that you cannot put the Ordnance into its ancient course without 300,000l. Do not let this preclude all other Supply.

Sir John Guise. After having heard some reflections on Musgrave's motion, I am concerned for the honour of the house; necessities you are brought to, and these not your own fault, and then to be asked, 'Whether we can answer this to our country? But the question I would ask, is, How came the French to be landed in Ireland, and your Militia not settled in England? I cannot answer that-Whether | you will fill up the blanks, or put the sum moved, is the question?

Sir John Lowther. I hope, that, iu this, I am rather transported with zeal for my country, than any particular reflections on any body. If I did not misunderstand the gentleman, he said, he hoped we should not grant two Supplies in one session.' I appeal, whether there is not a hazard of the security of the nation by it? I know not that the Militia of the kingdom is not settled, though I know not that it is settled; for orders were sent down to have them in readiness. When I said, Musgrave might have some other prospect,' I meant, that it is impossible but that this nation should be ruined, if this be not a Supply.

Sir Tho. Clarges. These Accounts of the Revenue are a little puzzling. It is a hard matter to be clear in it, in a committee of the whole house (and so reckons up what has been given, &c. and what is in Arrear, &c.) Certainly there has been great mismanagement, whether by unskilfulness of the managers, or otherwise, which has some resemblance to a private family: I must live, and have meat, drink, and cloaths: I should follow that, and postpone all other occasions. The fleet, army, and ordnance are appendixes-They should have minded those things in which all our safety is concerned, and have applied to that. (Perhaps it is so, but here are great outcries.) I think that 20,000 men, considering our alliance with Holland, are as many as we need. As to the greatest reckonings we can make, we know it was said 36,000 men, and now they say, 'Thank God, we have 16,000.' I have had the honour to be in the army, and have seen the establishment for 80,000l. per mensem, for 40,000 foot, and 10,000 horse. God forbid we should cut the pattern too narrow! I would have all provided against. Enemies we have without, and enemies within. I cannot tell what to advise, but I would have it proposed, what sum will defend us till we meet again, and what they have towards it. Before we come to a sum, let the hon. persons explain what condition we are in, and what is necessary now. It is the common talk of the town, that the great occasion of these diminutions is ill management-Men cannot know these things by inspiration-Land and tide-waiters brag what they can smuggle and cheat-farmers were managers, but after they had made up their own pack, they cared not what become of the rest. Formerly, great care was taken, that all the

officers of England were inspected. I am weary of finding fault. For the present, I move for what sum shall be necessary, and what we can have towards this out of the Revenue.

Sir R. Temple. The Customs, in time of peace, never rise to more than 600,000l. per annyin. Michaelmas was greater than after; they heaped in great quantities of goods by prospect of a war. I believe they are not now 400,000 7. per annum.

Mr. Paul Foley. It concerns us to give the king a Supply, but it concerns us as much not to give more than is necessary. We have strange Accounts of the Revenue (and so reckons up the Account given in by sir John Lowther). I hope our case is not so bad as is represented, and that we are not at a loss for so much money as is spoken of. Let us have a fair Account. The lowest Account amounts to more than what the Navy and Army want; but if not laid out upon the Army and Fleet, surely there is more reason to have things before us. I move, "That the house may be moved, that an Account be brought in of the Money, &c. and how disbursed." [To proceed the next day.]

April 1. In a grand committee, on the Supply, Mr. Hampden. I hope this day will end to the satisfaction of every gentleman. The great end of this day, is the preservation of the government, and keeping it from ruin. I having the honour to serve the king in his Revenue, (as chancellor of the exchequer,) it is from thence the measures of the house are to be taken. If you do not supply the king, you will fall into the misfortune of tradesmen, to shut up their shops, and to make what we have omitted amongst our lamentations. There was a great debate yesterday about Accounts, but this I will say, that it is the king's desire, and all I have the honour to serve with, that you should know them. I have an Abstract of the Account, which I hope will give satisfaction. I have sent for all the auditors. I wish you would take the Account I have, and I say it is a true Account, and will be justified; threefourths of it are ready to be justified by all the vouchers, to Christmas; but take the Account your own way, and direct your way. of better understanding than I may not understand my trade, but it may be explained to him by the officers, who shall attend upon any gentleman that please. Let it not run away, that the money is mis-spent; it is not so embarrassed as gentlemen have spoken of. Gentlemen say,

A man

What should we give Money for, before we know how it shall be spent?' But the true intent is to satisfy; and, though you cannot take the Accounts now, do it at your leisure in recess of parliament. Take them, and they shall be opened and explained to you. I blame nobody for making these objections; they do likę good stewards for their country. If any officer be to blame, let him be named. Whether Money has been well employed, or no, I cannot answer that; but let not that be an objection. Name any body to enquire into the ill

usage; but, as for the great charge of military affairs, I know nothing of that; but if you think persons undermine the government, and waste the treasury, you are to give the king counsel as well as money. This way of communication is the way to end all differences and jealousies, amongst friends. I have ever had a great reverence for the house of commons; so I have lived, and so I shall die, a faithful commoner of England. But, after all, will you support the government? I know you will support it. You have sent the king your Vote, and carried it solemnly; but, on the other side, if these objections be any thing, your government will fall of itself: If you say, you will support it, do support it. If any objection of Mismanagement remain, remove them that have been faulty. If you let it lie in suspense, none of these objections will save the government from falling. I humbly move, and desire all gentlemen to consider, that, seeing the calamities that will attend the loss of the government, which every gentleman may figure to himself— What will it avail to say, that you are cozened, and, if you give more, you shall be cozened? But are you the better for saving your Money, if Ireland be lost, perhaps England too? Popery, French, and Irish, to dwell among you, and govern you; and saving the Taxes will be but cold comfort at last, to say, I have saved 100 l. in taxes, and perhaps my estate will be sequestered, or worse; I must either renounce my religion, or lose it.' What I aim at is this, that Money must be given, and speedily given, and by no way but by a Fund; and not any of the consequences, but you may prevent afterwards; else you will be too late, and have another distemper upon you to cure. When you go into a committee, do it speedily; and, whatever Credit, give it a sound Credit. You will be here suddenly again, and may enquire into the management.

Sir John Lowther. I doubt not but gentlemen take into consideration the condition of their bleeding country. Under Heaven, there can be no assistance but from this house. I would to God, gentlemen would believe that some men intend sincerely, and tell you truth! As for the profits of my employment, they have| not paid my house-rent, and I care not if they ever do more; and if my service be acceptable, I am more than over-rewarded. Gentlemen that have ventured their lives and estates, as I have done, upon a change, must suffer in the common calamity. There is no Money in the treasury, except the appropriated Money. I know not of one shilling in the treasury. Upon stating your Expences as near as I can, I freely own the establishment is greater than the nation can bear. This unhappiness might have been prevented by the last house of commons, if you had represented that the nation could not bear the establishment. I presume we did not think it so, and would have supplied it. I am of opinion, that it is too great an expence; but I believe no gentleman has retrenched one dish at his table, or one servant in his family. (Then

he gave an account of the Charge of the Navy.) So formidable a sum is needful, that I dare not mention it; but I hope gentlemen will be so kind, in their advice, as to direct us in the retrenching, that they may approve of it when you meet next. Deductions must be allowed for all things, as Deserters, false Musters, &c. and I will hope that Forfeitures may do a great deal in Ireland; and the Fleet is not paid till they come home; but, in the mean time, stores must be supplied. I hope gentlemen, therefore, will assist in the retrenchments. I believe, in any country, they would first consider what must be necessary for their own preservation. In my poor opinion, I think it impossible to carry on the War without 1,500,000l. before Michael

mas.

Col. Granville. I have ever thought that Money-motions came best from rich mouths. The dangers have been well stated, and if they had not, they would have spoken for themselves; and I hope this wise assembly will get out of them, as well as enquire how they came into them. If there are any discontents, let us know what they are angry with, and with whom, and not complain in generals. I move, That we may farther supply the king with Credit.'

Sir John Thompson. I look upon it, that, in the last year's proceedings, the parliament did believe themselves ill used in the management. They were drawing an Address to the king; and when they had given their money, they were sent away; and so may this. As to what is said by Lowther, 'Why did we not complain the last parliament?' there was complaint; and the Lists did not appear to be 50,000 men; and for them was computed 1,400,000/. Now it comes in 1,500,000!. It is strange it should be so vast a debt, when we have supplied all that was demanded! That with the Revenue makes three millions. All the Navy did not go out in a day; that, and the other things, will make a considerable deduction. We shall never come to a right state of things, till we know what Forces we have; for still, the more you give, the more you are in debt: and I would ask those who tell you, That half Ireland is lost, and England may be too,' why was not Ireland secured first?

Sir Rob. Cotton. No gentleman here but is sensible of the treasure given, and the little ef fects of it. It is reason to consider, not what we might have been, but what we are. The only question before you is, to consider how this Supply may be raised, and what Fund; therefore, first consider the State of the Reve nue, and what may be laid upon it for a Fund.

Col. Austen. I think two things are under consideration; Supply, and, which is as necessary, that it go to right purposes. If under management of those who have led you out of the way, what probable reason can be given? If there be necessity, there is as great necessity to see it well employed. I would not ask account of actions last year, but I wish we might have a prospect how they will be managed better.

Mr. Comptroller Wharton. Every body here, I believe, has the same zeal to serve the king, and the government. I move, that you will hold us to one question, "What is necessary to carry on the War?' I could not know what to move, but from a gentleman (Lowther) whose calculation I believe to be true. I confess, it is a great sum proposed, and since it must be raised, 1,500,000l. has been named, it has not been seconded, but I do. It is a great sum I must confess, but I know not how it can be less.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. You state that right which was named; but I will put you in mind, that there was a sum named under the gallery, 700,000l. and, by order, the least sum is to be put first. I would gladly know, when you have voted it, how it must be raised? I know no other way but by the Revenue, or Land-Tax. Land is already charged till Christmas. If you charge it with a million more, how long will that be, and we expect at Michaelmas another debt, and you will be put to new methods of raising, viz. by home excise. You are told, and I find it is taken for granted, That the expence of the War is greater than the nation can bear.' I know it is not seasonable now to take notice of mismanagement, by an Address; but, if you take no notice at all, you confirm what was omitted the last parliament. Do you intend that artificers shall have assignments for their debts, and pay 7 per cent. interest? and then consider how interest eats out; and, besides, by great rates for wares; and in this method, who knows how to support the government? Therefore, before you grant the money, consider the ways of raising it.

Sir Joseph Williamson. The gentleman under the gallery, speaking of the Revenue, seemed to say, That the Revenue might bear it;' but made no direct motion. 1,400,000l. after so much money given, is a great sum; but, whatever the sum, it is to make all the rest good, our religion and properties, &c. Far be it from us to think that sum will undo us. He that you have to do with, will be brought to reason sooner by this house, than by all the money you can raise. This is a great sum, and it is hard to lay it, yet it is not impossible. If that of the Revenue had been a little better opened, you might have gone on more easily: I must give all my help to that question moved. Perhaps I should not refuse to give my consent to this; but it has been scarce seen that so much expence has brought so little honour and advantage to the nation. I look back with astonishment! I have served near the throne, where there have been cross biasses in affairs; but when we have a prince who will think it for his service to enquire into managements, I hope they will be put in such a way that we shall not do it again. Put the enquiry into some way, and when you come back, go through it. As to my way of absolving myself in my own duty, I shall give my affirmative to the question of 700,0001.

Mr. Ettrick. I would give what will do the

work: If not done this year, it will not be the next. I propose 1,200,000l.

Sir John Guise. We see the word towards' is come to something more. You are now come to a sum of Money proposed. I speak plainly: If there be any gentleman who has denied to day, that things have been driven to a necessity, I'll tell you from whence this Grievance does proceed; that people do not own the counsels they have given; the visible part of the privy council. Is any about the king that had a hand in the Charters? If by that way our misfortunes have come, it ought to be rectified. In queen Elizabeth's time, no man was ashamed to own his own counsels; she had the privy council's advice and consent in all things; and if we give to supply what Mismanagements have cost us, we do our duty to our country.

Sir W. L. Gower. I hope we shall not only empty their pockets that have cheated us, but squeeze their veins of their blood, for the ill things they have done. I move for the greatest sum.

Sir John Thompson. A million is as much as you can raise, give what you will; therefore I move for it.

Sir Tho. Lee. I agree with the gentleman that moved for a million; but I would be satisfied how it can answer the occasion; that is all the difficulty with me. Land is already taxed largely. Don't give less, that you may live upon credit. I would not have the whole security of England be at the pleasure of a few men, whom you bor row from. The Army is to be paid monthly, and that will take up all the first money: the poor seamen will be unpaid. Parliaments do not desire to come much before Michaelmas.

The committee divided, and the million,' passed in the negative.

Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that a sum not exceeding 1,200,000l. be the Supply to be given to their majesties, for the public occasions, between this and Michaelmas, in prosecuting the War against France, and reducing of Ireland with speed and vigour." -Which was agreed to by the house.

April 2. Sir W. Strickland moves for instructions to the committee, That the Supply be not raised upon Land Tax.'

Col. Austen, on Mr. Hampden's setting forth the necessity of Supply, said, You have now two necessities, Money and Land; and give me leave to offer a third, the people's living. He that does not faithfully advise the king, is not a good subject.

Sir Henry Goodrick. I am of opinion, and do not doubt, but what has been said is true. All new experiments are uncertain. This only I desire, before we enter into a hasty Resolu tion, to propose some ways to raise this money. The gentleman that moved it, I believe, can tell you ways; therefore I beseech you, at least, to weigh this, and not, by a vote, to expose the nation to ruin. Before you put such a question, pray let us debate it.

Sir Tho. Lee. I take it, the debate is upon Instructions to the committee, that no part of

Sir Henry Goodrick. I have declared myself all along; I will deal fairly: I think the Revenue ought to bear a great share of this; but to lay a negative upon land, customs, or excise, there is an equal latitude upon all these to put a negative. You were told of three necessities' from the bar; perhaps the same necessity may be on other things; and, at last, necessity upon nothing. If this pass once in the negative, you lay such a baffle upon the committee, that they cannot get through it.

Mr. Solicitor Somers. The business of parliament is best done, by preserving methods of parliament. Departing from what is always considered of, at a committee, may be very prejudicial; the variety of opinions you have heard, requires debate. That being the case, and method of parliament, pray leave the chair.

Sir John Guise. Suppose you should lay this tax upon land, you know not the success of the war, and would you have no resort to make new recruit of money? Can you answer this to your country? It looks to me as an extremity, the utmost shock, and the way to bring in king James, if you go first to the dernier resort.

Sir Robert Cotton. Nothing but great necessity yesterday brought us to vote so great a sum of money, but have a care lest we put ourselves on greater necessity. We have an army in England, as well as in Ireland, and I know not whether we are safe without such a guard, and home excise to maintain that army. These things, so natural, we may expect may follow. I doubt not but the kingdom of England may raise money without burdening land. I hope gentlemen are so disposed, as not to be willing to bring the nation into necessity of such fatal consequences. Pray put the question. Let us keep England, whatever becomes of Ireland.

Sir Robert Rich. You have been upon a long debate, upon a negative upon land-tax. I would willingly go into a committee freely, but I own I am against all home-excises.

Mr. Swynfin. As to the arguments against land-tax, I have been here the best part of 20 years, and all the projects would never do. The way of our ancestors has always been upon land, and they abhorred excise, and all other projects. I wish we prove wiser than they. We had a war with the Dutch, as now we

Mr. Harcourt. If you give the tax on land now, I fear you will lose as many men as you give pounds. The goodness of the prince, and his greatness too, is shown by the easiness of the government.

Resolved, That it be an Instruction to the committee, That the Supply to be given to their majesties be not laid upon Land, without leave from the house.

The house then went into a grand committee. Sir Edw. Seymour. I cannot but take notice, that we are come into an extraordinary method of argument. The only answer to it is, If those without doors had done their parts as well as they within, these Miscarriages had never been.' I was one of those for the lesser sum, as it might have been raised out of the Revenue. The king's resolution for going into Ireland was taken before any thought of enabling him, in parliament, in all respects that would enable him to do it. Some gentlemen tell us, The Revenue will not prove sufficient security, because those without doors dare not lend upon it.' But pray tell me, if I ask those without doors, will they not tell me, the land is charged already? The affections of the people are not to be hazarded. People I see already mention the goodness of their princes, and their greatness too, by the easiness of their government.' We are to secure ourselves from the whole, Popery, Ireland, and the French king. I could have been glad that your sums might come up to the whole Revenue, but, with that caution, if it does not secure it, to make it good when you come again. All I drive at, is, to go on with such a consideration, in what we give, as not to lose what we have already given by land-tax. Those persons that serve you in commodities, will think themselves better secured by the Revenue in the Exchequer, that every one in his order is duly paid.

*Son of sir Philip Harcourt, and afterwards distinguished by his eminence at the bar. In 1702, he was appointed Solicitor-General, and in 1707, Attorney-General to queen Anne, which office he quitted by a voluntary surrender a few months after, but was recalled to it in 1710; and was the same year made Lord Keeper of the Great Seal, and created lord Harcourt. In 1712, he was declared Lord Chancellor, and in 1721, he was created a visHe died in 1727.

count.