ra

is reported, you will know how they stand, from those of the Treasury, who give you account; I hope that will be satisfactory. I remember, in the Civil War, when the party of Ch. 1. were near overcoming the Parliament Party, they presently fell upon a new model of the Army and Affairs; the precedent may be made use of now; there is scarce a day but we hear of misfortunes. You have been told, That king James's false dice are still played with, and go about.' This access of Foreigners in the Army is another great discouragement; their way of fighting is from hedge to hedge, and from hill to hill: the English have another way; and king James, enquiring of gen. Morgan, why the Irish were so good soldiers abroad, and so ill at home? he replied, His majesty was mistaken, for when they have English to deal with, they charge close, and then fall in with butt-end of musket.' What infelicity we are under I cannot tell; what advice the king has I cannot imagine; but we may do our own work by our own countrymen. I moved, 'That 400,000l. might be applied to Ireland;' and that, I can tionally make appear, might have reduced the West of Ireland in three months: but that is passed now. The Fleet lay six weeks in the bay of Kinsale, and we might have had Cork for asking for. One Townshend, captain of a ship of 20 guns, was blown, by weather, into Castle-haven, and sent a boat ashore to enquire after bis Protestant relations; they told him, They were prisoners in the castle up they went, and after a shot or two, the Irish thinking more followed, they took the Castle, and redcemed their friends: if 15 musketeers have done this, what might 500 men? But, I am told, the commanders had positive instructions not to set a man ashore. Here is 400,000l. a month, and no method was taken as in other councils. I know not whether it is by weakness of council. Formerly there were 100 in a company, now but 50: the use of this was, that men might be drawn out disciplined immediately for service, and this would put life into your business. As to this of Foreigners, I know not what security we have in them; but I am sure this king came in by the Church of England, their pens, sermons, and sufferings. When all things are to be feared, men will fear nothing. Some gentlemen, out of scruple of conscience, have not taken the Oaths; they acquiesce under it, without murmur against the laws. There is another sort of men that live under a constant breach of the law. By law no man can be in office, who takes not the Test and Oaths: it will be no answer to say, the chancellor and lord chief justice did not come to my house to tender me the Oaths.' I would have all former differences forgotten. The Dissenters are against monarchy, but it is the government that those men would have all in their hands. Having given my opinion of the general State of the Nation, I desire, That we may make a Representation of it to the king,'

6

Sir John Guise. I suppose this gentleman was not upon the spot when the change was, but, I assure you, the Church of England ran away from us, and the Dissenters stayed. I hear the word Monarchy' named; I would know who is against monarchy? I would not have these distinctions among us; but pray go on to the State of the Nation. Sir Wm. L. Gower. If I do not mistake, I hear a project to reduce Ireland with 400,000!. If that can be, I would give him 100,000. for his share. I think, if the nation be in ill condition, you would do well to make a Representation of it, to inform the king as well as ourselves. Your way is to look back to the Prince of Orange's coming to the administration of the government, to see what Money was then in the Exchequer, and what in the Stores: I would not skin the sore, but search it to the bottom. If you have a plain charge and discharge, that will satisfy you.

Mr. Howe. I think, the worst State of the Nation is, to throw the Fanatic and Papist at one another's heads. The Church of England have so well vindicated themselves from Popery, that I hope we shall show ourselves not the men we are represented, to ruin the Church, and ruin Monarchy. I know not what Religion does here; that is for the pulpit. Secure the government from king James's coming in, with Popery at his heels, and the French king riding on his back and as for those who have been employed, faults are easily made and easily found, but rarely remedied. I would conceal our faults from our enemies, and mend them as soon as we can, and regulate where Money has been misapplied.

Sir Tho. Clarges. I desire to explain myself. Morally speaking, with 400,000l. Ireland might have been put into your hands in 3 months. I have no place of profit, and desire none, but I can make good what I say. I hope, when we have fears, we may have liberty to make discovery of them. When we have a sort of men against Monarchy-[He was called upon to name them.] I hope, all are free here, and all of the Church of England; there are a sort of people against the Penal Laws, and the Test, and, I am afraid, that now they will not take the Oaths, they have a loose foot to comply with some change.

Sir Henry Capel. I speak to Clarges's dis tinguishing persons. I have a feeling about me-[They laughed] I mean, my family. Distinction in the Civil War, how ended it? Fatally. Though they could not bring in Popery, in Ch. 1's time, they brought it to pass, in a good measure, in his son's. The Long Parliament had a good natural disposition to do good for the country, and then we were told, It was coming to be like 1641.' Pray let us have no distinctions.

Sir Tho. Clarges. That gentleman and I sat near 18 years in that parliament; and he, I hope, will bear me witness that I was then against Popery. I say, in king James's parliament, who closed against the Test, and who

closed for Liberty? I fear, there is some secret reason for it, and in it.

Sir Rob. Howard. There has been speaking, on all sides, of this, and that. I speak plainly, and will show plainly where this will end, and how unfortunate-When this began on either side Not those that would take away the Penal Laws nor the charters, let their opinion be what it will on either side, and some in this house may yet be called upon. It is spoken of Dissenters who complied with king James,' and Whig and Tory revived-And then can we say, That any man is for the Government who was for the Regency? [He was interrupted, but went on] I only said, that those things would prove fatal, and, in the end, destruction. I am for understanding every thing; and what you did from the hour the prince of Orange came, to see that all has been received to this day, and disbursed, so exactly, shortly, and visibly; and this shall be done so just, that he is not worthy of the place he is in that opposes it. It is fit that you have it from the first day of Michaelmas, and so on.

Mr. Smith. I am not of Clarges's opinion, 'That we have none to fear but Sectaries, and Common-wealth's men. I think, there are Church of England-men, and destroyers of the Church, who complied with king James, because they could have no Toleration under other reigns. I hope, the king will have such information of this day's debate, that we shall have no more Foreigners; and I hope the English shall be paid, that the officers may not pick the soldiers pockets to subsist themselves; and, I fear, that is the occasion of false mus

ters.

Sir John Lowther. Parties have had their faults on all sides; I hope we shall have no more distinctions for the future. If we consider the State of France, it is not so formidable as represented. Powder is now 107. the barrel, which, before the war, was but 20s. The French king has melted his finest plate, which cost three times its worth in the fashion he is in distress for naval stores from the north; and all the northern ports of the world are shut upon him: if you are masters of the Channel, and supported by the Confederates, he will soon fall. King James has neither money nor men but from him. I hear it said, 'We have made soldiers of the Irish:' but the little Fort of Newry drove away 1800 Irish, and it never was attacked again. Consider now, whether any thing is requisite in such a nation as this, but unanimity. When the Account is brought into order, you will know your state, what is past, and for the future. When you have found all out, I hope you will not leave a man criminal unpunished in the government. If you find any man who lies lurking for a change, or is unfit to be employed in the government, remove him.

they are not all in one hand, but you may deduce it to every man. Things may be obscure; though gentlemen understand Accounts, as the way of the Treasury, a man may be puzzled in a merchant's book. There is an Abstract ready of the Accounts, when you desire it.

Mr. Garroway. I am very glad of this dehate, to consider the State of the Nation.' I thought to have heard of foreign affairs, of Ireland, our Allies, and Scotland, and now all ends in Accounts. If you will do no more, let us consider in the house how to raise Money to conquer Ireland; but pray consider how we came into this ill condition, and how to get out of it. Consider Scotland: I have seen some papers why foreign Forces are there; and I have scen papers why the parliament of Scotland was put off: this confirms me what should defend us from France and Ireland. I am not against taking Accounts, as is moved; but, if you will, I will make you a motion; I will tune myself to give no offence. As for the Account of Ireland, I am sure it is a wild one. I would know when a muster was taken, and what Account was given to the king; and then consider what men have perished, and how the Muster-Rolls are filled up. It is said, there are but 7000 men in England;' I am so fond of the Church of England-men, that I would not spend one of them in a war. When you have fixed on a Head, I will do you the best service I can.

Mr. Hampden, jun. The business of parliament is not this of Accounts, where we can never come to the bottom. Two things a parliament can do; give Money, the great support, and persons to be employed next about it: I never saw a parliament do any thing else to purpose. I am afraid, if some of the persons continue, we shall not find people to lend money, nor know how to raise it. It is a man's own fault to suffer men to ruin him that have ruined him before. Look into your books, and you will find those now employed, voted 'enemies to the king and kingdom, and favourers of Popery.' If those parliaments were mistaken, it is strange! And hindering this king, who was come to deliver us, and bantering this king-That these three men who came to Hungerford from king James, should be the three greatest men in England, I leave the world to judge. When Portugal set up the duke of Braganza, and freed themselves from the Spaniard, did they employ the king of Spain's ministers? Did Henry the 4th of France make use of those of the League for his ministers? The Hollanders, when they were redeemed from Popery and slavery, did not employ the duke of Alva's ministers. If we must be ruined again, let it be by new men. I fear, the condition of the French king is not rightly represented to us; now he is providing

stores for his ships, if we take wrong measures, and are mistaken, it may be of fatal Consequence. The rebellion in Ireland might have been easily stopped at first. I am for the parliament doing what they can do to advise the king to take good men, and fresh men about him. I am not for naming any, but for such as have not ruined us already, and not Commissioners, who would persuade the prince of Orange to go out of England.*

"The member that spoke the loudest on this occasion was Mr. Hampden, jun. who, though his life had been in danger under the preceding reign, though both he and his father had much contributed to the late Revolution, and though both were in favour with the present king, yet made a long speech against those that had the management of affairs, by saying, he could not but wonder to see those very persons in the ministry whom the late king James had employed, even when his affairs were most desperate, to treat with the (then) prince of Orange. He alledged the example of William first prince of Orange, who never made use of the duke of Alva's ministers; of Hen. 4. of France, who never employed those of his competitor the duke of Mayenne, and of several other princes: and moved for an Address, to desire his majesty to remove the persons he had marked out, from his presence and councils. This speech might, perhaps, have made an impression on the minds of some members, but because at the same time he complained, that several Commonwealths-men were employed by the government, the house, who knew both him, his father, and their predecessors, to have ever adhered to the Republican party, broke out immediately into a general laughter. As soon as the commons had recovered their gravity, several members stood up in defence of the illustrious persons on whom Mr. Hampden had reflected, alledging, that the reason why they had been deputed to the prince of Orange was, not because they were in king James's interest, but rather, because they had all along disapproved his majesty's conduct, and as such, had the general approbation of the nation, and were most likely to be agreeable to his highness. The same day sir Thomas Clarges represented to the commons, that it was dangerous to bring so many foreign troops into the kingdom, and that it was both safer and more expeditious to employ Englishmen in the reduction of Ireland. He supported his opinion by the example of Cromwell, whose English troops not only had a natural antipathy against the Irish, but likewise a constant ascendant over them; but somebody very justly replied, That Cromwell's army was composed of well-trained, weather-beaten soldiers, whereas the present English forces were made up of raw, undisciplined men. Sir Thomas Clarges made this motion, upon a false report that besides the 7000 Danes, the king had sent for 8000 more, either from Hanover or

Sir Christ. Musgrave. I find, all this debate is contrary to your intent, and terminates in nothing but casting up Accounts, summa totalis, to give more Money. I am glad to hear from an honourable person, (Lowther) That the French king is not so great as represented, and cannot support the War a year.' I am glad our condition is so much mended; but it is worthy your consideration_not to let the safety of the nation depend on Foreigners. We are in a state of war, and I would therefore see our allies, what they are we must trust to; but, notwithstanding this representation of France, I believe him a potent enemy, and therefore I would see our allies that we are to depend upon: and next, the condition of the Army, what it is, and then naturally will come before you the numbers, whether they are sufficient to protect you. As for the Accounts, upon any motion of the house, you may make a new Committee to inspect them. What our armies are, and what our allies, not what they are in paper, but what are dead, and how filled up: pray keep us strictly to that debate.

Mr. Hampden, jun. When the stomach is well rectified, all the juices will be well rectified. I meddle not with the government. I am not for a Common-wealth, in the posture now of affairs we are in. I am for removing those who were of king James's council, and who would have persuaded the prince of Orange to return.

Sir Tho. Clarges. The motions are so general, that no question can be put. For those that came to treat with the prince of Orange, (without naming any persons, or what they have done) to be removed,' is a strange motion.

Mr. Foley. I would as willingly pass by what has been done, as any man; but the management has not been from ignorance, but treachery. I would let the king know what our fears are, leaving it to his wisdom and discretion, without naming persons.

Sir Edward Seymour. I shall preface my discourse with something of Order, which I find not well observed. When exception is taken at what falls from any gentleman, possibly the latter part of his discourse may explain the former. We are to consider the State of the Nation,' which I take to be very ill; whether by ignorance of those that manage affairs, or favour to king James, I shall not determine. Whether we look into Scotland, the Navy, the Army, or abroad, you will find it in ill condition. If the same hands still manage the government, either king James, or a worse thing, may come amongst us. We have no part of the executive authority of the government, but we may advise the king. To me it is all one whether we be undone by the disciples of Hugh, or the converts of father Peters; by the Counsellors of king James, or the Favourites of king William; I say, it is too well known, too bare-faced, that some are setting up for,

Sweden." Life of king William, vol. ii. p. 165,

164.