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before you can do the thing. The king is of opinion, that it may be a Fund; therefore I would have that question.

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and will you do it in less now? You will make things precarious. We shall make an ill bargain, to support the Church to destroy the State, and the Constitution of that must support Let us come to that point of the Revenue that is for life, to enable the king to carry on the war. If for security, I would consider how much is necessary to carry on the war, and then to have the power in your own hands; you that have the game in your hands, to put it into those hands that played for king James, that now play for king William! As this the last parliament, so another governs this. The white horse rides one stage, the black another. Can the properties of England be safe, when you yourselves are made properties? As for the Revenue, I would leave it like wise men, not like a horse in the mire. Have your allies left you, because you did only settle it for one year? Now you have done like wise men, I would leave the state-trap of the Revenue be

Sir John Lowther. It is my private opinion, that, for the present, the Revenue may supply the present occasion, by security; but God forbid you should confine yourselves, now you are in a war! The king desires this testimony of your affections for all he has done for us. As for the Revenue, he cannot live without it; but for Supply for these wars, I hope you will not confine yourselves. After you have voted a Supply, you may then take into consideration the Fund of Credit, and you may make this addition for both their lives, and for so many years after as to be a Fund of Credit. I am no lawyer, but believe it may be done. Mr. Foley. I cannot say any thing, till we know what the Revenue is, nor till we have an account of what has been spent of what we have already given. In three fourths of a year, the treasury has received 1,500,000l. behind you. sides what we gave; six millions were received Sir Henry Goodrick. Let us come to an last year and this. Now, what account have end of our stage. If you must have neither we of all this? Therefore I would give no Sup- 'black horse nor white for our stage,' must we ply till an account be first brought to us. I do ride upon an ass? And if we do not supply the not think that a good argument to give, be-king, we shall ride an ass. You settle it only cause the king goes into Ireland; nor conve- for the lives of your Deliverers. nient for the king to have an exchequer full, if the king goes into Ireland. I would give this king money, but not by a rule, because we have given other kings. I stand upon it, to have more reason from the accounts before we give Supply.

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Sir Henry Goodrick. If gentlemen come not prepared to support the monarchy, and establish good understanding-But when the king says, He has that confidence in this house,' I see no difficulty but that every man is prepared in his thoughts. You are upon the question of settling the Revenue.' It is that the king sets his heart upon. You may know what the Revenue is, and then you may consider the Fund your second question settles not that, unless by way of implication.

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Sir Edw. Seymour. Your motion for Supply is by order; your debates are on several things; of Supply, and the Revenue; and that is part of the Supply. When I consider we are come so lately from giving Money in one parliament, I wonder how we come to leap into that now, unless you make one parliament to vie with another ad infinitum; but if this continue, you will make the ministers independent. We that have placed the king on the throne, are those that will keep him in it. I have always seen it here, that hasty Resolutions in parliament never produced good consequences for England. We are told of former kings who had this Revenue, that from such easy concessions came our miseries; and seeing we are so well redeemed from them, let us prevent them for the future. The safest results are from hence, rather than from abroad. To settle the Revenue must be a work of time, and not to be in that inequality, useless in war, and not useful in time of peace. Had you not time little enough last parliament to consider it,

Sir John Lowther. I am sensible of the Miscarriages; and whilst there are governments, there will be miscarriages, whilst men are men. I would be glad to see men help, and not embroil. I would not willingly inflame this matter: I would with all content retire to my cottage, from my part of employment, rather than live always in such diffidence that I must be armed with head-piece and buff-coat. The Chimney-Money act, and that of Navigation, were great concessions. With what pleasure can our prince expose himself to an unhealthful country, to subject his ministers to reflections! What can man do in this case? Since I am morally assured, there can be no preservation of the Protestant Religion, not one spot of ground, not one spot of land free from Popery, not only this nation is the security of it, but this prince; and when once this single person shall be removed, it is not all the world can secure it. If they hear some few mouths that reflect upon him and his government, how can he support us? I hope there is no weight in it. Similies, without explaining, signify nothing without a meaning. I hope his government will not be reflected on in this house.

Sir Edw. Seymour. I appeal if I reflected on the integrity of that gentleman (Lowther), or the sufficiency of this (Goodrick)? I care neither for the neighing of the horse,' northe braying of the ass.' The safety of England will be better supported here, than by any other hands. This will appear by the change his majesty has made of his Counsellors. If we may not here deliver our advice, certainly that is a very evil one.

Mr. Finch. Before you put the question, there is something absolutely necessary for you to declare, viz. As you go on to settle the Re

venue, for the honour of the king, not to pass by one thing in relation to the hereditary Revenue. I remember the progress that question had in this house last parliament; it was a question, What did subsist, and what not? They were silent in that; they went only upon that for life. The next thing was a Bill to authorize the collection of it for a definite time. In that Bill there was a Clause, That the Revenue be collected for one year, and no longer:' And it was taken notice of, that the word no longer' would determine the Revenue; and, that the crown had no subsistence, was a question, whether it had any or no? (p. 138.) Still that point remains undetermined; and will you leave that to be a question still? You see that question left undecided; it is still one, whether it was hereditary in king Charles's and king James's time, and if that Revenue be vested in king and queen, in right of the crown of the realm, then it will be seen, that though new persons are on the throne, the ancient monarchy is still on the throne.

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Mr. Ettrick. As for what is said of the uncertainty of a Fund for life,' you may have a clause for Credit, in case the king and queen die before the debt is paid. I am sorry to hear it talked, as if we had not minded our condition since we changed our king. If we had a popish king, I should be more careful than under the king I am. I cannot, in justice and gratitude, do less for him than his predecessors. In king Charles 1's time, the not settling the Revenue upon him for life drew on us all the mischiefs that followed.

Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, That a Supply be given to their majesties, to enable his majesty to prosecute the war against France, and for reducing of Ireland with speed and vigour." Which was agreed to by the house, nem. con.

Col. Austen. I thought you had taken your first step, that you might walk forward. Does any gentleman undertake the quantum, or that this should be a Supply? pray let some gentleman move a quantum.

Sir Tho. Lee. The first part of your question is not for leave to bring in a Bill for the Revenue: I only offer on the word Supply;' that business of the Revenue comes in naturally, and you may offer what words you will, when the question is stated,

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Sir John Guise. I am persuaded, that those who advised the king to go into Ireland, knew how to give him money in 50 days time. If you will say more, than towards carrying on the War, say so; but let us have to-morrow to consider of it, to answer it to our country.

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Col. Austen. I shall never be afraid of a post, to bring news of what is done here. I am not for tricks of any sort. Your question is, at this time, not so. I may give Money for a Revenue; but I may, or may not, give my consent for two lives in it. Therefore put the question for a Revenue."

Sir Wm. Williams. When a question is unanimously carried, it is thought enough for

one day. Some of the Revenue may be given for lives, and some for years; but none for such a time that the parliament may not come again; therefore leave the Chair.

March 28. The house again went into a grand committee, on the Supply.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. I move, that you would take the Revenue by parts, and consider what is annexed to the Crown, and what for lives. I speak frankly, what hereditary Revenue is to be settled upon the crown, and then come to the other parts of the Revenue: for instance, half the Excise is hereditary; declare that an nexed to the crown, and then come to the other parts of the Revenue; likewise the Post-Office, the First-Fruits, and Tenths, something of the old Customs, with the Wine-Licences, &c.

Sir John Lowther. No man is more of Mus grave's opinion than myself: The motion I will make shall not preclude that. I renew the motion, to take into consideration again what you have done yesterday. Yesterday's argu ments are a fresh obligation to the king; if any thing relates to our Properties or Religion, all are relative to this. I know no arguments of dis trust of the king; nothing can prevail against it. There were jealousies of the last reign; but no instance can be given of a prince who has done so much for his people, for so short a time as he has been here. I move, that the Revenue may be settled for life.

Mr. Ettrick. It is very plain, that what is to be raised is for your service. The king's Revenue is 240,0007. less than his predecessors. As if only this question is, whether you will show that countenance to the government, as to support the king, or keep him as it were at board-wages; as if only by this question to fet ter it with forms to surprize gentlemen. [He was taken down to order by sir Wm. Strick land.]

Mr. Hampden. The house to be shackled with forms' is a strange expression. I know that forms must be kept.

Sir John Goodrick. I know of no'shackles,' but what keeps us to order and decency.

Mr. Ettrick. What I said was not reflecting upon any thing to-day, but what happened formerly. The question is very plain, Whether you will give as formerly, for life, or for 3 years?

Sir John Thompson. We have been told 'of putting the king to board-wages.' I do not aggravate the thing; but certainly we should know what we do, when we give away our money; but, that we may speak our minds freely, I think the Liberties of England are in that question. You were told yesterday, 'What you shall give on the Revenue cannot answer your end. Certainly, nothing is more preju dicial to the king, when it is demonstrable it cannot answer the end for which you give it. When you give this Supply, it must be wiped off by you. The standing Revenue is so great, that it is your danger in time of peace. Either you must keep a Standing Army, or the frugality will ruin you. The Revenue will keep 30,000

men. I should be loth to see so many foreigners in England in time of peace.

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Earl of Ranelagh. The order is, To consider the Revenue.' The motion is, "To consider the Revenue granted to king Charles and king James, that it may be granted to king William and queen Mary for their lives.' I find some gentlemen would know what this Revenue is, and what part to be granted to the king and queen. There is a Revenue for lives and years. The temporary Revenue is the imposition upon Wines and Brandy, &c. which determines in 1693. Sugars, &c. French and East India commodities determine at Midsummer. I would have it declared, That the Revenue, vested in the two last kings, is the Revenue of inheritance;' and have leave given to bring in a Bill to settle it.

Sir John Lowther. As near as I can, I will agree with the sense of every gentleman. If you will proceed in the method proposed, I am very well contented. I move, That the Revenue may be for the king and queen's lives, and the longest liver of them."

Mr. Sucheverell. I move, That a Revenue may be settled on the Crown for time to come;' and I move, That what is now vested in the Crown may not be alienated from the crown.' Whenever 'tis granted away, always the subject must pay for it. Therefore, I desire gentleinen to consider if it once comes, whenever you grant away Impositions, granted by the subject to the crown, there is an end of your government. It will make it like the great men of Spain, they get all and the king nothing.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. The question is now, what the Revenue of the Crown is to be in time of war; 'tis otherwise in time of peace. Now we must make use of all the branches of the Revenue, now we are in war. I hope the king will not take it ill, if we settle the Revenue for years; otherwise, if it is not for years, as well as for lives, it cannot be good security. If you settle it for lives, only, and not for years, it cannot be a Fund; if for both, pray declare your sense. I know not if 3 years, the number moved for, will be security or not; and if three millions will be found without a prospect of some time, moneyed men may lend, who understand security. That you may not be for a time uncertain, I move you to grant the Revenue for 4 years.

Mr. Ettrick. Tis something of a harsh proposition, the Revenue for lives and years too. I look upon the hereditary Revenue to be so far a Fund as for a present supply of Money. If we know what money is wanting, we may the better form the sum. I have heard of a million' wanting. You may make, in a clause of Credit, that no contingency may be in their lives to the lender of the money. I think we ought to have as much respect for their present majesties as the last parliament had. They proceeded so far as to move the Revenue to be settled for their lives.

Sir John Guise. Upon a supposition of what was done last session, I would have your

Books searched before you go on. I find this king and queen extremely beholden to some people that would settle the Revenue for lives. In the king's Speech there is such a proposition, that, if we can find no other way, the Revenue then is to be a Fund. I should think the Revenue a very ordinary present to the king, so incumbered, by advices, from other persons, not from hence. I would take time to present the king with a free Gift, and worthy of him to receive. Then your business is to support the War. Do you intend this shall be out of the Revenue? If they intend no other Supply than the Revenue for the present or any other, let them speak. I have heard, that they who lend Money love to have it in their power once in six months. I would not dispose of the Reve nue farther than becomes a prudent man, who may answer it to his country, 'Tis said, Put no distrust on the king;' but I would not have all ill management laid on the king, which ought to be laid on the ministers. Here have been particular grumblings against persons' ill management; and since, now the Revenue is in your hands, you cannot know these persons, how will you know them that have done amiss, when the Revenue is out of your hands? I think it ought not to reflect on any particular prince, when others have the keeping of his ears. I would have a Fund of Credit for 4 years, and no longer.

Col. Austen. I am against the question, for the king and queen's sake. I am against granting the Revenue for lives, for what the king (that now is) has declared in his Declaration, when prince. One of his businesses was, to secure us that no successor be able to bring us again into our misfortunes. The great mischief being the Revenue for lives, you will never do good in an ill prince's time--I am sure you will never tell him that he is an ill one. A parliament will secure you from other ill persons, as well as ill kings; I mean, the ministers. Granting it for life will prevent any ill ministers from being called in question, and you can never reach them. I hope the king will be as rich at the end of this time 4 years, as if he had the revenue for life.

Sir Joseph Williamson. It will certainly be for the king's service, that people may see themselves out of fear of not meeting the king frequently in parliament. In the close, I shall agree that the remaining part of the Excise be settled for life. The necessary expences of the crown must be supported, or else we fall-You will not at all be alarmed with the defect of a parliament.-That is the thing; the king's necessity will bring the king to the people, and the people to the king.. I will only add this, besides growing extraordinary unforeseen accidents, though I hope we shall be soon out of this costly war. You were told yesterday,

That the Revenue was clogged, and can bear nothing;'-and what you must now give will still necessitate parliaments-As, on the one hand, I would not give all for life, so I am for a reasonable security. If half the Excise be for

life, there will remain still a Fund for Credit, and yet be secured from the common fear of wants of parliament.

Mr. Sacheverell. Before this question be put, of lives, I desire a little satisfaction, whether you intend to have any Fund of Credit, if you take away all indubitable security? What fund can you have in the Customs in time of war? They that had no regard to the last parliament, will have as little regard to you, when you are gone. You have settled the hereditary Revenue; now, what Fund of Credit have you on contingency of the Customs? Plainly, will you have a Fund of Credit or not? What can be borrowed on the Customs, suppose them 400,000l. to this year and the next; what sum can you propound upon this credit? Can any man believe they will lend? 400,000. is all you can borrow in a year, and scarce that; few will lend the utmost value. I know no way of certainty but to leave the king 600,000l. an entire Fund of Credit to borrow upon. But if you leave the thing indefinite, you will have, I believe, little or no use of a parliament for the future.

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Debate on the Supply.] March 31. The house went into a grand committee on the Supply.

Sir John Lowther. Part of your great work is over. You have voted the Revenue to king William and queen Mary. I doubt not but to the satisfaction of all men, at least, good men. The next thing is to provide for your own security. This is a great task, a great work. No government can be supported, but within these walls. I am sorry to tell you, that the king is at an extraordinary charge, never felt before. I have known civil wars, and wars in Ireland, but never with so potent a prince as the French king You have but part of Ireland in your hands, [and then giving an Account of the defects in the Customs, &c. towards the great Charge, concludes] There can be no Army, but upon free quarter, nor Ships, but in harbour, if Money be not taken up.

Sir Charles Sedley. Mr. Speaker; we have provided for the Army; we have provided for the Navy: and now, at last, a new reckoning is brought us, we must likewise proResolved, "1. That it is the opinion of this vide for the Lists. Truly, Mr. Speaker, it is a committee, that the hereditary Revenues, which sad reflection, that some men should wallow in the late king James 2. was, the 10th of Dec. wealth and places, whilst others pay away, in 1688 entitled to, became and are vested in their taxes, the fourth part of their revenue, for the present majesties, king William and queen Mary, support of the same government. We are not in right of the crown of England, except the late upon equal terms, for his majesty's service: the Revenue arising by Fire-Hearths and Stoves. Courtiers and Great Officers charge, as it were, 2. That the house be moved for leave to bring in armour: they feel not the Taxes, by reason in a Bill to declare, that the said Revenues are of their places, whilst the country gentlemen so vested; and that therein provision be made, are shot through and through by them. The that they shall not be aliened from the crown, king is pleased to lay his Wants before us, and, nor chargeable with any Gift or Grant to be I am confident, expects our advice upon it: we made for the future. 3. That the house be ought therefore to tell him what Pensions are moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the settling too great; what Places may be extinguished, that moiety of the Excise, which was granted to during the time of the War, and public calathe late king Charles 2. and king James 2. or mity. His majesty sees nothing but coaches either of them, for their lives, upon their present and six, and great tables, and therefore cannot majesties for their lives, and the life of the long-imagine the want and misery of the rest of his est liver of them; with a clause to enable their majesties to make the said Revenue a security for raising money towards a Supply, not exceed ing the sum of 4. That the house be moved for leave to bring in a Bill to grant to their present majesties for the term of 4 years, from Christmas next, the Customs which were granted to the late king Charles 2. and king James 2. for their lives; with a Clause to enable their majesties to make the said Revenue a security for raising money towards a Supply, not exceeding the sum of "Which were all agreed to by the house.

"But though these Votes were carried without a division, they were not carried without a debate: some thought they were too comprehensive, and some that they were too limited. The latter were for having the Customs for life, as well as the Excise: bishop Burnet says, 'This was much pressed; but,' continues he, it was taken up as a general maxim, that the Revenue for a certain and a short term, was the best security that the nation could have for frequent parliaments. The bishop adds, The king did VOL. V.

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subjects: he is a brave and generous prince, but he is a young king, encompassed and hemmed in by a company of crafty old courtiers. To say no more, some have Places of 3000l. some

not like this, he said to myself, Why should they entertain a jealousy of him, who came to save their religion and liberties, when they trusted king James so much, who intended to destroy both? I answered, They were not jealous of him, but of those who might succeed him and if he would accept the gift for a term of years, and settle the precedent, he would be reckoned the Deliverer of succeeding ages, as well as the present."" Ralph.

Somers Tracts, 1 coll. vol. ii. p. 487. Sir Charles was one of the most remarkable wits of king Charles 2d's reign, and father to the countess of Dorchester, who was mistress to king James 2, which occasioned him, after voting for the prince of Orange's succeeding to the crown, at the Revolution, merrily to say, "That, in return for king James's having made his daughter a countess, he had given his Vote to make his daughter a queen.'

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of 6000l. and others of 8600l. per annum, and I am told, the Commissioners of the Treasury have 1600l. per annum a-piece. Certainly, public Pensions, whatever they have been formerly, are much too great for the present want and calamity that reigns every where else: and it is a scandal, that a government so sick at heart, as ours is, should look so well in the face. We must save the king Money wherever we can, for I am afraid the War is too great for our purses, if things be not managed with all imaginable thrift. When the people of England see all things are saved, that can be saved; that there are no exorbitant Pensions, nor unnecessary Salaries, and all this applied to the use to which they are given; we shall give, and they shall pay whatever his majesty can want, to secure the Protestant religion, and to keep out the king of France, and king James too; whom, by the way, I have not heard named this session; whether out of fear, discretion, or espect, I cannot tell. I conclude, Mr. Speaker, let us save the king what we can, and then let us proceed to give what we are able.

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give counsel. Let the matter be how it will, if religion and laws will be safe, under such a motion; I am mistaken, unless other men have other prospects, than I have; and do not say but you are warned of the consequence.

Col. Austen. We are come into necessity and pressure of times for Money. Is it the fault of the commons of England? Were they the cause of that necessity? It will be found, that you have done your parts. The advice was very bold, and things were taken care for somewhere else, to send the parliament down. None tell us what will serve the king, and those near him yet do not tell us what is required.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. I dare not love the name of undertaker,' so as to ruin my nation, I know not what Lowther means by a Prospect:' I have none but the support of monar chy, and the nation. We have settled the Re venue, and that was called Supply! I said, it ought to be at the peril of any body, that undertakes what to borrow.' The necessity is not from us-We have no sums told us, and when we name them, we are reproached for it.

Sir Edw. Seymour. If I thought your enquiry would bring you to your end, I should be for Sir Tho. Lee. The farther consideration of it; but I would rather close with the other mo- credit is come to 500,000l. and no more. I did tion, of what is most necessary to be provided not advise that the Revenue be charged, nor to for. The stress of the question lies to give the run upon borrowing, but that every year might Revenue for a Fund, and when given, no secu- defray the charge. If it will not answer your rity. If you begin with enquiries after Misma-end by security, it is as good as nothing at all. nagements, and pass them over slightly, you establish them, and will never have a true one. Let us prevent them for the future. But when the Fleet is employed in every man's business but ours, no wonder that Ireland miscarry. Let us know what money remains of what was given the last parliament, and give what comes short of that sum for present Supply.

Sir John Guise. I must take it for granted, that, upon the dissolution of the last parliament, things were well weighed. What was wanting of the sum before? When a way was found out to supply the king, to cut all that off ata stroke by a prorogation! Who dares be the man, that will avow it?

Sir Christ. Musgrave. I must believe, that what is requisite for carrying on the War has been weighed before we came hither. Was it not the intention, that granting the Revenue, and settling it, was a Supply? If nobody will give us an Account, either borrow what you can, or the house must order it, as in all your bills you have borrowing clauses-Will you leave it to the king at large to borrow, or limit such a sum, not to exceed such a sum? Suppose you give credit not to exceed 500,000l. Sir John Lowther. If the meaning he a power of borrowing 500,000l. only, and no other Supply, I would ask that member, whether he will answer that to his country? And, as it is uncertain whether it can be borrowed, how can he go into his country, and the Army not paid, and the Fleet in harbour? I dare not undertake it. I am in the king's service, but have a fortune to support my condition. I can obey commands, but am not in a post to

Still the king tells you, if no other way be to be
found, then to charge the Revenue. If you go
on with the War, and the whole be anticipated,
you will make your enemies far from having
inclination to peace. If there be not towards
500,000l. to pay off Seamen at Michaelmas,
when they come up, you may possibly have
200,000l. more to pay. I believe, at the end
of September, when they come in, 500,000?.
will not pay Seamens wages.
What I say is
only a short hint to consider how things are.

Sir Francis Blake. They prorogued us, and then dissolved us; surely they knew where Money was to be had. It is so hot from the mint, that it has dropped through our hats.

Sir Henry Goodrick. It is unhappy, that we have looked so far into things, as to have lost ourselves in the debate in reflections. The pressure is so great, that the Army and Ordnance, the safety and honour of the king's person, every thing that is dear to us, I fear, must be laid aside. Things have been fairly and candidly managed-I am an accomptant for great sums, and those about the king are willing to inform you-No man doubts the preservation of the public, but the way we dispute of. It is extremely pressed in the house, as if some slight of band was in the last debate. There is nothing in the king's Speech, but what he will make good, as to the Revenue; but the question is, as to the quantum; so much as will bear the Charge goes towards it, but you are told it will come short,' it is a great and terrible sum at first to name, two millions;' but if this be exclusive of all other things, the very Ordnance comes to that sui. I do not verily know,

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