and let all pass, and the lords think they can do something in the discovery, and the commons delay contributing to it.' This will be

said.

Mr. Hampden. The question is not properly Agree or not,' but you may divide the question. I am for maintaining all the privileges of the house, but you have none for obstructing justice. Our common law is founded upon eternal maxims of reason of any municipal law in the world; the civil law, the When municipal law of the Romans, was so. your privilege stops justice, it is time to hinder it. In the Popish Plot, the lords sent for some of the commous to give evidence, and particularly in the case of sir Edmundbury Godfrey, the lords sent for witnesses perpetually. The thing is not judicially before you. In lord Bristol's Case, accusing lord Clarendon, the lords over-ruled it, That a lord could not accuse another in parliament.'* In such cases, when the lords desire evidence, and you plead privilege, I could wish privilege out of doors. Resolved, "That leave be given to Mr. Serjeant Trenchard, and Mr. Hampden, jun. to attend the lords.t"

Mr. Sucheverell. Now you have given leave to your members, the lords will easily understand it, but leave it an indifference for any to go that will.

Debate on the Merchants' Petition against Captain Churchill.] Sir Robert Clayton. I

• See vol. iv. p. 283.

am sorry for the occasion of this day's consideration. Lee has told you, That no complaints of captains misbehaving themselves had reached the Admiralty.' I could wish it had reached no other mens ears. Merchants are forced to hire Dutch capers, much cheaper than they can get our own, for convoys. The merchants tell me, 'They will give you proof, and produce receipts from captains of Convoymoney, of above 300l. I have a Petition from some merchants; they are ready to lay before you matters, with fair proof, of refusing convoys, without great reward, and are ready with evidence.

Sir Robert Howard. Now we are come to a point, and a great one; therefore, I move, That the Speaker may take the Chair, to receive the Petition.

Sir Tho. Clarges. Whether we had ill conduct of deceit, I will not determine, but I am sure we are very unfortunate, when a great fleet is in harbour, and lies there, and consumes all its victuals, and no account of its service. Your men are debauched, and the captains come to London to riot, and never went out to cruise, and no advantage is taken of that Fleet. You have heard of want of convoys; though this of trade is the life of the land, yet we are over-reached in treaties. The Dutch are at a fifth less charge in men I could wish our debate would tend than we. to a remedy for the time to come. I have heard of ships that have lain a year for a voyage, and the captains have taken all their men, and the ships have been lost. Formerly we had men sufficient to carry on the war, and yet carry on our trade. The Dutch are our great competitors in trade, and we join with them in war. I think, at least, we ought to prevent these mischiefs for the future. There was a time when the government of England, though an usurpation, had the French, Spaniards, and Hollanders, all enemies. Their fleet was executed by commission, not by one admiral, but it had three, Blake, Deane, and Popham. As far as my prudence reaches, I would not commit the Fleet to one admiral, but to three.*-The Speaker resumed the Chair.

+"The commons gave their consent, and the said two members did give their attendance accordingly: but though they had both partaken so largely of the same persecution, and Mr. Hampden in particular had all the reason imaginable to contribute all the lights in his power, as having been chiefly brought within the reach of it, by the Artifices of the marquis of Halifax, (against whom, in the first place, the enquiry was intended) neither of them now appeared in a disposition to take the revenge which seemed to be in their power: of Trenchard's informations no memorial remains and of Hampden it is only said, That he made a long speech, tending more to magnify his own concern in the Revolution, than Sir Rob. Clayton. I have here a Petition to discover the advisers of lord Russell's Mur- from Merchants, who have had to the value of der. Sir Peter Rich, col. Godfrey, and Mr. 600,000l. taken from them by pirates, and Anthony Row, all members, were also called French capers. If you please to give the merupon by the lords, to declare what they knew chants a day, they will make out their comconcerning the several points, before the complaints. Many have been taken within sight mittee; nor was any other person omitted, of land, betwixt Scilly and Plymouth, and the who had either acted in, or suffered under, the French have done it. violences of the late times: it was the business of the latter to accuse, and endeavours were used to make the former confess: but these were too much upon their guard, and those were so defective in their evidence, that, as bishop Burnet observes, though the enquiry lasted some weeks, and gave occasion to much heat, nothing appeared, that could be proved, upon which Votes and Addresses might be founded," Ralph.

Mr. Garroway. When the Petition was opened, you were told of Convoy-Money: I would have the Petitioners called in, to aver the giving of Convoy-Money.

Sir Rob. Clayton. they will prove it.

Give them time, and

Sir Tho. Lee. I would have them called in,

* It was committed to three in 1690, viz. Delaval, Shovel, and Killigrew.

Sir Tho. Lee. I think myself as little concerned as any man. You are told, both, &c. might have been taken care of;' but I think it could not. It must be remembered, that the Streights Fleet are refitting, and Berkeley's in harbour, which make up twenty-seven or eight: so that number being added to Berkeley's and those designed for the Indies and Streights, I think the Admiralty not much asleep in the

service.

The Petitioners being called in, were ordered to attend on Monday; and captain George Churchill, a member of the house, had notice to attend in his place at the same time.

Debate on the State of the Nation.] Nov. 14. The house went into a grand committee on the State of the Nation.

Mr. Howe. I think the question is, Whether the Merchants were lost for want of being kept, as the Chairman states it? I would consider every part by itself: 1. That the Miscarriages are faults, and not misfortunes: 2. How the Toulon Fleet came to join the Brest fleet, and, 3. How king James got into Ireland. Not guarding the seas has been a great fault. If the admirals are in fault, put them out; punish them. When the men were to go into Ireland, there was nothing to transport them, and no provision for them. Name the persons that are to blame; come to the root, and that is the way to cure the branches. Provisions were faulty, and, in some places, none to be had. No man can be angry with a man for getting a good place, or buying it cheap; enquire into those who put them in. Scotland is in ill hands; in Flanders we pay for 10,000 men, and have not 3000. These little things moved are below us. At the good spring in Hyde Park, if one pipe runs muddy, then cleanse it; but if the whole spring runs muddy, we shall think somebody stirs it with a dirty stick. I do not like shooting cannon at sparrows.

Sir Tho. Littleton. If you can find out persons, punish them ; but, in the mean time, find out the thing. When you have found out stations for Ships, as merchants can best inforın you, if you apply to the king he will remedy it, but not to pick holes in the government.

Sir John Guise. Do you think this will make more discontent in the nation than is already? Every sea-port knows and speaks it. I have heard, and am afraid, that when the French came out, some of ours came in. If you believe that was so, that your Ships were called away, and your Merchants left, you may resolve it. I am afraid the removing those ships was the loss.

Col. Birch. We all agree, that one such a year's war more will make an end of you. In short, from one end to the other, there is no part of what we have done this year that will serve our turn the next year. It is not as formerly, when care was taken to suppress that debauchery that is now, both in the Navy and Army, and till you suppress damning and swearing: [He was called to name them.] He replied, Pray name them that do not-not to talk of spending 500,000l. in the tail of the year. Formerly, Merchants were hired and sent out, whose interest it was; they paid them well, and the sea was well guarded. They did not do as they did this year, pack them up like herrings in a barrel; they brought the nation to that greatness, that all the world durst not look us in the face. Then Money went out carefully and regularly. Sometimes the Commissioners went as low as Chatham, and then they did more in two months than now in twelve. If this is the thing, what do you enquire after? Part with your Money, and wait better luck. That 18 or 20 French ships should come from Toulon to Brest, and nobody hear of them! Pardon that piece of ill luck in our people, to be asleep all that while. It looks like something either to weaken you, or to bring you to a Treaty with the French. These men formerly would have been at Cork or Kinsale in all this time, and made it but an hour's work. As for the question, That the Sea has been ill-guarded,' it is part of our bad luck; but I care not much that you should put it, for they tell you, Those were called back by the king's command;' but to send none in their place,-I believe his majesty a prince of better conduct than to aver such a thing. If gentlemen agree with me, that neiSir Joseph Tredenham. I think nothing will ther our conduct nor way of fighting, are fit to more satisfy the people, than to let them be done again next year, we must have other see that we do it for their benefit, that they hands next year, else the game is up; had you may pay taxes more easily. I move that it other hands, I would give my consent to hang may be represented what an ill state we are in. good numbers. To have shoes made by a Sir Tho. Clarges. If it be a Grievance that joiner! Men may be gallant, but not skilled trade is obstructed for want of Convoys, you in sea-matters till they know. You need not ought to declare it so. What else would you press Merchant-Ships; they will come in; but redress? I lay no imputation on gentlemen; II will speak no more of men I do not know. do not arraign the thing; but the loss of seven or eight vessels is an inconsiderable thing: and you will be at the same pass next year. Call it a Grievance, and put your stamp upon it.

Sir Tho. Clarges. I think the Trade of the nation is no sparrow.' You are told of a 10%. convoy, &e. is that nothing? I know no greater offence in the government than raising money on the subject; it is an obstruction of trade, and a great Grievance, and we must look for a remedy. The great end of enquiry into these matters, is to prevent coming into them again. I move, That the question may be, That the not guarding the Seas, is an obstruction of Trade, and a Grievance to the Nation.'

Had we Tarpaulins to command, we should, next year, have something like something.

Admiral Russel. I know not well where to begin. I have had the honour to be long in

Sir John Trevor. The State of the Nation

you are now to consider. Great mismanage ments have been, whether by mistakes, misfortunes, or corruptions. We can have no remedy but from the king; therefore I would have the house moved to represent to the king the State of the Nation; and then you may come to the Heads, and the first moved to be voted the first Head; and then whether any thing amiss in relation to the government, to bring it in, whether in the disposition of the Army, or the Fleet before Brest; and, in the last

the navy, which seems now charged with ig norance, cowardice, or corruption. I am will ing to decline that service, and had I thought I could not have been serviceable to the government, my own condition is so easy that I might have declined it. It is said, 'When the French came out, we ran away. These are hard things, and men will justify themselves from this hard imputation. We lay on the French coast six weeks, and, I believe, for the most part, not three leagues from Ushant. We lay there as long as weather would permit. We are accused of letting the Toulon squad-place, to offer your advice to the king how ron join the Brest.' We had no way to know it but by scouts. There are foggy nights, weather, and winds, that carry us eight or ten leagues from thence. Nobody that served in the Fleet but was desirous to prevent this, as any gentleman here. I attribute this to misfortune only. Unless we should pull the French out of port by the ears, I know not how to have fought. I do aver this, that fifteen days❘tion' is our business. Though we go several after we left Brest, no ship came in there. I desire that either these things may be proved, or these reflections laid aside.

Mr. Hampden. Nobody is more ready to redress Grievances than I, and I would have you take some way to redress your Grievances. I would have all persons speak without passion or reflections. In the Letters that were intercepted you find it said, 'That though it was a cold season, yet it was like to be hot weather in this house.' And nothing but personal reflections will do it. If you go and look back to Miscarriages, set your bounds how far you will go. I have never meddled with persons in this house for this 30 years. If you will look back, say how far. I know not whether the Fleet be weak or strong. That the French are too strong, is as much the cause as you too weak. Who would have thought of this formerly? I say, this greatness came from the Pensioner-Parliament that sold their country. Their greatness arose from our treachery. That there is treachery now at sea, is the complaint; the reason, because there are too many Votes on the other side. Can a house, and a family, and all, be removed on a sudden? There is something to be indulged in this. I never had employment nor money before. I have got nothing, only I desire quiet with my neighbours. I do not only serve the king as my prince, but (pardon the mean expression) as one whom I love. Be pleased to agree what you would have done, without personal reflection.

Col. Austen. It has been asked, To what time will you go back for enquiry into Miscarriages? It has this answer--as far as the necessity of affairs will lead you. In a private family, if you entertain all those old servants that have ruined you before, what can you expect? I remember Howe told you of awls and bristles in a shop; you would not think a painter but a shoe-maker was there. If you hope for better management, these journeymen, and their tools too, must be laid aside.

these things may be remedied. You need not call these things Grievances; they will be so manifest they will call themselves grievances. Howe would find something against these persons in the government; but to go back and ravel into, that will never have an end. I would not be hollowed off from one thing to another. It is the present State of the Na

ways, yet all are for regulating affairs to keep out the French and the Irish. Till you have Reports, from Committees, of the several branches, I would adjourn the debate, and make report to the house of what you have done.

Sir Tho. Lec. I am unwilling that these things which will naturally follow should be called Grievances. It is as natural that trade be obstructed, as that you make war; and all you can do cannot prevent ships being taken. You may say as well, the French war is a Grievance. I will not conceal faults, nor say there are none, but I think the nation cannot bear the expence long. That which I move you is to search the Adıniralty-books, and compute all, and then you will see how the Money went away. I stand up only that I would not have any outcry against the government. That which is done could not be helped. You are at war with one kingdom, and have another to conquer. I desire, whatever censure you pass, do it as it deserves, when you have examined all; if you make men unable to serve the king, you stop the war. I move, That you will appoint a Committee to search the Admiralty-books for their orders, and numbers of ships, and see the state of the ships, and then give your judgment.

Mr. Elwill. It is a strange thing we should have so many ships at sea, and never meet any French ships; and it is strange doctrine to have so much loss by capers of six or ten guns; and if we cannot fortify ourselves against capers, how shall we against men of war? If the committee will enquire into the numbers of ships for stations, that will be your only way to secure trade.

Sir Edw. Seymour. By the debate of the committee it is difficult for me to know in what manner to apply my discourse. I know not what ill-luck there is without doors, but I am sure we have it within, when there are personal reflections. Our treasures are spent and turn to little account, and those Mis

carriages are repeated. It is said, Our ships are taken by privateers, and not by men of war.' We had enough to have cleared our coasts, if they had been sent out to lie in a line of battle. We are told, We may repair to the Admiralty-books to be informed, &c.' If once we have loss of Trade for want of Convoy-You will see by the Admiralty-books what ships have been appointed for Guards. If we confirm these Miscarriages, we invite the same to be done next year. Because of the misfortune in another government, what did it occasion, but the loss of that government, and an abdication of a king, a thing never heard of before! But you will find that parliament called a 'Pensioner-Parliament,' were enemies to France and Popery. I hope there are no Pensioners in this parliament, but I am sure it is full of Officers, and an OfficeredParliament;' and now we speak of Miscarriages, we are told, That is branding the Government, and reflecting;' pay your Money, and that is omnia bene. I heard it once said in the Long Parliament, by sir Edw. Baynton, 'That he heard things that would make a cat speak; but, before God, this makes me speak. I move, that you will vote, That the not guarding the Sea is the occasion of the decay of trade, and loss of treasure;' and then in time you may look into the Admiralty-books. As for admiral Russel, I believe him the last man that would do ill in the Navy, and the last man that can be reflected on.

6

Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this committee, That the want of a Guard, or Convoys, for the Merchants, for the last year, hath been an obstruction of Trade, and an occasion of great losses to the nation." Which was agreed to by the house.

Debate on disfranchising the Borough of Stockbridge for Bribery and Corruption †.] Nov. 15. Sir Wm. Williams. For us to quarrel with our own elections, who serve for boroughs, and to add the boroughs to counties, is a matter of great weight, and deserves consideration. If the constitution had been so

|

from the beginning, much might be said for it. I hope, at this time of day we shall not alter the constitution of England. You are a wise parliament, and this is a thing of the first impression. You break the ice by this, and give a handle to throw boroughs into counties; and another parliament may throw counties into boroughs. I move, That you will adjourn

the debate.

Sir Edw. Seymour. I am very tender in any new proposal, that changes the order of your constitution. The best way to preserve it is to put it upon a right foot. That one of the third parts of the state should alter any thing of the whole, is strange. But gentlemen forget their constitution of knights, citizens, and burgesses! Burgesses are for manufactures, and other advantages; they may present you with what may increase them. Instead of giving money to be chosen, you would find it otherwise, when boroughs shall give wages. Is that the guide of the legislature? The consequence of that will be, the other boroughs will be terrified. If men must buy to come hither, they will sell when they come here. This borough paid but nine pound, the last tax, to the governiment.

Mr. Hawles. They in this town that have taken Bribes have offended highly. When the Long Parliament made the government a Commonwealth, they disfranchised all boroughs, and diminished the numbers of parliamentmen. I think doing that would alter the government. Therefore I would take some time to consider that before I would do it.

Mr. Foley. This case is of great consequence, and you ought to consider of it. The Records show, that towns have desired to be excused from sending up burgesses by reason of their poverty, not being able to pay wages. Suppose you suspend this town from sending burgesses till they have got a better body of men to elect. I would consider it.

Sir John Trevor. I never heard of boroughs dissolved before. I am afraid, if this question pass, you, Mr. Speaker, and I, shall sit no more in that chair. I have the honor to serve for a † It appeared, on the Report from the Com- borough in Devonshire (Beeralston) for which mittee, that both the sitting member, (Mr. I am obliged to a member of the house, (MayWm. Montagu) and the petitioner (Mr. Strode) nard) and to the gentlemen of that country. If had been guilty of Bribery; and thereupon the you break the ancient constitution of elections, opinion of the Committee (with which the I know not the consequence. If the offence of house agreed) was, That neither of them was this borough be Corruption, it is the highest. duly elected, and that the election was void.' That boroughs have, upon their own desire, The bailiff of Stockbridge, and three more, for been exempted, there are a great many precegiving and taking of Bribes, were ordered into dents. In the Long Parliament many boroughs custody of the serjeant; but the question for were revived. This house voted it a franchise, disabling Mr. Montagu from being elected a and not forfeited by disusage, being inherent burgess for that borough in the present parlia- in the body of the people, declared upon a ment passed in the Negative, 158 to 135. The contest betwixt the king and the parliament question that followed, and which occasioned in 1641, and many wise men were in that parthe above debate, was, ' Whether the said Bo-liament. The security of the nation was ever rough should be disfranchised for ever hereafter from sending burgesses to parliament; and, instead thereof, that two more knights for the shire be chosen for the county of Southampton.' See the Journal.

VOL. V.

thought in the mixture of this house. What shall then become of merchants, to inform you of Trade? The house stands upon ancient constitutions, and I hope you will not remove old land-marks,

2 F