether, as you made a strict enquiry into Grievances, there may not as well be an Act of Oblivion at the same time, and, at the same time, that you address the king to proclaim his pardon to such as shall surrender themselves, and return to their obedience and duty.
Col. Mildmay. It is generally believed that these you are informed of are not barely alone, but that it is universal; and, as for those trumpeters, who have forborne praying for king William and queen Mary, and go not to church to bear it prayed, the question is, which is the best way to prevent this? It is said, 'What is done in so great an assembly will not be long a secret.' I think this proper in the king's council to whom you have given the government. The militia of England is a great body, 150,000 men, that serve you gratis; they bear their own charges, and you are safe in them. This being delayed (with some other things which have been too long) I cannot wonder now at the circumstances we are under: I rather wonder that we are so well, than so ill. I would recommend it to the king to settle the Militia, and especially that of London. As for the Money, I doubt not that you will lose any time. In the mean time, I would have letters to the sheriffs to stop them in their march.
Sir Henry Capel. I think you are ripe for a question. It is plain from what I have heard from the robe that this is treason. Corresponding with the late king is treason. I hope in time, that care will be taken that this impudence of preaching may be taken care of, and it will be mended. I would apply to the king for a Proclamation against these men.
Major Wildman. I have heard sad news, and many things have been well proposed; but the suppressing these men it is proper to leave to the king: but we ought to represent it to the king; and now we see so great a boil broke out, how many are like to break out? It is our duty to inform the king what we hear from all parts. I must inform the house that I have letters every day of the ill condition of the soldiers in their quarters; at Newbury, Abingdon, and other places, they would not suffer the cryer, or bell-man, to say, God bless king William and queen Mary! There are papers cast about, to fright people with the change of the government, with millions; bundreds of these are dispersed; I have received some. The disease is so general, I know not what to propose; but it is proper for this house to give the king the best informations we can of the officers who connive at these things. I offer to the house to address the king to take a special care of the places where the late king's soldiers are quartered, and especially to have an eye that the officers prevent disorders, and to be fully assured of his officers, both civil and military.
Mr. Hampden. I offer it, notwithstanding the opinion of the learned gent., as I am not
Sir Rob. Howard. The lords and commons addressing the king makes the Proclamation have greater force, and next to an act of parliament; but as for the Oblivion just moved to be put in, it looks as if you were afraid, and is a kind of seconding these men in their rebellion, and all this will look little less than an act of parliament.-An Address was voted aċcordingly.
Resolved, nem. con. "That au Address be presented to his majesty to desire him to take effectual care to suppress the Soldiers that are now in Rebellion, and to issue his Proclamation to declare them, and all that adhere to them, to be Rebels and Traitors." And the same day, the said Address being drawn and approved of, was, with the concurrence of the lords, presented to the king at Hampton-court; who was pleased to return the following Answer:
"That he should be very ready and careful to give such orders, as the lords and commons should desire; and that he had already appointed three regiments of dragoons, with orders to stop them and bring them to their duty; and, if they will not submit, to fall upon them: and that he would send immediate directions to his Attorney-General, to prepare a Proclamation, according to the desire of both houses, in the Address."
Debate on the Bill for disarming Papists.] March 16. Serj. Maynard. We are so mealymouthed and soft-handed to the Papists, that it occasions their insolence. I think it is fitting that all Papists should resort to their own dwellings, and not depart without licences from the next justices; and another thing, that all those of that religion bring all their fire-arms
done, and speedily done, but put not your-
in, unless for the necessary defence of their
Col. Birch. I think Maynard's is an excellent motion, and in good time. If we make a new Bill, perhaps it will not do so well, but, upon this motion of Maynard's, I would refer it to the same committee for the lords Bill, and farther, that the informer may have half the arms for his discovery.
Mr. Wogan. If you find not a way to convict them, you cannot disarm them. I would have a clause for it in the Bill.
Serj. Maynard. If any Papist should have a hand in firing houses, he should be compelled to help to rebuild them. For the present, if they do not deliver their arms upon the king's Proclamation, they shall be subject to such penalties as the law shall direct; in the mean time, that they be admonished.
The Speaker. I would not have this without effect, which, I apprehend, it will be unless they are convicted, and being not convicted they will say they are not concerned, not being convicted, and not one man will go out of town, nor deliver their arms. Unless actually convicted, you cannot know a Papist, and you will have no effect of this Proclamation.
Serj. Maynard. What you say is true, but they know themselves to be Papists, and upon the Proclamation you may lay your hands upon them severely.
Mr. Hampden. The insolence of the Papists is grown great, I hear out of the country. Do not give them encouragement by a brutum fulmen. I will not contradict Maynard in point of law; I know not who are Papists. He must be a legal Papist, else he is not within the Proclamation. Proclamations are to enforce, not to make, laws. He will keep his house according to law, and not go out of town. What law have you to compel him to deliver his horses? There you make a law clearly. I would not have gentlemen think that I believe it not just; but will you advise the king to cause the Papists to deliver up all sorts of horses, that are fit for warlike service, either for baggage, or dragoons? We shall terrify people by this Proclamation, the parliament now sitting; and we are told we must make an Act do it. I confess this is new; I never heard it in a Proclamation before. If you advise the king this, he will say, 'see you advise me according to law;' he will order his counsel learned to draw it up; but they will say, it is not according to law. It is a hard point; if these objections are not of weight, I am mistaken. But you may have a law to offer the Papists the Tests, and you may have it presently executed by justices of the peace, when they are named. Something must be
Mr. Howe. If these gentlemen, the Papists, want paper to stop their guns, they may do it with Proclamations. I would have the king take up such persons as he may have just cause to suspect.
Col. Birch. I would not have this morning's debate lost, but have some fruits of it. I humbly desire that a committee may sit, and, upon debate of the house, a Bill may be brought in to convict them.
Sir Rd. Temple. I doubt that Bill will not do your business that is calculated for London; you will so alter the frame of that bill, that it would be better to have it in another bill.
Resolved, "That a Bill be brought in for the more speedy convicting and disarming of Papists."
March 16. The commons being commanded The King's Speech in favour of Dissenters.] to attend the king in the house of peers, his majesty gave the royal assent to The Bill for suspending the Habeas Corpus Act,' and that, 'to annul the Attainder of lord Russel :' and made the following Speech to both houses:
occasion of coming hither to pass these Bills, "My lords and gentlemen; Now I have the I shall put you in mind of one thing, which will conduce much to our Settlement, as a Settlement will to the disappointment of our enemies.-I am with all the expedition I ean, filling up the vacancies that are in Offices and Places of trust, by this Revolution. I know you are sensible there is a necessity of some law to settle the Oaths to be taken by all persons to be admitted to such Places. I recommend it to your care to make a speedy provision for it: and as I doubt not but you will suffi ciently provide against Papists, so, I hope, you will leave room for the Admission of all Protestants that are willing and able to serve. This conjunction in my service, will tend to the better uniting you among yourselves, and adversaries." the strengthening you against your common
Trials.] March 20. A Bill, from the lords, Debate on the Bill for the Regulation of for the Regulation of Trials, was read the first time.
Sir Tho. Lee. If I had not once seen a Bill of this nature laid on the table, and passed in an afternoon, I should not be against letting it lie on the table. Lord Clarendon's Bill of Banishment was passed a month after the Impeachment, when it was thought most convenient for him; which then I thought of dangerous consequence. It is my opinion that this Bill be thrown out; notwithstanding the good Clauses in it, it may be done for me and my family. When bills upon the first appearout upon the first reading. ance are dangerous, they are usually thrown things in this parliament of a piece. You would have all thought good for the present emergency to