Mr. Finch. Though this is a poor borough, and Bribery has been found in the election of members, yet the disfranchising of it carries a great consequence. This is not the first poor borough guilty of Bribery; but it happens to be first questioned; and shall all the poor boroughs be disfranchised, because this poor borough has been guilty of corruption? At Westbury, formerly, there was Bribery, and the mayor was fined; had there been reason for it, it would have been disfranchised. Before you make this first step, pray consider of it till Monday. Which was ordered. It does not appear by the Journals, that the matter was revived. Debate on the Defect of Ordnance, &c.] Nov. 16. Sir Henry Goodrick. I am to acquaint you with that which admits no delay, and if not speedily taken care of, no man in England is safe. With the king's leave, (I durst not else) I must acquaint you, that there is a Petition to the Office' of Ordnance from men of great quality and esteem, from all the powdermakers of England, (I do not charge this upon any particular person, but I hope you will not let the king want) from the gun-smiths, the ironmongers, the salt-petre men, gun-powder men, matchmakers, &c. desiring to be furnished with Moneys to support their credit. The Board of Ordnance has not been deficient, but the king's service cannot be pursued without your assistance. Those powder-makers who belong to the several counties have made 24,000 barrels, of which a great deal is lost and spent. You cannot depend upon more than 600 barrels, all the work standing still. They want but one single Vote of encouragement. You want all this to set out your men of war. I see an hon. gent. who can tell you how those guns have been directed. It is of great importance: the Petition is from men of great credit. The store is so low, there is not above 30 ton of brimstone. The Merchants have sent word to the Office of Ordnance, that they will have 207. a ton; and now they refuse to enter into any contract at all; without something of your encouragement, it will be lost. I move you for a special Committee to enquire, and a Note for encouragement. Sir John Guise. I now hear what I have seen a good while. You give Money for the war, and you know not whither it goes. If to the Navy you transfer credit, look where you will, you find it not disposed as you intend it. The best thing you can do, is not to see your Money diverted. I hope you will give some encouragement to these men, and appoint a Committee to know the State of the Account of the Nation, and you will see these that are honest. Mr. Hampden. I agree with the premises of that gentleman, but not the conclusions. Your Money has not been diverted from the Navy, Army, nor Ordnance. The king has not received by 150,000l. of what you have appropriated. If you enter into a war, and your money does not answer, you cannot be served. If you appropriate the money, I hope it will not be to all the uses, for then the offices must stand still. If it has been embezzled in Musters, enquire into it. Suppose now a great deal of money is wanted at the Ordnance, there is 25,000l. laid out upon salt-petre, if this money has been diverted; if soldiers had robbed and stole, and entered upon gentlemens estates for want of money—I can make out that many a 10,000l. is come short of what you have given. Mr. Garroway. I did not expect any thing of this, this day. When we computed the charge of the War, we did include the Office of Ordnance, and now they cannot carry on the war without more money. There were Stores in the office, and we have had no fight. I have heard of debts upon an old foot of account. I would know whether this is upon the new or old account. Sir Henry Goodrick. The Office of Ordnance has avoided all manner of account of charge. All this now demanded is made within the compass of one year, there has been such extraordinary emption since. There is no old debt at all of sir Thomas Chichley's time, but this is for Stores actually since 'twas in this king's service. The Office of Ordnance has not failed in asking, nor the Treasury in giving. Sir Tho. Clarges. I take the public Revenue to be 1,900,000l. per ann. You have passed a Vote for 600,000l. per ann. for the Civil List, but it cannot appear to be above 300,000/. in time of peace, understanding in time of war, all that can be spared out of the Revenue to the public interest of the kingdom. I think it very extraordinary that the Ordnance should make these Reports here: it is to the Treasury they ought to apply. Here is a bill for a goose, and a bill for a gauder. Common fame says, the Army is not paid, nor the Fleet, only Subsistence-Money. They cannot at Plymouth ship above half the companies. It is said, the Dutch officers are paid, and the English not paid, and for some months behind-hand. This is making us Commissioners of Accounts, by bringing these Accounts to us. We have lost great opportunities in Ireland; I hope they will give you a better account. Sir Edw. Seymour. Whether money has been diverted, or misapplied, this is matter of fact; the Seamen are not paid, and the Office of Ordnance is in a miserable condition. I will tell you this for matter of fact, and lay it before you, and I will undertake to make it out upon undeniable records; that in January last, all the Stores of the Ordnance and Navy were fully provided, yet remaining in the Office of the Ordnance to the value of a million. I would know where the expence has been; no occasion of consumption, there must be a fault somewhere. Col. Austin. The point of fact before you is a defect of the Ordnance, and is there not a necessity to supply that defect, to give credit, and enquire into faults afterwards? Sir Tho. Lee. I find one office draws on another. Gentlemen will see, by the accounts of the Treasury, that the Seamen cannot be paid. 400,000l. has been paid to the Navy, but that is from the last of Dec. I do not think it proper, as the king's officer, to complain without command, or direction, from the king; I am here as a member of parliament. You will find, upon enquiry, how little came in of the money you gave. Sir Henry Capell. I know not well the drift of this debate. I would gladly have the Revenue made out 1,900,000l. per ann. The Excise is to pay a considerable sum of the prince of Orange's Money. Till you see the Accounts and the Vouchers, 'tis a hard thing to say, That my steward has embezzled my money.' How far Guise's abilities are in Accounts, I know not; but this may startle a man, till he sees the nature of the Accounts. I hope every body, hand in hand, will be as thrifty as they can. Sir John Guise. If I am the man reflected on, I am as capable of reckoning 1, 2, 3, as another man. As for Money, I would give it as soon as any body. Mr. Sacheverell. I am surprized at the motion. 1,900,000l. gone and neither the Ariny nor Navy paid? I must wonder how 900,000l. all comes under lord Ranelagh's care: the Fleet nor the Irish army is concerned. How can it come about that the armies of Holland and England come to 900,000l.? I do not understand it: I desire be would inform the house of it. The Earl of Ranelagh*. 981,000l. has been paid me. I shall explain how that sum has been issued. There are four armies in being; the English army in Holland, the Dutch and the English in England, and the army in Irelaud. I have nothing to do with the Dutch army, but all passed in my name, but was received by a Dutchman, paymaster to that army. An Account has been given to the committee; I cannot carry all the figures in my head, but when you require it, it shall be done. The king paid the Arrears of the Army that came over to him from king James; they were 22,230 men. They went from my care to Mr. Harbord: so that al! paid me is about 360,000l. I am near the matter, clearing the Dutch and English armies. When the king came over, there was no standing privy-seal, and so no legal acquittances. Though you gave much the last session, yet not for the forces in England; for those in Holland and Ireland only. Mr. Sacheverell. I hope Ranelagh will not take it ill if I ask him a question, or two. Whether an army of 40,000 men may not be maintained? If it can be made out, that there "One of the ablest men that Ireland has bred, capable of all affairs, even in the midst of a loose ruu of pleasure, aud much riot. He had the art of pleasing masters of very different tempers and interests so much, that he continued above thirty years in great posts." Burnet. never were 50,000 men, I would know, if there was not 1,400,000l. spent, and no army paid? Suppose 35,000 foot. at 21. a head pay, officers and soldiers, that is 700,000. Suppose there are 15,000 horse and dragoons, paid them in 50l. a man, and that is not above 1,500,000l. The year is gone about, and the Army not paid; I would know how that comes about? The Earl of Ranelagh. I hope, that, by virtue of my memory, you will not put me to give account of every foot of things. When, the last session, the Account was called for, the charge was 1,700,000l. per ann. Whether it was wrong cast up may be soon found out. Though we all know the Muster-rolls are not complete, nor the Army paid, yet all through my management, is paid the English and Holland. Sir Tho. Clarges. You are told, the Chargo was 50,000 men; that number, being never here, cannot come to 1,400,000l. In the time of Cromwell, and king Ch. 2. the establishment of a trooper's pay in Ireland was but 12d, a day, and the foot 8d. In Dublin it was more, because dear there. The grievance to me is this; the officers are not paid, and not clearing the Musters is a great damage to the king. Some reflections are made on what I said of the Revenue's being 1,900,000l. per ann. I told you that loss of Customs and defalcations were to be allowed. I will make it good upon my credit, that near that value is received. The Tax, &c. 800,000l. Sir Christ. Musgrave. I think this is a good Account that has been given, but I would have it brought into the house in writing. We have been upon a long debate, and are coming upon a dangerous question, upon a sudden motion in the house. I know not what times or necessities you are coming into, therefore I would be tender to engage in you know not what. If all things of this nature be brought hither, you will raise more Money than you will know how to pay. You have already voted credit, upon what you have given, for 300,000l. That may give some credit to the Ordnance, and your Bills depending may give more. Mr. Garroway. I think it is well moved not to voce on a sudden motion. Tis a dangerous precedent to make ourselves accountants. You are here to compute the War in gross; mine has no other end but to give Money for the necessary defence of the kingdom. Let them compute the charge for so many men; if they mis-spend it, let them answer it in God's name. I would enter upon Accounts no farther than to supply the present occasion. The deeper we entered upon Accounts, the deeper was always the charge. I have ever found it. Sir John Trevor I had rather lose my estate in Ireland, than have that Vote. What does the king stand for? And the several Offices brought hither, must we be the Officers of every Cominission? Sir Edw. Seymour. You have appointed Monday for enquiries; I have a List in my hand of particulars, most from trading mer chants. They may be in being, and the house | for your censure. Debate on the Charge against Captain Churchill for taking Money for Convoys.] Nov. 18. The Evidence of several Masters of Ships against capt. Churchill, for taking Money for Convoys, was heard at the Bar, viz. "That he would not stir without it; and as for those who would give no moncy, he took their men from aboard, and pressed them for his own ship." Capt. Churchill. "I find a Complaint against me, &c. I deny that I ever refused to convoy. At the first meeting, they agreed to make a purse. If I have given offence, I am extremely sorry for it, and shall do it no more. As for pressing the men, I took none but what I had extreme necessity for. If I took so many as is said, they could not have sailed with me. I am sorry I have given offence, and I will never do any thing to displease this house. Convoy money has been anciently practised. Mr. Papillon. I would have capt. Paris called in, who would not tell you the truth. If a witness be dealt with, and minces the matter, you will never have truth. Sir Robert Rich. I have heard the whole matter, and as for calling in the captain, you need not. Your member (Churchill) has owned the money. He has made a modest confession of his fault, and if you can prevent this for the future, I would deal moderately with this gentleman. Sir Wm. Williams. I cannot agree to pass this over without a question, nor would I deal severely with your member. The thing has been fully proved at the bar. Some call it ‘a free-will offering, or present.' I would come to this Resolution, That taking of Money for Convoys, by men of war, is a Grievance.' is 6 Sir Christ. Musgrave. I think your honour concerned, for capt. Paris has prevaricated with you, and you will lose your authority if you suffer it. Captain Paris was called in. Capt. Paris. "I have now recollected myself. I petitioned lord Torrington for a Convoy; who answered, If we would go to Torbay, he would take care of us.' Capt. Churchill came, in the Pendennis: I asked him, Whether he was ordered for our Convoy? He said, 'He was bound for the Channel, but if it would be made worth his while, he would convoy us." Capt. Hill. "Paris put the question to Churchill, who said, ' He had no order to convoy us.' Twenty-two sail of us subscribed 2017. which he had. If it was worth his while (he said) he would go to the Downs with us." Capt. Churchill. "The offers from capt. Hill came a week after, That if I would leave the Fleet, and convoy them, they would make the 2007. 400 guineas.' This, I hope, will, in some measure, justify me to the house, that I am not so very covetous." Capt. Churchill. I confess, I convoyed 22 Mr. Coningsby. This is a fault, and a great of 44, and if I had forced money from one, I one in Churchill, but I believe it an universal might have done it from others, and it was a one; but because others have not been so voluntary gift from them. I acknowledge I re-modest as your member, I would prevent it for ceived 150 guineas as a voluntary gift from the future. them; and I compelled no man. Mr. Papilion. This is a thing of great consequence. I would not have this captain discouraged, nor the merchants abused; if they will give a gratuity, 'tis not extorted, but voluntary. Capt. Churchill told them, If you will make it worth my while, I will go with you; of this there are three or four witnesses. If they had not made up this money, they must have lain by, ('twas a bargain,) their men were taken from them; if you do not something exemplary in this, you will rum both seamen and merchants. Sir Edw. Seymour. I do not at all approve that method to pass by your judgment upon those you have heard, and punish those you have not heard. You have heard the Examination, and an instance of your discipline and government of the Navy. I shall only say this, that this affair now coming before you, and influencing the whole matter of Trade, 1 do not wonder that it is not more plainly proved, but that it is so much proved. It is a hard thing to bring men before you with accusations of this kind, and if you leave them in a condition to be worried by those they accuse, you Admiral Russell. Nobody more desires that will never have more. These Miscarriages, criminals should be punished than myself. I arising from particular persons, endanger the know capt. Churchill to be zealous for the go-government. They can get no Convoy from vernment. The thing, as it is alleged, appears a heinous crime. If these Merchants will run presently, and make Subscriptions, indeed I do rot think capt. Churchill so much to blame. If he does not appear to be a great criminal, for his desert, and what he may do for the future, I hope you will inflict as moderate a punish-while' was; it was 2501. Till then they could ment as you can. Mr. Smith. I am sensible this gentleman has done you very good service, and is hearty for the government. This seems to be so clear us, and they apply to the Dutch. When a gentleman came that had the reputation of a Convoy, he was asked, If he came to convoy them? No, he had liberty to go where he pleased, but make it worth his while and he would go with them;' and you see what that get no sailing orders. He was directed for Convoy, but he would not till it was for his advantage. Some of the ships would not subscribe, and he took their men from them; and after they had sent their money, they were returned them again. Taking money for Convoys has been a practice, but never came into this house before; and if now you take no notice of it, you authorise and allow it. First take notice, of those that informed you, and prevent the man from worrying. That others have done it, is no rule for you; neither this gentleman's merits, nor any other's, are so great that you should lose your Trade for them. After all, this is before you: if you make not persons tremble, and, when proved, let it pass away, nobody, hereafter, will be afraid to do the same again. If you reprimand capt. Churchill only, you confirm the thing; but, whatever Resolution you will take to prevent it for the future, you shall have my vote. Col. Granville. I hope you will not punish a thing not declared a crime. I should have thought myself ill used if I had it not. I have never got by the sea so much as my pay. I move, That you will vote this illegal, and admonish the captain, in his place, that he will do so no more. 6 Sir Christ. Musgrave. I hear, from under the gallery, what I heard not before, That all Convoys have taken Money, and thought themselves ill used if not gratified.' Presents have been given to captains after they have convoyed ships; but this gentleman was sent down for a Convoy. He tells you, That is a mistake of making it worth his while;' but one of the captains tells you, They could not have a Convoy without Money, and then they should have sailing orders." I have not heard of such a thing; if this be the practice of the Fleet, you ought to remedy it. Taking money thus was ever a crime in this house; and why should this person, being a member of the house, fare better than those that are not? If you make a law for this, they will say there was no law before; persons will not come before you; they will be afraid. If you think this will give satisfaction to the nation-If not, I am for punishing. Col. Birch. You are now upon giving judgment that may be exemplary to the nation. I do desire, in all these cases, that something within may not give me the lye. I am for the severest punishment. About nine years ago, in the Long Parliament, (a time supposed none of the best) that horrible imprecation was made use of in the house, of God damn me!' (Sir Robert Cann) to bring people to that degree of prophaneness to bring in popery at last. The case was proved with us then, and with you now. There wanted nothing but to smooth over this horrid oath; but, instead of that, the house thought fit to give a stop to that growing mischief; they brought that member on his knees, and sent him to the Tower. After some time he petitioned, and was brought hither, and expelled the house. I wonder how this complaint came so clearly before; but put a stop to this business. I challenge any man to give an instance where Convoy-money was paid before-hand; but for Convoys to contract before-hand! These things being so plain, I would do by this gentleman so as I hope you may never have occasion to hear of it in this place any more. Mr. Garroway. I am sorry for this. I wish well to the nation, though I have but little time to enjoy it. You are pressed for a Vote of detestation of this crime; but first pass vote. I remember a person (Ashburnham,) for pressing the king about a Petition, about French wine, which he treated for a small sum 4007. he was turned out of the house. I wish I had never heard of this here, but, now it is a thing before you, in judgment; but, if because it was not a crime before, you pass no judgment upon it, I look upon all these poor men that complain, as crucified. I have said before, to some of them on the like occasions, You will be turned out of your offices for it.' I know not what to move you, but some exemplary thing you ought to do. Mr. Foley. This matter is of great moment. to do justice home. You have two witnesses, that, on the composition, they returned the pressed men back again. If you pass this by, it is to no purpose to talk of Miscarriages in the Navy. I am sorry this gentleman is a member; because of the justice of the house, you are the more concerned, and you can do no less than send him to the Tower. Sir Edw. Seymour. I am for proposing a question, seeing the Chair proposes none; viz. To declare that Money extorted from the Merchants for Convoy is illegal, and does obstruct Trade.' Next, Whether captain Churchill be guilty of extorting Money? And next, What punishment you will inflict on him?" Resolved, "That the requiring or receiving Money for Convoys is illegal, oppressive to Merchants, and destructive to Trade." Sir Wm. Williams. I cannot agree, as is moved, That Churchill only make submission.' It will require a great deal of Examination : if you will lay a severe punishment upon him, it will discourage him and many more. would adjourn the debate for a week. I Resolved, "That capt. Churchill is guilty of requiring and receiving Money for Convoys." Sir Wm. Leveson Gower. I will never make apologies for any man that has robbed by sea or land. I hope an ounce of misdemeanour will never weigh down a pound of merit. I would have him reprimanded only in his place. Sir Edw. Seymour. Here is a person has broken your laws, oppressed your trade, and you are now going to apply punishment. It is proposed to give him a reprimand in his place, and the consequence will be, he will do so no more; and if he does, he will not give an acquittance for the money. You cannot, in justice, punish any man, more, if you punish not It is said, He is a gentleman of great merit; but no man of the Fleet can come before you, but as much may be said for him. But who would not for 2007. but have a reprimand here, and go do the same thing this man. again? But you are to do something more, in consideration of your own justice, and the men that brought this before you. Will you leave these men to be worried by this man? Send him to the Tower, and declare him not capable to serve at sea again. Mr. Papillon. As to restitution of the Money, it must be a greater sum than this 2007. It must be all that has been taken. The Speaker gives an account of a precedent, in 1607, of a Scotch gentleman that gave some Account to the house, sir W. Seaton, who had a chair set for him *. Mr. Garroway. That was in respect to the Scotch nation, and king James, then newly come in. It is honour enough to come to your bar, to receive the thanks of the house, and I would do no more now, nor make any new precedent. Sir Christ. Musgrave. You were told by one, He was unwilling he should come upon his knees, and yet be sent to the Tower.' If sent to the Tower, he must be upon his knees at the bar. Lord Devonshire was sent to the Tower, and not upon his knees. Will that sound well, to be reprimanded only in his place? I would send this gentleman to the Tower, and order him to make restitution. Else you will not give satisfaction to the people in-nity; and sir Samuel Barnardiston, when he jured. Sir Tho. Lee. There is nothing so essential as the reputation of the house, that you will do right to all people, and see that none have wrong. The exercise of your power should be so used, as not always to exert itself to extremity. As for presents, every body takes them, but you are doing this for a precedent, and I hope it will be remedied for the future. There are great expectations what you will do in this. For length of time in the Tower makes the punishment. There have been precedents, in these cases, of bringing to the bar; but I am for the new precedent of lord Devonshire, to commit this gentleman to the Tower, and not bring him to the bar. Neither would I encourage complaint by over-doing this. This gentleman would rather, I believe, fight three battles with the French, than one with the house of commons. I move, That he may be sent to the Tower. Resolved, "That captain Churchill be committed to the Tower." Dr. Walker receives the Thanks of the Commons for his gallant Defence of Londonderry. Nov. 19. Dr. Walker came to the house to receive their Thanks for the service he did at Londonderry.t When he was lord Cavendish. See vol. iv. p. 761. Sir Tho. Lee. I am afraid some gentlemen make too light of form; the dignity of the house must be preserved. You sit covered in a committee of lords and commons, but not a conference. Sir John Grenville, when he brought a very welcome Message to the house from Charles 2. from Breda, delivered it at the bar, and it was not thought below his digdefended the cause of the original Causes in the lords house, had your thanks given him at the bar. You must have respect to the dignity of the house, else you will bring it to nothing. Dr. Walker, at the bar, standing. The Speaker. Dr. Walker, the house has received a Petition from the Widows and Orphans of those that were slain, and died in the siege of Londonderry, and has thought fit to recommend their Petition to the king, that he would please to give them 10,000l. for the ease of their present sufferings. They likewise take notice of the extraordinary service you have done to their majesties, and to England and Ireland, in the defence of Londonderry; and especially in that you undertook it when those who should have done their duty deserted it; and they have commanded me to give you the Thanks of the house, and they would have you give the Thanks of the house to all those that were in that service. Dr. Walker. "Those poor creatures, I am assured, will be very thankful for the honour you have done them. For the service we have done, we do not deserve the honour you have done us. We shall at all times be ready with our lives to maintain the Protestant Religion, and the Government."-And withdrew. Debate on a Petition from the Jews.] A Petition from the Jews was delivered by Mr. Paul Foley +. told him, That they were subjects of the king After col. Lundy, the governor, and the Council of War, had resolved to abandon the Sir Tho. Clarges. I remember a Protesplace, the townsmen chose this Mr. Walker, tant lady in France, who, being sick, and pes(who was rector of Donaghmore, and had tered by English priests, sent for one of our raised a regiment for the defence of the Pro- ministers, and he put them out. Our ambastestants) together with major Baker, joint-sador had audience of the French king, and governors; and, though the place was very ill fortified, and their cannon, which did not exceed twenty pieces, were wretchedly mounted, though they had no engineer to direct their operations, and had a very few horse, with a garrison unacquainted with military operations, and so destitute of provisions, that, at last, even the most loathsome food began to fail, they defended the town against all the efforts of a formidable army, commanded by king James in person, till it was relieved with troops and provisions, by gen. Kirk. Mr. Walker, on his coming to England, received from king William a reward of 5000l. and a promise of farther favour; but his military genius still prevailing, he attended his royal master to the battle of the Boyne, and there lost his life. * This had been voted him the day before. There is no mention of this Petition, or Debate, in the Journal. |