filled, and that is one remedy. For trade, there is little but what supplies your enemies to your disadvantage. For Religion, I think there is more than enough. But upon all accounts, that concern Religion, I think the Church of England too much discountenanced, who have supported you by their learned writings. I would do something to enlarge on Protestant bottoms; but I will postpone this consideration till a more convenient season. For Trade, whilst you are defending yourselves, the common enemy runs away with your Trade. For Grievances, as the Charters, &c. I am of the same opinion I was of the last session, for an Act of Indemnity from the king, to give him all the grace of it, to unite against the common enemy. Your enemies are either of France, or from France. The French king's Revenue is 116,000,000 of livres, and he has 200,000 men in pay; his kingdom well fortified; his arsenals well stored, and a great force by sea; they have met the English and Dutch Fleets in conjunction. It behoves the house to think how we shall deal with such a formidable enemy, to consider our allies, and to know how far Holland, in particular, will go to suppress this Navy of France. I remember the Pyrenean Treaty; what will it signify to give up Burgundy, and Luxembourg, &c.? I think we are not secure unless we destroy the French Navy. I move, therefore, to know how far Holland will join in suppressing the power of France.

Sir John Guise. One of the Dutch ambassadors told me, That the Dutch would pawn their shirts to go on with the war.' I am not for going back therefore. Certainly it is natural for you to consider from whence the ill government came, and to prevent it for the future; and, I hope, we may raise the English nation, and the reputation of it, again. If there be ill management, it must be from those in employment. Either they must manage no more, and you must apply to the king to take care of it, or take care of it yourselves, by yourselves, by the king's permission. My motion is, to consider and report what is the occasion of these Miscarriages, and calculate what are the Charges of your Land-Forces, and that you will employ people of your own, if you see occasion, to depend upon.

Debate on Abuses in Victualling the Fleet.] Sir Robert Napier gave the house an Account of a Letter he had received.*

Mr. Hampden, sen. This information is not impossible, in nature, to be true, but morally impossible. I cannot believe so much barba

*This Letter was from Plymouth, to one Rice, from his son there, giving an account of great abuses discovered in the victuals and beer provided for the Fleet lying there, and ready to go forth. And the said Rice, being called in to the bar, to own the said Letter, owned the receipt of it accordingly. Several members likewise attested the same, &c. See the Journal.

rism in men, so formally to undertake to destroy so many lives. Now, whether you will call in these men? Pray go on. Is this worth your curiosity? Would you have people abroad make sport with you, with a story of garbage? I doubt this will be censured. Pray go on; chuse your point what you will, and let this Letter be for the enquiry of a private Committee, and leave not the consideration of the Nation.

Sir W. Leveson Gower. I would examine these men that gave this information; if they abuse the house, punish them for example's sake, but hear them.

Sir Tho. Lee. It is for your service, very much, to have these men called in. If they have told you matter of fact, and do not make it appear-Such false reports as these may be studiously raised; if they prove true, those that were the authors ought to have the last punishment. But I take not the Committee of the whole house to have power to send for persons, papers, and records. I do not remember that a grand committee, without power from the house, has sent for persons, papers, and records, in all my observation. I would have the Speaker take the chair.

Mr. Foley. As yet this is but hear say, but a Committee may enquire into it. The Victual that went with the Ships was good, but that sent afterwards, though some laughed at it, was given to dogs, and they died immediately. I believe there is something in this, and it ought to be examined; and I desire you will do it.

Col. Granville. The Beer, on board the Ships, proved very ill, and, upon enquiry, it stunk confoundedly. Lord Torrington said, If it was what used to be beer, if it was boiled, it would come to itself again, and turn into beer;' and it was so, but still stunk, and seemed to be garbage put in the vessels.

Sir Peter Colleton. I hope you will do something in this matter. One ship came into Torbay, out of the Indies; as soon as they used this victual out of these ships, all their men fell sick. I am fully convinced that your men have been ill-used by the Victuallers, and, unless it be remedied, you will have no Fleet next year.

Mr. Papillon. The purser of the ship knows from what brewer, and what victualler, they send in the Victuals, and so you may find it.

Col. Granville. From whence good victuals came I cannot tell, for the Fleet had it from every place, and pray let them all answer for it.

Mr. Hampden. The question is for sending for all the Victuallers in custody, who are, sir John Parsons, sir Rd. Haddock, alderman Stuart, and Mr. Nicholas Fenn. It is not necessary for me to premise that I am no advocate for these Victuallers. I believe the Fleet is as ill, victualled as if our enemies had done it; there are several ships now ready to go out, some are fully victualled, and some not; they have received money for that service, and it

must be done immediately, and if not done by these hands that it is now in, your service must stand still. The new Victuallers cannot enter till they have account of the Stores that are left. There are orders that their Accounts be given up, and the keys and Stores delivered in; if you send for all these Victuallers in custody, all this service must now stand still.

Mr. Coningsby. You are told that lord Berkeley's squadron is ready to go for the East Indies; would you have them destroyed as the rest were? What better evidence would you have than what you have heard? I would send for them in custody.

Mr. Papillon. Not above a week ago I was sent for to the king to accept of this employment of Victualler of the Navy. I told the king, This affair had been neglected three months, and had been delayed so long that I durst not undertake it; therefore it was my humble request I might not be one of them. But the king said, He would not excuse me.' I can but say I can do no more than I can; but this will be taken for a great discouragement, to be brought into custody, before particularly charged; for men may put tricks upon

the Victuallers.

Col. Granville. The complaint is so general, and the seamen so cast down, that, if you value not these complaints, you may talk of raising money, but not of raising seamen. I would have them sent for in custody, to give account how they came by these ill victuals.

Sir Robert Rich. If I knew who put king James's Victuallers into office, I would send for them in custody also. Would any gentleman take arsenick of a brewer that would poison his family? Send for them in custody, and then enough will come in to inform you farther.

Sir Tho. Lee. I think it necessary to give you some account of this, because it is said, It is now too late to change the Victuallers, and that king James's officers do now victual the Fleet. The matter is this; they have stayed so long, that it is known how late in the year the matter of the Victualling was thought of, and how late we came into the employment; before new men could be put in, the summer-season would be lost, and there would be no Fleet; so that had you then changed bands, you had no time to spare, and the service fell thicker and thicker every day; and, if the Victuallers had been changed, the necessity was such there was no time to do it. I would have gentlemen think that such changes but as these are not to be made at all times, when the Fleet is pretty full of victuals. Except buying pipe-staves, nothing is to be done in August, and it was then the king knew that what was in stores must be made use of, or else all must stand still. If you send for these in custody, none will undertake it.

Col. Austen. I have heard it said, There is a necessity to take men into employment that are versed in business.' If these men are the only people that are to be employed, whither will you go next? Whatever you do with VOL. V.

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these men, who are so versed in business, I hope you will take honest men in their stead. Mr. Fox. I shall not be an advocate for these Victuallers. I am concerned only for one of them, sir Rd. Haddock. I will answer for his security; he will not run away. He gave Mr. Fenn 1700/. for that place.

Mr. Papillon. You have had sufficient se curity that these Victuallers will not run away. If any gentleman will engage that they shall appear to answer this Charge, I think that will answer your end.

Sir Edw. Seymour. On all accusations I shall be very tender in sending for men in custody. But as the nature of the question is, it is absolutely necessary to send for them in custody. The ill usage and abuse the seamen have had in their Victuals, has been represented to you. For your resentment of their ill usage you can do no less than send for them. I was in hopes, when Lee stood up, that he would have told you That there could not be such miscarriage in the Navy, and he, of the Admiralty, be ignorant of it, that should have prevented it.' But, I find, the Admiralty know as little of this as they know of the stations of the Convoys. Had they looked over the Journals of their office, they could not have been ignorant of this; but I fear the commissioners know no Journals, but of the house of commons, and what they sit there for,

Sir John Guise. I am against names in particular. I would rather send for them in gross. You cannot distinguish the Victuallers, whose provisions were amiss. I would at them all till they can clear themselves.

Sir Henry Capel. When I heard Parsons named one of the Victuallers, I was amazed; but, as for Haddock, he is an able seaman and a good protestant. He has an office in the Navy, but he was neither manager nor contractor, therefore put not him among the Brewers and Victuallers. I would be tender how we discourage a man that has commanded a squadron at sea.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. I shall say nothing to the debate, but to preserve orders. When it is a complicated question then by order, you may divide it. When there are so many names, then you are to put them one by one. the practice lately upon the Pains and Penalties. Will you lump such a question as this?

It was

Sir Wm. Williams. Will you put the question entirely, or upon the several persons? When the persons are distinguished in the debate, then the question is upon every single person. This charge I took to be a jointcharge, a breach of public trust; it arises not from an information at the bar, but the knowledge of your members. This is not to punish nor convict them, but to bring them to farther Examination, whether this was wilfully done, or by accident.

Sir Henry Johnson. I believe the Navy will stand still without sir Rd. Haddock, he is a man so conversant in the affairs of the Navy. You have been offered security for his appear

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ance.

He was against the Dispensing Power, | and was turned out by king James.

Divers gentlemen offered Security for him, and affirmed the same.

Sir Edw. Seymour. You are on the question of sending for Haddock in custody. If any one of these comes before you with a title to recommend him to your favour, it is Haddock; yet I am for sending for him in custody. You are not now enquiring into men's merit, but into fact. He is Comptroller of the Navy, as well as Commissioner and Victualler, and can give you the best Account. But I observe, it is unusual for these offices to be in one person. I would send for him in custody.

Col. Austen. I cannot but believe him to be a person as worthy as he is named to be; if you cannot distinguish him here, you must send for him in custody.

Mr. Hawles. If you cannot distinguish him in guilt, I would distinguish him in punishment. I find no evidence against him; but a very ill thing has been done; here are ill things done, who did it? We do not know. No person that did ill in the other government can be fit to be in this. Ill things have been fully proved against Parsons, and it was ill done, after notice of this, to keep him still in employment. I move to have Haddock sent for in custody, for you cannot distinguish.

Sir Win. Leveson Gower. Perhaps sending for him in custody may be a favour, when you discharge him without his fees, and perhaps with marks of honour too.

Mr. Cha. Montagu. I have a fair opinion of Haddock, but I think it injustice not to send for him. You send for him as a Victualler of the Navy, but not as a criminal. I offer what I wish may be done; that, though your Vote be to send for him in custody, he may be sent

for till farther order.

Mr. Boscawen. I would do what in prudence may be done; instead of sending for him in custody, to summon him to appear.

Sir Tho. Littleton, I believe the great character of this man is deserved. I think, equality of justice is more in your consideration than any thing else. All the Victuallers are jointly accused, and he not in particular.

Mr. Hampden, jun. If you summon Haddock, it will be more for your service, and you will have him before you.

Resolved, "That sir John Parsons, sir Rd. Haddock, alderman Sturt, and Mr. Nicholas Fenu, Victuallers of the Navy, be sent for in custody of the serjeant."

Debate on Mr. Waller's Account of the State of the Army in Ireland.] Nov. 26. Mr. Waller, who came lately from Ireland, gave an Account, at the bar, of the State of the Army in Ireland, and the condition of Affairs there; and then withdrew.

defeated, and the general taken prisoner; they were in so great fear, they all ran away, with few men of ours pursuing. He was in hopes we might march to Dublin to possess it. At Chester they left all their baggage-horses; the general wondered they came not; from which a great part of the misfortune came. When he came back to Chester, he asked, 'Why the horses staid so late?' They told him, 'It was for the best profit persons could make to put them to grass.' As for the sickness, it was wholly amongst the English foot. One regi ment lay amongst the Dutch in their huts; their officers looked upon their soldiers as their children, and would see them make their huts, pave them, and lay fresh straw; in the whole Dutch camp scarce two died.' By what I apprehend from the discourse of this gentleman, we lost so many men from the negligence of the officers. There was great defect of clothes; all that were well cloathed were in health.

Col. Birch. I find this person has taken exact notice of things, and, I believe, can give you a farther account. I would know, at what set time the Soldiers are paid, whether weekly or monthly; whether paid upon muster, or how?

Mr. Garroway. I desire you would ask, when they were mustered? When they were paid? What money, and at what rates?

Sir Thomas Clarges. This gentleman was a volunteer; he had no pay. He says, ' A piece of eight of 4s. 4d. was paid them at 4s. 9d. Guineas here at 1/. 1s. 6d. there at 17. 3s.''

Mr. Hampden. It was thought the best way for the king to take up the money current there, dollars; and it was ordered to go at the current price of Ireland. Perhaps some of that money did not go so high as it might do ; what was over went to the king's profit.

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Sir Christ. Musgrave. This gentleman gave you an account That he was at Chester, when the duke of Schomberg went over into Ireland.' I would ask him this question, Of what number every regiment did consist, horse, foot, and dragoons, when mustered at Chester; and when they arrived in Ireland, what number they were there? I would know what service the ships at High-lake were designed fur, whether artillery, or baggage-horses? And why they were not shipped with the Army, how they came, and how long after?

Mr. Waller, being called in, said,—“ The foot were paid every day; the horse once a month, with deduction for cloaths. Since the sickness, they muster often, once a fortnight. They are are paid in pieces of eight at 4s. 9d. guineas at 11. Ss. They found no provision of straw and corn where they were, but, in their winter-quarters, straw and oats, but no hay the last three weeks the horses were at grass and oats in the field; the horse were at grass the 10th of Nov. For surgeons medicines, I have heard they were very ill provided. I saw none of them, and I have heard they had little, or none. It was reported they had 1700l. worth of medicines, but I know not where they were,

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