Michael's) have notice to attend this house, 13 14 ground, but all regal power ceases; there Sir John Lowther. After the difficulties you have heard from the learned gentlemen, no wonder I should doubt; but when we are in a plain, to run round and miss the way we may wonder. We are misled by the Bill, so far mistaken by the lords, that if we pursue it, we shall be led into invincible difficulties. You are told, That as this bill is penned, commissions of the peace cease.' I offer, that, instead of the enacting part, you will declare that all the queen does, in absence of the king, shall be in the same force as if the king exe cuted it-That by the government beyond the sea, the ships are not restrained in port, as well as in Ireland-One difficulty only, of several commands; but there will be such a deference to the king's resolutions, that he will always be obeyed. And that, on the king's return, the queen's power ceases, I think will be no doubt-All acts done by her majesty to be of equal force as if done by the king. Mr. Solicitor Somers. 12 Edw. S, the duke of Cornwall was Custos Regni-The duke of Bedford, the king's brother, was Custos, and left till farther order. 33 Henry 6, Custos by act of parliament, with several other precedents. 15 Edw. 4, in his expedition into France, Edward, prince of Wales, was Custos during his absence, and till farther order. Henry 7, the king constitutes, in his absence, queen Catherine Gubernatrix Regni. James 1, in his absence, till farther order, the privy-council were constituted, and no name given in the commission, but to take care of the king's children and affairs. In Ch. 1's time, the council were impowered much as in king James's time, all determinable in absentia nostrâ in partibus transmarinis, et donec redier : all those powers to be exercised by a particular council. In Edw. 3's time, three counsellors mentioned. In Henry 8, Gubernatrix Regni, it was expressly appointed what act she shall do by her own power, and what by her council. These I lay before you, and make what use of them you please. This is a new case, and like none of those I have mentioned; and we are in a government not a year old. Any thing you do of this nature will be of great consequence; and, as this case is, to consider extreme well what is done. It is discoursed of abroad, of a Commonwealth, and we should be very considerate in divesting and divesting. The necessity of a change should be obvious and apparent to the world; so suitable and invincible, that it should always carry its own excuse along with it. I heard it mentioned yesterday, That all commissions do determine upon this Regency:' but if it be a doubt, it is your great concern to obviate it. If some, in the king's absence, should refuse to act, and others to obey, it will be of great consequence to the government; and some question will lie as to the continuation of the parliament: but, as to the king's exclusion of all power, during this regency, it was proposed, if you leave out some words, it would be a cure, if the words ended there at dominions, &c.' Does it not carry all the places annexed to England? Suppose any exemption to Ire-rible consequences. When an act of parlia land, that it should not extend to it, yet all doubts are not obviated. The king in Ireland, and the whole administration of the queen here. -Whatever necessity, or orders, are but letters of intimation from one to another. If the king send ships from Ireland, they have no sort of authority to serve out of Ireland. These are difficulties. Give me leave to hint some things: the bill says, As often as the king shall be out of England, &c.' I will suppose they go to be crowned in Scotland, all their power ceases; they are no sooner on Scotch 6 On a complaint of sir Edward Seymour. See the day, p. 619. Sir Wm. Pulteney. The more I have thought of this bill, the less I have understood it. I will not dispute what an act of parliament can do. It may have some resemblance of the great power of the world; it may create, and uncreate. It may make the moon shine, for ought I know-But we have the case of lieutenants, guardians, and Custodes Regni, but that is not our case. It was never before in the world. Here are a king and queen, and a king invested with regal power, and you divest him, and put it into the queen. The king can take no notice of what she does here. In the queen is the regal power, as our queen can or could do; she may dissolve this parliament, raise an army, set out a fleet. I know not how to qualify these things, but I see ter ment comes to terminate his power, I know not how that will operate on all commissions. I know not but some men may have a strange notion, when the king is gone, that it is a resignation of the crown.. A king and queen of England, and not in England, will be a strange composition. What authority will there be to send ships out of Ireland? Though I think it of mighty advantage that the king go into Ireland, yet this bill is of so strange a composition to come from the lords, and the judges there, that this will have many more consequences than I can enumerate. My motion must be this, to take three or four days time to consider of it. are not so ready to determine a thing of this consequence. You have heard a great many objections made; I cannot pretend to answer them. You have had a motion to adjourn the debate till a farther time; but if you consider, it will make a great alteration, the government being but very young, and not very strong. Sir Robert Sawyer. That it is necessary that the government be left somewhere, all agree; and I cannot think any way but by something in the queen's hands. You have been told of precedents. That of Hen. 6. is not of this nature; for the power of Custos Regni is well known. In some acts of parliament, their power was limited. The Custos was but a delegate of the king's; though he might do acts as king in such exigencies, yet he was excluded the king's power. The king cannot delegate his power, because the king and queen must not give this power away, but by act of parliament. It is not designed to exclude the exercise from the king, either in Ireland or France, but that there must not be a defect of the administration, during the king's absence.jections be not cured, the king has no power The crown and regal authority are vested in the king and queen. Though the king issues out the proclamation, they are in the name of the king and queen. Mr. Pelham, Seeing the long robe are so full of doubts, we may very well, and they will not inform us. I move to let the bill lie upon the table till this day sevennight. Sir Tho. Clarges. If report be true, the difficulties in Ireland are not so great as apprehended. I hope, that, if there be a necessity of the king's going, that necessity may be explained. The bill is conditional, if the king should go. I would not be left here without some provision for the public peace. I would not have the debate put off, till I know not when, nor for I know not what. If the ob when in Ireland. But the great difficulty is, if the king be not master of Ireland this summer, we shall not hope to keep England long. If the French king once gets the ports of Ireland, we shall not send out a cock-boat. Let us not, by putting the debate off, make the difficulty so great, that the king cannot go at all, but sit de diem in diem, till we have settled the thing. Mr. Harbord. I am amazed to see us handle such indifferent things, and let the government sink. I will lay it open plainly to you; though, I confess, the maxits of king Charles 2's government are still apt to be misrepresented, for what a man shall say here, as I have been. But for an Account of Ireland, why in such a condition? The troops are not able to march; officers are not paid since the 1st of Sept. last; most are behind-hand of subsistence money; to the Army 80,000l. due. I have laid it open to the commissioners of the treasury, and they cannot do it. If they have not suddenly 200,000l. in Ireland, nothing can be done there. If you do nothing now, it will be too late to think on it. Serjeant Maynard. This noble lady, the queen, has so demeaned herself, that there is not one man nor woman but will trust her. By the former act, the administration of the government was solely in the king, and now by this in another, exclusive. No wise man will trust where he cannot remedy. The precedents spoken of are like making a map of a country which we have never seen. There was a Custos, but limited to some things, not without counsellors, and they named; but as for the learned gentleman (Sawyer) I am sorry I seldom agree with him in the house. Thomas Aquinas brought religion to nothing by distinctions. If this commission be granted by authority, does not the former authority determine? Being derivative from it, the king has it Sir Edw. Hussey. I take the king to be no no more, it is in the queen. All that is done king after this bill is passed. It is no man's to us for our religion and properties to be put intention to have the king put upon another upon a moot point on a sudden! Let us con- Abdication; if he has a mind to another abdisider of it, and God direct us! We are fallen cation, those near him, I hope, will acquaint into a wilderness entangled by our enemies; the house, for the preservation of the moGod send us well out of it! Many hold them-narchy and church. I would have a week's selves not at all bound to king William. Queen time at least to consider of it. Elizabeth was a young woman, yet conquered the greatest prince in Europe. No man can wish better to the common-wealth than I do; if that stand, I care not what becomes of me. The king to have power in Ireland, and none here! The thing is so great, that I am upon my knees lest we should be swallowed up by enemies, or betrayed by our friends. Mr. Harcourt. The king having declared his resolution to go into Ireland, it is our duty to help him thither. The king has chosen the queen for the administration of the government in his absence. I am not for putting her under guardianship, nor for putting her under council. She may sway the sceptre, and I know not why she should not have the power. Sir Tho. Littleton. It is possible that you Sir Edw. Norris. If the king should die in this expedition, and the queen be regent, what if, out of duty to her father, if he land, she should not oppose him? Sir Edw. Seymour. The methods of this debate confirm me in what I thought, when we first entered into it; that there would be so many difficulties in it, as would not easily be digestible. You find, by the debate, how little the thing is intelligible. If it be no more, when it has passed both houses, I need not tell you the consequence. These considerations are sufficient to put it off for some time. I would not have it too long, but put it off to Monday.-Which was ordered. Debate on sir E. Seymour's Charge against Mr. Roue for dispersing a Libel. May 2. Mr. Authony Rowe, member for St. Michael's, attending in his place, being charged, by sir Edward Seymour, with dispersing a Paper reflecting on their majesties Government, and on several members of the last parliament, the same was brought up to the table, and read; being entitled, A Letter to a Friend, upon the Dissolution of the Parliament, and the calling of a new one; together with the List of those that were against making the prince and princess of Orange king and queen."" 6 Sir Edw. Seymour. I shall not say much now. You have heard the gentleman. When you have passed your censure on the Libel, I shall tell you my thoughts of the person who published it. Col. Austen. I am as much against these sort of practices as any body; but may I not name a member guilty of the same crime? It was col. Beaumont, who brought a Libel, and out of it named clauses, and persons that brought them in. Pray accept of this Libel, and read it, and pass your censure upon it. Sir Edw. Seymour. I hurably speak to your order, and nothing else. You have ordered Mr. Rowe to be here, and you have read the Libel, and, before you proceed, I beg your determination in that; and let this gentleman have the censure. This has been kept long. Mr. Rowe was charged in his place, and had time, and I presume that gentleman (Beaumont) will require the same time that the other had. If both belong to one thing, I hope you will send them both to one place. Col. Austen. I thought you were bringing things of the same nature to the same trial. I must take leave not to answer mens laughing, till I am answered in another nature. The Speaker. They are several crimes, if they are crimes, and severally to be answered. When you call for it, it shall be ready. Sir Tho. Clarges. You have read that Paper; one and the other paper are gone all over England, not only into Cornwall. It is injurious both to king and subject; but since you have read that paper, and it appears so notoriously scandalous, you ought to pass your censure, and declare the paper scandalous, and prejudicial to the peace of the nation.' ad aulam, nec ad populum, but ad liberandum animum meum. Sir Christ. Musgrave. Hearing my name, in that Libel, calls me not up. I am the same without doors as within. Seeing there are reflections upon the king, you must pass judgment upon it. The other Libel relates to the constitution of the house; since it is come before you, you must pass judgment upon this paper before you. It is a violation of the constitution of parliament. If persons be exposed for their votes here, it may work upon the mobile. (I fear it not, I am not considerable). First, take care to support the government, and vote this Libel, A high reflection on his majesty and his government,' and pass a judgment next by itself. Mr. Harbord. A libel was seized by Mr. Frazer, and brought into council. The tenderess of the king was such, when it was brought before him, that the person was warned of it at his peril, if he did disperse any more. Though his be a great fault, I know not how things may revive. I would condemn this Paper, and so let us be at peace with one another. Sir Tho. Lee. The steps of this matter were thus. Some days since, a gentleman was accused of dispersing this Paper, who was absent, and a day given him to appear. When that day came, the gentleman was not so early here at his time; afterwards he came, but you deferred it; you then thought fit to adjourn it. The gentleman is now in the house; you must next have him heard, and then he ought to withdraw, he cannot be here; and you then declare the punishment, when you see how far your member is guilty; and then proceed to censure of the Libel. This before you is but a copy of the print, and the person attesting it is not brought to the bar. Sir Edw. Seymour. Harbord has given you an account of what was done in council; I believe he has licence from the king to do it, or else he has broken his oath. When Mr. Rowe had dispersed these libels in great numbers, and with malice prepense, he said he would print them. If you take no care of this, in the next election of a parliament, you will have enough to do. Mr. Harbord. I understand my oath as a privy-counsellor, and will keep it. In what I informed you, counsel was heard on both sides, and the thing was public. Sir John Guise. I would have us all agree in moderation: it has been a consideration that you should not proceed farther for fear of sharpening humours. If those arguments have prevailed on you then, why not now? I would know whether every county, and every Sir John Lowther. I am one of those that borough in England, has not had hard words are of opinion, that there is nothing more danand sharp censures. I know no country (but gerous, nor of worse consequence, than libels. our own) that has had these excesses; re- As to this, of dispersing libels at elections, we proached with being commonwealth's men, and need nothing now to divide, we have enemies no Church of England men; these are noto-enough abroad. I believe, if there be a scrurious before you in the printed papers dispersed. I would have equal justice done in these things. If you think it convenient, go on. I have something to say of other men, and I am sure nobody can say any thing of me. Mr. Godolphin. I never gave my vote nec See Ralph, vol. ii. P. 189. tiny into this matter, it may tend to unite us. There is no proof, who penned this Libel, or who dispersed it, nor does it appear, that this is the libel he did disperse. I know not how a court of judicature will take this libel to be proved. I desire the gentleman may be repri manded; but not to widen the gap, I move, that gentlemen defer the business till some other time, and put off the examination till another day. If you hear them all, you will employ your time in little else. I would adjourn it to this day fortnight. Col. Austen. I am no great lawyer, but I think the fact proves the malice, not the malice, the fact. It must be malice prepense, let the person be who it will. Whatever is said on the one side, will be proved on the other. I am as willing to throw them both away as any body. Sir Edw. Seymour. I have not told you one word of my own knowledge of this libel; but Mr. Rowe is not to answer his accusation till it be proved. To vote this a libel, and to let Rowe sit to vote whether it be a libel or not, you will have work enough. If you go on, let witnesses be called in. Here is a copy of a printed Paper; the information is, that Mr. Rowe had dispersed copies of it, and was sorry he had no more; and, before it was printed, Rowe said he would print it.' I would not bring a trifle before you; this is worthy your censure; if not, you will have enough. The Speaker. This is a copy of a printed Paper, and the attestation of the mayor. Sir Tho. Littleton. It does not appear to me to be so proved, as to put a question upon it. It may be proved, and I believe it as much a libel as any body, but it spread very universally. You may go upon both the libels, but I believe, in your prudence, you will lay them aside. At the beginning of this session, two were produced, and both referred to the consideration of a committee, but you have had no report; perhaps the committee in prudence would not do it. I hope the prudence of the house will lay this aside. Sir John Bowles. I wonder Seymour should call this copy an original. Sir Edw. Seymour. It was this very Paper that was dispersed. I confess myself a very ill copy, and full of errata;' but I take Bowles to be a great original. Sir John Bowles. I know not why he should call me an original;' but I would not go after his original. Col. Birch. I know not how many of these may come before you. Since the wisdom of the house sees that this tends to division, pray adjourn the house, as has been moved. Sir Tho. Clarges. You say the Paper reflects upon the king and the government.' A gentleman tells you, this very Paper was dispersed.' You must propose a question before you adjourn this debate. No expedient can be, but sending for the witnesses at the door. Mr. Hampden. I see the debate is like to beget great heats. I have a libel of infamous queries charged upon the other gentleman. I hope all will be called scandalous papers, as well as others. A thing read in a noise cannot be strictly examined and censured. To say one numerical Paper was dispersed, this copy, or original, of many printed, dispersed-I would consider whether this is to be cooled, or thoroughly prosecuted. The issue of all de bates is a question, and put it, Whether you will adjourn the debate. Sir Thomas Clarges. I would know upon what question the debate is adjourned? I will do my duty, let gentlemen be as ridiculous as they please (some laughing). First, state the question, what shall be on the Journal. Will you make no censure upon it? Collect the question upon the Paper, and then put the question for adjourning. Mr. Finch. I speak to wording of the question. If the house be inclinable to adjourn the debate, I would never have the question worded so, as if possible the house did ever consider this to be a Libel. If the question be to adjourn, I offer it thus; That a debate arising about a scandalous Libel, the house adjourned the debate of it to such a time.' Sir Christ. Musgrave. I take this to be a Libel upon the government, and if witnesses be at the door, and you will not hear them, to say you will adjourn the debate, is to call for it when the witnesses are gone, after long attendance. When our duty to the king, and the honour of the house are concerned, it is agreeable to justice that you deny no man. Col. Austen. Several things must be debated before this comes to issue. I can never think a deliberate thing to be a reflection upon the house; therefore adjourn the debate. Lord Eland.* I think the kindest motion for Rowe is, to call the witnesses in; either the thing will be justified, or your member sorry for the accusation. Sir Tho. Lee. The first question is, Whether you will adjourn the debate, but not next, calling them in; you must not be starved because witnesses are at the door. To order only I speak. I would plainly understand-I am for vindicating the king's honour, for if this had touched the king's honour, some of his officers would have taken notice of it. Stafford's was a treasonable Paper, from a man under some distraction, and you discharged him. Some things in themselves are better laid asleep, and this is one. The question being put, That the debate be adjourned, it passed in the negative, 180 to 156. Resolved, "That the Paper entitled, &c. (as above) is a false and scandalous Libel, reflecting upon their majesties and their government, and the rights and privileges of parliament." Debate on the Regency Bill.] May 5. The house went into a grand committee, on the Regency Bill. Sir Charles Sedley. The objection the other day was, That all Commissions determine, if you lodge the power in the queen, in the king's absence.' If he be in Ireland, he is not here. I cannot see any hurt for so short a time, by authority of the king, and consent of parlia ment. * Son of the marquis of Halifax, to which title he succeeded on his father's death in 1694, and died in 1699. Sir Wm. Whitlock. I find that every body believes the king intends to go into Ireland, and that it is necessary the administration power, in his absence, be in the queen. The objection made is, the danger of the trust in the queen; but you may trust either, or both, in the power you have conferred upon them. If the parliament have trusted them with the powers, you may trust them with the administration of them. Leave out the words, and territories.' The king may by act of parliament exercise regal power in Ireland, and the queen in England; and when the king returns, he returns to the former administration. : Serjeant Maynard. The reasons of this Bill are, That the king going out of England into Ireland, there is a necessity somebody should do what the king should do here.' You are moved, That the administration should be put into the queen, but not out of the king, to advise in the politics.' It is well known, what turbulences and great disturbances there are in Scotland, and as much in Ireland, if what I hear be true: with whom have we war? It is said with king James, but it is with France. King James is but his tool; with whose money, whose advice, and whose men? All French; can any man be so simple as to set up any body, but himself? Consider, if this Army prevail, it is not king James, but the French, that will have these kingdoms. Will the French king, out of kindness and compliment, part with three kingdoms conquered with his own money? I would have the Bishops consider (where so much right is laid) either the new ones, or those that are out; and I would have the Popish lords consider, who live quietly will the French king let the English have great estates here, when he can have the French? Will the French king, in compliment to the Papists of England, put by his own subjects? Will you have the same Council about the queen, when the king is gone, that never could find out where our miscarriage lay? Londonderry was not relieved, the provisions were all corrupted; we sent to know, from whence this came: Shales was found out, but we could never know who recommended him to that service; and from whence comes this neglect? From those that acted or advised? I propound this, not only to the queen's councils, but in the government. Unless he would change his religion, a great man, the duke of Schomberg, must have no employment in France. We must give our souls to him, and he will take our estates. I did not say we should name a Council to the queen. The administration is in the queen, but it is the Council that docs all. Those that would keep king William out, and keep king James in, now king William is in, it is strange they should be trusted. The alterations in the Militia of London have ever influenced England, and we give the king Thanks for the best put out, and the worst put in! Confirmations of the Liberties of the Church to the Church, and we apply them to the churchmen, Sir Tho. Lee. If you will have only the counsellors now well spoken of, and never ill spoken of, you will have but a few of either. I am afraid, if a man pass away a manor, and the appurtenances are left out, the chancery will judge it for the purchaser; and Ireland will go away with England. Regal power, by serjeant Wogan, is distinguished from executive. I am afraid I cannot distinguish them, to make them separable and different. To turn regal power out of possession, I am not very fond of it in parliament. Let men tell plainly their minds, whether they will leave him no power, or leave him only king of Ireland. Such power of disposition of the crown being taken up by the people, I think this Bill necessary, and I hope the long robe will find out such a way to invest the queen with the Regency, as not to dispossess the king. I would have it plainly understood, whether, whilst the king is in Ireland, he loses the executive power in England, and whether he is not less than he is already. Sir Tho. Clarges. I do not undertake to be wise enough to solve all these doubts; it is plain we are in great exigency, and the king, as now advised, resolves to go for Ireland. I would not be hasty in advising. I would not raise such a heap of difficulties, that we know not which way to turn. The French king has committed such great cruelties; scarce such since the Roman persecutions. I would rather endure any thing than that. Is Ireland in such a condition, that his presence is so necessary there, or Ireland will be lost? What if the king does not go, and we advise him to it, and Ireland be lost, and he tells you, By your advice I did not go! You are moved to give the queen more power, the administration jointly in king and queen, and to the queen in the king's absence; shall the queen's hand be enough to warrants in the king's absence? There are perplexities every way, all will be of no effect. If the king goes not out of England, or if the king goes into Scotland, it relates to both purposes. I wish we apply the debates to amend the Bill as well as we can; if he does go, that he may go. I see no great hurt of adding Administration' to it. Something must be done, that the king may be in a possibility of saving that kingdom. Sir Christ. Musgrave. You have a difficult thing before you. Our duty is to make the Bill so as to reduce it to the service of the king and kingdom. I suppose it is not any body's design to divest the king of any part of his royal power, but to consider, how to let the queen into some of that regal power, now in the king; and I should be glad to be informed, how to let the queen into more than she has already. The sole executive power is now vested in the king. I would not take away power out of the king; but, suppose you should say, whatever order shall be sent by the king, out of Ireland, shall be obligatory here. Mr. Foley. To prevent two co-ordinate powers, let the queen have the administration |