and now all this must be put upon the house of commons, and we may sit here till Midsummer, at this rate. I would address the king, &c. Mr. Smith. In plain English, knaves and villains are employed, and those who would not give their consent to take away the penal laws and Test could not get into their places, and others that did are got in. I would desire the king (in our Address) to tell us, who were the occasion of putting these men in. As long as you have the same councils, you will have the same things done.

Sir Henry Capel. I cannot tell how these comptrollers were sent into Ireland; but, I believe, since Shales came away, both those in king James's and Charles's time in employment are removed.

Sir John Thompson. One thing gives me comfort, that you have it manifest before you, that there is treachery. The generosity of king Ch. 2. who spent so much money, was the security of the nation; but in time of war the nation cannot bear it. I am against the motion for an Address to the king, &c. You are told of Councils, but you forget the primum mobile. You have been told it came from higher powers. You made an address for a lady of quality to be sent into France-(duchess of Mazarine.) Is she gone yet? I know not the reason. The king must know the sense of the house, let counsellors say what they please. I would address the king to know who advised him to employ this person, Shales.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. You are not ripe for a question; you have not matter enough to ground such an Address. I think, before you proceed to that, you should know to whom Shales is accountable. If these Miscarriages are of so great a date as August last, you must know why this was never examined nor punished. It must rest upon these persons whom the king has intrusted. If this house examine all Miscarriages, you must be a perpetual parliament. I know, Shales's employment is Commissary of the Stores; certainly some persons are superintendants. When you know that, I think the committee will ask some questions; till then, I would not address the king.

Mr. Garroway. I question whether our pressures will admit those ceremonies in gradations. Certainly there are great Miscarriages. Perhaps he was recommended by such a man, as those who should call this to account dare not. I never heard Shales named for good in my life. I have heard that he has sent over his proper goods in those ships that should have transported the horse. I know not how you will examine him, unless you will send for him over. I think it no injustice to take such a man out of employment, so ill a man.

Sir Rob. Howard. I have great hopes that we shall make use of this debate, since no man has forborne to give his thoughts, if hopes do you any service. Here have been great Miscarriages. I never heard a man speak well of Shales, nor do I believe I ever shall. very gracious with king James, and I am sorry

He was

You may

he is employed by king William. kill two birds with one stone; and, to do something very plain, I would have an Address to the king to have persons sent into Ireland to take account of the numbers of the Army, and the Provisions. I am plainly for members of this house to go, who know their duty to the nation; that Shales may be secured there; and the duke of Schomberg will inform them of all things, and Shales's books may be examined, that you may know the number of the Army: You will then have a just Account of it, and I move for an Address of this nature.

Col. Birch. I am pretty well encouraged this day. If ever you have the war carried on with honour and success, you must hang this man. As for displacing him, that is a minute thing with me. If he be a commissary, it is a great employment, and it is in his power to do all this. The space betwixt the regiments arrival in Ireland was six months. But I would fain have the life of the business looked into. Whoever put this man into this trust are friends to king James, and not to king William. I would address the king to see his commission, and by whom this gentleman was commissioned for this service. Tis by the same hands that you have had all this ill success. Find the source, and I doubt not but the king will tell you.

Sir Henry Goodrick. You have had informations, of several sorts, that the duke of Schomberg is extremely unsatisfied with some about him. If the duke thought the Army could be supplied by breaking this man, before the Army came into winter quarters, he would have done it. His title is Commissary General of all the Provisions.' If this be fit to be stirred in before the Army were in winter quarters (I intend to look farther,) the duke will do as a loyal and wise man; but since the matter was unsafe to be stirred in before now, I hope. it will not reflect on the duke. I agree to an Address, as moved; and, That Shales having been employed, those who recommended him have been rather friends to king James than to king William.'

Sir Rob. Howard. You are moved to know of the king, who advised him to employ Shales; but take heed of doing one thing that may do a great deal of mischief, if you delay here, and let him go over to king James. Talk not of who advised this, and send him to his old friend king James.

Mr. Smith. If we had not questioned Shales here, he may stay another campaign in Ireland. I would know a reason, why on suspicion he was not clapped up first. We must attribute all the Miscarriages and misfortunes to the Committee for the Affairs of Ireland. I would have this man taken into custody, and have some other committee for Ireland.

Mr. Garroway. You were told, 'That he was suspected to go over to king James, when he went into Ireland first.' Do you think he can be safe there? He has done a great deal already. He knows all the secrets of the Army;

a hundred things that no man can foresee; as where a garrison is that wants victuals, &c. I would not have a perplexed question, but still I insist on knowing him that first advised he should be employed, and I would address the king that the duke take him into custody.

Col. Birch. I am for hastening the question, and making it effectual immediately. I would wait on the king, and that will do it.

Mr. Garroway. I would leave it to the duke to put in another person. If he be recommended from hence, I look for as bad a man as he. The king knows nobody fit. We are the Great Council of the kingdom, and I think it is no intrenchment on the king's prerogative, why the king may not take the Advice of this house, as well as of the private

ministers.

Sir Henry Capel. I agree that this is the Great Council, and are the best counsellors. It is a great honor to duke Schomberg, and for the good of that kingdom, to address the king to order him to present a person for this place. If you address that the duke name a person, I appeal, whether the duke will do it without the king?

Sir Wm. Williams. If the duke nominate a person, it will take up more time than the king can spare. It must be done presently.

Sir Henry Goodrick. The general is a check upon the commissary; he must be responsible for his commissary; that is, that you will not put upon him.

The Earl of Ranelagh. I spoke yesterday with col. Lumley, who says, that Shales is in Ireland, and two men were sent comptrollers, able and honest men, Robinson and Fielding.' Mr. Hampden. Fielding is in Scotland, and Robinson in Ireland, but not suffered by Shales

to act.

Mr. Garroway. I think your Vote will not have perfect effect, unless you address the king to remove the advisers of putting Shales into employment.

2.

Resolved, by the Committee, 1. "That the house be moved, That an humble Address be made to his majesty, That Mr. John Shales, Commissary-General of the Provisions, be forthwith taken into custody; and all his Accounts, Papers, and Stores secured: and that a fit person, or persons, be put into his place: and that his majesty will be pleased to impower duke Schomberg to do the same. That an humble Address be presented to his majesty, That his majesty will be pleased to let this house know, who recommended Com missary Shales to his majesty, and advised his being employed."-To the first of these Resolves the house agreed, nem, con. but, on the second a debate arising, the question for adjourning was carried in the affirmative, 89

to 80.

Nov. 27. The debate on commissary Shales was resumed.

Sir Tho. Littleton. I was, last night, for adjourning the debate. Then you had two ways proposed, either to acquaint the king,

but that was not thought proper, and in hopes that the debate might be resumed, that another motion might not be so harsh as this motion of an Address to the king; and first to vote, That those persons were enemies to their king and country who advised him to employ Shales, and that he would remove them from his person and councils for ever.' I do not remember that the thing was ever done before. The king will be unwilling to deny you, but you put a great hardship upon him. I would rather mark such men out, and, I believe, the consequence will be, somebody will be removed from the king's councils. Suppose the king forbear any Answer at all, it would look like distrust. What effect can you have? The king will remove him, but he may also be prosecuted. The king can be no witness in law. If the consequence of your Address be, that somebody will be removed, many will be glad of that consequence.

Sir Wm. L. Gower. I am for going none of these ways: I think we are out of the way. I think what we are about is as much as to say, the king shall be an informer to this house. He that knew that Shales bought his place, can tell you more (lord Castleton.) I would have him asked.

Lord Castleton. It was a vulgar report that Shales bought his place. I said, 'I believed Shales was no friend to king James, nor king William, but to himself.'

Mr. Hawles. I am for the Address. We must make use of extraordinary means. If, by a precedent, we must find out unprecedented things, we shall never do it. If king James was to come in again, he could not make a better choice of some persons in employment. The king is a stranger to us. Councils have recommended persons who did it. It must be in the dark, and this is the best way to discover him and other persons. The first employment was in the West-business, and no man fitter to be employed to betray us-That man who recommended him is not fit to be in employment.

We

Col. Austen. I am as unwilling to propose any indecency to the king, as any man. have a wolf by the ears in this; we know not how to let him go. You only desire to know of the king who brought Shales thither, and humbly beg the question.

Sir Rob. Cotton. If the king nominates who recommended Shales to him, you have ground to proceed. Though the king be a stranger to the nation, he is not to point of honour. You cannot do it decently. But the king may remove him from his council, and that will be sufficient.

Mr. Solicitor Somers. We do nothing if we find out the men only, and not who put them into employment:' This is said, but to arrive at your end it may be answered, If a question be asked a private gentleman, 'Who gave you that advice?' It is not proper for him to answer. But if he advises him to trust that man no more, he shows his respect

by it. If you make an unanimous Vote to desire the king not to trust that man, it will have great weight in it with the king. This is a kind of last remedy; a thing never put upon the king before, and a hardship! Do not you give great advantages to those about the king to tell him, That the commons go beyond the bounds of his dignity, and give occasion to protect those persons? Admit the king should grant it, you must tell the king those are his enemies. Your ends may be answered by an Address, That the persons who gave this Advice may be removed.'

Sir Joseph Tredenham. We are told by every body that the king and we are upon one bottom; if so, there is no necessity to go upon this extraordinary course, but upon what we may, with confidence, assure ourselves of success in. I wish our condition were better, but is there no way to arrive at our end but by unbeaten paths, which our ancestors never found their end in? What effect can you propose to yourselves in this, by the king's Answer? Nobody can think there is a ground of an Impeachment, or Bill of Attainder. If he is guilty of other errors than this, you may reach him without this Address. I see no convenience, but many disadvantages, by it.

Sir John Lowther. I am one of those that agree with the committee; but to hang Shales, and to have all those punished that recommended him to the king, some men think a hardship put upon the king, and some not. I have delivered my opinion, to avoid the appearance of such a rock as hardship, by all possible means to prevent the least appearance of a misunderstanding with the king. Possibly the king may be mistaken in men and recommendations. Surely, the second time, he will be cautious what he does against the opinion of his Great Council, and better avoid this rock.

ther Shales has a Commission under the great or privy seal, or by a bare Letter from the king. This may lead us to the knowledge of it, and those about the king may put us into some way to screen this off from the king. We are upon this point singly, either to put a hardship upon the king, or betray the trust of the whole kingdom. If there be other propositions, I must join for the question.

Sir Tho. Littleton. Put the previous question first; if it be carried, the house will be unanimous in the main question afterwards, for the reputation of the house.

Sir Tho. Mompesson. It is not usual to put a previous question for agreeing with the committee, upon an adjourned debate.

Mr. Coningsby. At the Committee of Religion in king James's parliament, a report was made of an Address, and, upon an adjourned debate, the previous question was put, Whether the words Protestant Religion' should stand, &c.' and passed in the negative. Judge the consequence.

Sir Tho. Lee. It is a great mistake, that the previous question, if asked, must necessarily be put, neither at the time of the report, for you may do it all at one time, and not at another. There may be reason not to put it now, and yet it may come to it hereafter. This matter is now under the king's examination; let him have the honour of it: he expects letters out of Ireland,

Sir Wm. Williams. It is a monstrous thing to be upon your Books in king James's parliament, Whether the words Protestant Religion' should stand in the Address.' You are now upon a single head, Whether this is proper for an Address now? Therefore, I think, you should put the previous question.

The previous question for agreeing with the Committee was carried 188 to 142; and the main question then passed, 195 to 146.

by the privy-counsellors; but those about the king may make ill reflections upon what we do. If you had taken more care in other Messages, we might have fared better in the Answers, (the care of Religion, the Laws, and the Government,) by those about him.

Mr. Palmes. I presume, adjourning the debate was intended for gentlemen to recollect some other way, and I hoped some gentlemen would have it to lead you off from this called hardship on the king. I would know whe

Mr. Hampden. Something to the last business.-As I understand, something was said against privy-counsellors presenting this Address to the king, that they had represented things so hardly to the king.' I would have Gwynn explain. I appeal to the king how we have misrepresented things.

Sir Tho. Mompesson. What he said was not with reflection upon privy-counsellors, but upon what was said here.

Mr. Howe. As near as I can recollect the words, they were, 'That the privy-counsellors had spoken hardly of the Address here, and he had reason to believe they would do so to the king.'

Sir John Lowther. I would not misrepresent

former Act of Indemnity, were discharged. I desire you will do so now.

Sir Henry Capel. I will put that gentleman at ease presently. There shall be no misrepresentation from me. Witnesses do know the rule they go by. Whoever is of the parliament, and near the person of the king, represent with all tenderness, and put the best face of things from hence to the king. I hope this will be the rule of every man, and shall be mine whilst I live.

Col. Austen. Heat never does business well, Let a man's sense be what it will, he ought to deliver it as the sense of the house, and not his Go unanimously to the king, and let

own.

this debate fall.

Sir Francis Blake. A privy-counsellor told us, That what the king said in his closet, was sent to king James in brandy-bottles.' You ought to examine those who manage affairs, and are near business. I name Mr. Blaithwayte.

This debate went off, and a Committee was appointed to prepare the Address.

Major Wildman acquainted the house, That his majesty, having been attended with their Address for securing Commissary Shales, and his Accounts and Papers, was pleased to give this answer: "That he had some time since taken order therein, being informed of the said capt.Shales's Misdemeanors in his employment; and bad written to duke Schomberg for that purpose:" And that his majesty was pleased farther to add, "That be verily believed, what was desired was already effectually done; though, the wind being contrary, he had not, as yet, received any account thereof from Ireland."

Nov. 28. Capt. Churchill, in a Petition, acknowledged his Offence; and prayed to be restored to the favour of the house, and to be enlarged from the Tower, which was granted.

Debate on a Clause in the Bill of Indemnity.] Nov. 29. Sir Tho. Clarges. I ask your pardon if I speak against the liberty of the subject. I have contributed to this Revolution, and have suffered for it. I sent my son to the prince of Orange, at Exeter, at great expence. Those who sue for horses and arms taken from them, have done nothing but according to law. I discommend much their malice; but, upon pretence of service to the prince of Orange, some have plundered very honest men. To have their names brought hither that have prosecuted, will increase animosities, and may do hurt. Fortify yourselves as well as you can, but name no persons. But actions, in the

Act of Indemnity, whilst this is depending, for men to bring actions, &c. I fear there are some ill spirits that countenance one another to do mischief. Since such a motion is made, I would not let it fall flat. I remember not such impatience nor complaint formerly, when Ch. 2. was restored; why should they not have the same respect to this parliament, as to others? We shall have them dispute the Militia, and dispute the Tax, and have the frame of government torn in pieces. We have enemies abroad and at home, and I hope you will put the question.

Sir Tho. Lee. I am sorry, and suspect myself, when I differ from a friend. The rights of the people, and the guardianship of the Indemnity is in king, lords, and commons; not in this house alone. When men see actions at law fruitless, they will not spend their money. Direct a Bill to be brought in, and that is better than a Vote. The rights of parliament are enough. Pray let us take no more jurisdiction upon us than our ancestors.

Mr. Howe. It seems strange to me, that those who have broken all your laws, and subverted religion in the Ecclesiastical Commission, should be on an equal foot. What has this king taken but from enemies? If they be pardoned here for what they have done, I believe they will not be pardoned in another world. The law and the sword grew luxurious in the West, and I heard not of any body in king James's government that stood up for an Act of Oblivion; and now to be placed amongst those men,-I know not what to trust to. Let us rather try it again.

Mr. Hampden. I am against the question. Suppose you had one of these men at the bar, and you ask him, Why he brought this action? It may be a robbery. These inconveniences will happen in Revolutions; there fore I am not for a question.

Sir Edw. Seymour. I shall give you but short trouble. The merits of the question have debated it out of doors. The debate came on irregularly, and slipped itself in. Put the question, Whether the house shall proceed to the order of the day?'

Ordered, "That a Bill be brought in to indemnify all such persons from private Actions, that have acted in order to the bringing in their present majesties; or for their service, or the safety of the government."

Address against Commissary Shales.] Mr. Dolben reported the Address to his majesty against Commissary Shales, viz.:

"We your majesty's most dutiful subjects, the commons, in parliament assembled, being filled with the deepest and most sincere affec

tion to your majesty's royal person, and out of the most tender regard to your majesty's and your people's safety, and the honour of your government, do most humbly represent to your majesty the extreme danger we conceive the nation and your majesty's affairs to be in, by the employment of persons in the greatest trust, who are so far from being faithful to your majesty's and your people's interest, that they have corruptly and treacherously endeavoured the destruction of both: especially Mr. John Shales, who was made Commissary-General of the Provisions for your majesty's Army in Ireland, notwithstanding he was notoriously known to be popishly affected, and to have served the late king James as his commissary. The mischiefs which have happened by the employment of this man are very great; and of such a nature, as, without God's infinite mercy to your majesty and this nation, might intirely have defeated their majesties good intentions, and the effect of the Resolutions of this house, in order to the reducing of Ireland to its due obedience to your majesty. In particular, when that experienced general duke Schomberg went, by your majesty's command, into Ireland; he left strict orders for the speedy transporting the Ordnance and Horse, designed for the service of that kingdom: and it pleased God to bless his first attempts to that degree, that, if the said orders had been executed, your majesty's Affairs in Ireland bad been in a much better posture than now they are. But the said Commissary Shales, partly to satisfy his own covetousness, and partly out of disaffection to your majesty's service, did delay the execution of the said Orders for several weeks; by reason whereof your majesty's Forces were not only disabled for pursuing the advantages they had gained upon the enemy, but were also necessitated to encamp at Dundalk; which occasioned the loss of some thousands of your majesty's subjects. Wherefore we, &c. do most humbly desire, that your majesty would be graciously pleased to let this house know, who recommended Commissary Shales to your majesty, and advised his being employed; to the end that we may be the better enabled to offer to your majesty such humble advice, as may tend to the preservation of your majesty's royal person and government." Debate thereon.] Mr. Howe. I doubt you cannot make this a good Address, or ever have good effect of it. If it must go, there is a word in it I would have good English; viz. by the Employment of Mr. Shales.' I would have it, 'Employ of Mr. Shales.'

Mr. Hampden, jun. I think myself obliged to speak something, being of the committee. I had rather not have been of the committee, and not have had a hand in drawing it. Nothing should have drawn consent from me to this Address, but the safety of the king. Some had scruples of conscience about going to the prince of Orange, but they were answered, when the danger was over. Nations were not made for kings, but kings for nations; and na

tions not by kings, but kings by nations. I take it to be for the king's interest to put you in mind of these things, as well as the nation's. In the late reigns we had good paper laws, if good men had been put in to execute them, against Popery, and for the preservation of property: yet the Judges declared, That the laws were the king's laws, and the king judge of the necessity of the government.' This will make the king as absolute as the Eastern princes. In your address you desire, That duke Schomberg should name a person fit for Shales's Employment.' He was thought to have skill in military affairs, and yet complained, That he could not put in a cornet.' If there be such men about the king, it is not safe, and to no end to give Money. I would remove them.

Sir John Guise. It is parliamentary to have the Address read, paragraph by paragraph. You have been told, That Shales is not the only man you are to remove, but in all places and offices.' Possibly, instead of making this singular, there is not only Shales, but all other people to be removed as well as Shales. It is what you must do one time or other. If there is any man here that does not wish for this, I shall tell him he is an enemy to the kingdom.

Mr. Comptroller Wharton. I was not for this Address. I think, a good use may be made of what Guise has said. I wish this Address was laid aside; it is too narrow only for an inconsiderable fellow, a creeping worm. could wish all were laid aside that can be found out. If the Address be laid aside, or recommitted, you may have fruit of it.

I

Mr. Howe. I am never moved by fears, or hopes, to do contrary to the interest of my country. I thought there would be no good effect of this Address, therefore I was against it. These persons are near enough to the king to know, that this Shales is contrary to the interest of the nation to be employed any more. Many near the king thought it not for his interest to employ him. I wonder not that all honest men are not employed; they must have their tongues oiled and knees greased. I would find out great men that have been the occasion; name them, one by one, and I shall give my Vote as willingly as any body to remove them. [It was cried out, " Name them," If I do, you will all vote for them, as you did last time. I would recommend some marks for the king to avoid and chuse by, and leave this Address.

Col. Birch. I thought this Address was a plaister too narrow for the sore, but I submit always. Now, pray make the best of what is before you. It is thought this of Shales is too little a thing to lay so great a weight upon.' The Address tells you, before you name the man, of great inconvenience, and that we have had mischief from persons not fit to be put into employment.' I think it absolutely necessary, that all means be used to continue a good correspondence betwixt the king and his people. I confess, from the experience I have had, nothing is more mischievous than