part, to keep that kingdom as far as it is possible from being burdensome to England for the future. I do not doubt but you are all sensible, that it will be necessary we should have as strong a Fleet next year, and as early at sea, as we had this summer; and I must tell you, that the great power of France will as necessarily require that we should maintain a very considerable army, ready, upon all occasions, not only to defend ourselves from any insult, but also to annoy the common enemy where it may be most sensible to them; and I do not see how it is possible to do this with less than 65,000 men.-I shall only add, that by the vigour and dispatch of your counsels, and assistance to me in this session of parliament, you have now an opportunity in your hands (which, if neglected, you can never reasonably hope to see again) not only to establish the future quiet and prosperity of these kingdoms, but the peace and security of all Europe." Both houses congratulated his majesty upon his safe and happy return after so many hazards to which he had exposed his person, and upon the success of his arms in the Reduction of Ireland; and at the same time they assured him, they would assist him to the utmost of their power, in carrying on a vigorous War against France, in order to procure an honourable and lasting peace to his own dominions, and to secure his neighbours from the injuries and invasions of the Common Oppressor. They also addressed the Queen, and acknowledged her prudent Administration of the Government, during his majesty's absence. Oct. 28. A Bill was brought into the commons, For Abrogating the former Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy in Ireland; and appointing the Oaths to king William and queen Mary which, after two or three conferences between the lords and commons, passed both houses, and had the royal assent. soever, the king had commanded him to tell this house, That he will keep no more of them in his own dominions than what he shall judge absolutely necessary for their security, and the rest he will transport beyond seas, in order to annoy the common enemy, where it may be most sensible to them."-And sir Rd. Ouslow presented to the house an Estimate of the Charge of the Navy, for the year 1692, amounting in the whole to 30,000 men, aud 1,855,0547. charge, both which Estimates were referred to the committee of supply. Debate on the Supply.] The house went into a grand committee on the Supply. Mr. Foley. The government, for three years past, eleven millions! Never so much was paid to the Navy and Army; and I know not why a third part of eleven millions may not carry on the war for one year. A great deal has been anticipated of what we have given already. Col. Austin. I believe all are unanimous, that a Fleet is necessary. It is a great charge, and necessary it should be so. You found the effects of the Fleet short last year. These 30,000 men laid at a medium, I should be willing to hear any thing to lessen the charge. Sir Tho. Clarges. None in this house but think a good Fleet necessary. You had a good fleet last year, and if they had had courage, you might have had a better account from then, having more men, tonnage, and guns, than heretofore; and they had not gone before the enemy last year. We are trusted by the people, and are not to make profusion of their treasure. When we had war with France and Holland, we had not 30, nor 25,000 men : Must all the Fleet be seamen ? You will not put your landmen, I hope, only to mount the guards. It is fit they should go upon the fleet. I move, That the committee may examine these particulars. We have been used to these things, and must not lump these things, but examine them. We have flag-ships more than the establishment. When we know more of these things, we may do all that is needful, but nothing that is unnecessary. The Thanks of the Commons given to General Ginkle.] The commons ordered the lord Castleton, sir Henry Goodrick, and five more of their Members, to attend general Ginkle, with their Thanks to him and his Officers, for the Sir Christ. Musgrave. You have a great great services they had done towards the Re- matter before you, and it deserves great considuction of Ireland. To which the baron re-deration; and yet it is endeavoured to have plied, "I acknowledge this distinguishing ho- little time for so great a work. You are denour done me by the house of commons, and sired to read over the Particulars, head by value it above a triumph. The success of their head, and grant it. Has the Estimate the semajesties arms in Ireland, was owing chiefly to veral Rates of Ships? Without that, we can the valour of the English; and I will take care make no computation of men. Every body is to communicate the Vote of the House to the for having a Fleet, but is it sufficient that the Officers that served in Ireland, and always en- admiralty do give you in 30,000 men, for you deavour the prosperity of their majesties and to give money upon it? I find intelligence their governinent." better at the latter end of the year than the middle: I would know how the French ships came out of Dunkirkt? In the Estimate of 4l. 5 s. a head per month that will require great Estimates for the Year 1692.] Nov. 9. The earl of Ranelagh, by his majesty's order, delivered in a List of what Forces the king thought necessary for the next year's service, amounting in the whole, horse, dragoons, and foot, to 64,924 men, and 2,255,6717. 15s. 2 d. annual pay; and acquainted the house, "That how these Forces should be distributed, his majesty had not yet resolved; but that, how * Neither the Rates, nor Numbers, of the Ships, were mentioned in the Estimate. To this, admiral Russel answered, "That the Dutch refused to go to the blockade of Dunkirk, till their compliment came up." time how to be made out. When that is given in, I suppose the ships will be in the condition they were in, except in powder and shot; and of that, I suppose, not much spent ; and that must make that out still of the 41. 5s. per head. It was told us, The Vote of 30 ships would give great credit;' but is the naval force to be kept all the year round? We were told they were to be laid up, and now we must pay them as if abroad-And it ought not to be said, That, if we do not give speedily, we obstruct the king's business.' Sir John Lowther I do not remember that I said those things I am charged with, of obstructing the king's business, &c.' I am far from imposing. I desire to have your justice in this. Sir Christ. Musgrave. Lowther said, 'If we delay, and if the Supply be not immediately considered, the barriers of Flanders may be lost. But if consideration will produce such fatal effects, then you may vote it immediately. Sir Tho. Clarges. I think it is for the king's service, and not delay, to examine things. All the equipage for Ireland, men, and what beJongs to the army, may be done for 450,000 7. At first sight, it scems to me 31. a man will do. We were not out last year till the 20th of June, and if not sooner out next year, we are miserable. In April, we were told they were all ready. I hope we may advise, whether they are too many, or too few. I know not any thing of Barriers; but pray let us be strong at sea; but not hand over head to do things. Col. Austen. As for the French ships going out of Dunkirk, a man that has not heard of it, lives very privately. Upon enquiry, you will find they came out on the Dutch side, and not on ours. Sir Ch. Sedley. If one member sits in the house in his buff-coat, and another in his shirt, one will be sweltered, whilst the other's teeth chatter in his head. A Committee was appointed to inspect the Estimate of the Navy for the year 1692, and to report their opinion. Enquiries into the Conduct of the Fleet.] Nov. 12. The commons were acquainted, that Mr. Bridges, a member of their house, could give an Account of an information given him by a captain in their majesties Fleet, that sir Ralph Delaval, one of the admirals, had lately taken a French boat going for Ireland, with Papers of dangerous consequence to the government. The house ordered Mr. Bridges to name the person, and he named the lord Danby, son to the marquis of Carmarthen. A conference was then desired with the lords upon matters relating to the safety of the kingdom, but the business did not turn out as was ex-. pected. There was no Copy of a Letter from the earl of Nottingham to sir Ralph Delaval, in the intercepted Packet, only a Letter from the earl to sir Ralph, desiring him to send up that packet; so that storm blew over. The commons regulated the Payment of the Forces by effective musters; and enquired into the MisVOL. V. carriages of the Fleet, the admiralty papers being laid before them, by two of the commissioners, admiral Russel and the lord Falkland; but these Regulations and enquiries raised more than answered the expectations of the people, and were afterwards thought to be intended rather to delay matters than amend them. Dr. Welwood reprimanded by the House.] About the same time, Dr. Welwood, a physician, noted afterwards for his Memoirs, published a Weekly P per, entitled, Mercurius Reformatus,' but his zeal having carried him farther than was agreeable to the house, on whose proceedings he seemed to reflect, he was ordered into custody of the serjeant at arms, and reprimanded by the Speaker, when he was discharged. Debate on the Bill for regulating Trials, in Cases of Treason.] Nov. 18. An ingrossed Bill for regulating of Trials in Cases of Treason, was read the third time. Sir Charles Sedley. Good kings, good lawvers, and good judges, are perishable cominodities. If the duke of Somerset, at his Tryal, had had counsel, he had not omitted demanding the benefit of clergy. An impotent, lame, or aged man, by law, had his champion. Goodenough was one that Cornish hated; and it was not probable he would commit a secret to him. Cornish had Evidence for him, but not to be believed, because not upon oath; but I find sheriffs and juries are not provided for in the Bill. Mr. Finch. If any thing in this bill be for weakening the government, I am against it; but if not, I am for it. What is there in this, that makes it easier to commit Treason, or less tryable, than before? all that is desired, is a just and lawful defence, at a man's trial. But will you say, the government is weakened, because a man has an easier way of defence? What are the parts of the bill that are new? a copy of the indictment, and witnesses for the prisoner upon oath, and counsel, that's new, and no overt act to be given in evidence, but what is laid in the indictment. Now, in all this, where is the mischief to the government? Shall it be said, that a man may commit Treason safely, with a copy of his indictment, and witnesses sworn to tell truth? there must be proofs of the overt act, and one is sufficient, and he prepares accordingly. As, a consultation to destroy the king in such a place, and a man proves himself in another place, and must recollect himself where he was, and have witnesses to prove it: this has been so practised. This provides (that the prisoner may be enabled to make his just defence) that he shall know all the facts charged against him. Suppose but one overt act, that must be laid; and it does not discover the king's evidence; where is then the objection, that two overt acts be laid? this is far froin giving protection for Treason; but gives opportunity to the prisoner to make a fair defence. If a man be witness to the Treason, he is so sti!!, though witness to the confession. I would have no man start that objection, That 2 U less than two witnesses is sufficient.' But there | This bill extends to clipping and coining, and was a time when one witness was allowed, by all the lesser parts of treason. The copy of no less a man than judge Popham, in sir Walter | the indictment can be of no other use than to Raleigh's case. You take not away his con- inform the prisoner of the matter. 'Tis to fession: The words of the Bill are, Unless he enable him himself, but not to help the person confesses in open court, &c.' All you do pro- by the slip of a word, or a letter, to evade trial. vide, is, that there shall be two witnesses; but As for being allowed counsel, in every treason, if he confess in open court, and the court re- it would make trials long; and all mens cases cord the same, that alters the question. Stand- are alike, when dressed up by art of counsel. ing mute is a confession of the fact, though the To the objection of evidence, two witnesses, prisoner forfeits not his lands, nor attaints his or confession of the party, &c. perhaps he may blood. But to throw this bill out, gentlemen have confessed the treason before a hundred must say, there is not one good thing in it. people. If this be the evidence, you take from There is nothing made new in the bill, that the crown; he may brag of the treason before makes an impunity for treason. That the copy a thousand people, and go unpunished. Here of the indictment is to be delivered to the pri- in London, when the term comes at Essoign soner, in ten days, if he requires it; it is good day, the sessions cease, and the prisoner canin Middlesex, if he requires it, but not in coun- not be tried, unless by a new commission ; and try assizes, which cannot stay so long. If a man counsel must attend the trial of the meanest be to be tried for Treason, and the safety of clipper or coiner. All criminal justice is best the government be concerned, there may be a done flagrante crimine. If a man clip or coin, special commission of Oyer and Terminer; but what will his repentance signify, in three years, it is said, That is to bring a farther charge when all the money is spoiled? This bill does upon the government;' but is there any com- so much weaken the hands of the government, parison, that a man must lose his life for a few that it ought not to pass. If you resolve that days stay? But a commission of Oyer and Ter- the bill shall be rejected, no part of it can be miner solves all objections of the safety of the brought in again this session. I would preserve government. The limitation of the time, for any part of the bill that is useful, but not pass three years, cannot enervate the government; it as it is.-The Bill was then passed. 'tis hardly possible to imagine, but that, in three years, the crime may be detected and prosecured, or the person repent and be pardoned. Where then is the safety of the government con- Nov. 19. The earl of Ranelagh, by his macerned? 'Tis impossible he should not be de-jesty's order, laid before the house a distributected in that time, or the thing repented of, tion of the Land-Forces, mentioned in the Esand no ill effect of it. This may take away the timate, viz. 10,916 men in England, 12,960 venom that some persons may fall under after in Ireland, 2,038 in Scotland, and 960 in the twenty years, and rake up a charge against a West Indies. Total 26,874, Remain to be person. transported beyond seas 38,050. Debate on the Supply.] The house went into a grand committee on the Supply. Mr. Attorney Treby. Whatsoever is useful to the subject, and does not bring insecurity to the government, I am for. The lives of men are precious, but the lives of the king and queen are as precious, in which all our lives are bound up; and it deserves the highest consideration. This Bill was ushered in by reason of the hardship in the late times, in Trials for Treason; but I see little in the bill to obviate those miscarriages. The fault was not in the law, but in the men. When judges determine the law, in one case, one way, and in another | case, another way, the judges convict themselves. In Fitzharris's Case, they were of opinion, That he ought to be tried by freeholders. In col. Sidney's Case, all the judges of England resolved, That the law was not so.' If so, the greatest preservation of the people is to preserve us out of the hands of such judges, which I hope the Bill of Rights does sufficiently provide for. The best way is to preserve their present majesties, who, I hope, will never permit such men to come into places of judicature. In the preamble of the Bill, it is, That the prosecution of treason may be justly tried;' it seems to me improper. In treason, the blood of the heir is not corrupted; but he cannot derive from that ancestor. This day, 1,575,890l. was granted for the Charge of the Navy, including the Ordnance, for the year 1692. Mr. Foley. Consider what our state is, besides Land-Tax, and Excise, &c. If you find yourself at a loss for Money, and must anticipate, you must double your land-tax, and at last pay balf your revenue. I see not why we should raise so many men, and maintain them. You are told, That it is to make an end of the war at once.' But suppose the French beat us; and what hopes have we, if the Fleet be in no better hands?—I am of opinion, that a lesser number of men may serve for a diversion. I fear things are not rightly represented to the king. Suppose we land, and take a French port, and then you engage for ever after to keep footing in France. In the Rolls we find, that, when Money was asked by Edw. 3, to maintain what he had conquered in France, the parliament answered, They were concerned only to keep England, and not what was conquered in France.' Sir John Guisc. Foley said, 'He could not consent to the number of men proposed;' but he tells you not why. I suppose we are to defend ourselves by sea. You have two thirds of the Fleet, and the Dutch one third. strength is taken away; and how can they supply you? If you did so distress the French last year, much more now, as you can draw your men out of Ireland. Have you brought France to this pitch, and will you leave it? When I voted a War against France, I was in earnest, and I have not abated since this war. I see not that any body wears less, spends less, or does less, than before. It is not only honourable, but safe, for you to continue your number of men. Sir John Thompson. I know not for others, what they have done; but I have found decay in my little income; and we have every where complaints. If we consider what merchants have lost, and money carried abroad, and that foreign merchants carry out your freight, I think it is a sign we are poor. I would have this so carried on, as to have something to give when we come again. I may make a conclusion, though not able to make premises, in the war. If we cannot force France to a battle, you will do as little next year, as you have done in this. In the several Heads given you in, there are 12,000 men for Ireland, and yet you have been told, That it would support itself;' and 10,000 men for England, and we had not near so many when the French invaded us. Really I am afraid of a Standing Army. We have the skeleton, though not the body, of the forces. I look upon this war with France to be merely a colour. Pray put the thing Head by Head. 6 Sir Christ. Musgrave. You have several Heads before you, and proper, as has been moved. It is an irregular motion, To put it Head by Head.' If you vote, That 65,000 men are to be the number,' then you bring Scotland and Ireland on your head. Pray therefore put the first general question for England.' Sir Tho. Clarges. You have been told of the confederacy, That you might lay hold of this opportunity to keep them.' I was, and am, of opinion, that our coming into the Alliance is a greater strength to the confederates, than any force by land, and far more able to distress France, and that the most natural way is to continue the war, where he grows so great, by sea; if we would make ourselves masters of America, and recover what we have lost there. As we are an island, we are to consider, that, if the French have all the seventeen provinces, and we are superior at sea, we may still be safe, and for what belongs to us. But in the aid required of us, though Ireland is reduced, yet there is but an abatement of 4000 men. To prosecute the War totis viribus must be understood. When in parliament, former taxes were the sparable part of our estates, if we are unsuccessful in this war, what will become of us? I desire that we may manage this war with as much frugality as we can. I am sure that 16,000 men did recover Ireland formerly, Sir Robert Howard. First we are told, We are not able.' If so, then there is an end; but as to that, I hope we are able. Next we are | told of an Army to enslave us ;' but no danger of that under a king that has courage. In the former reign, there were great preparations against France, and nothing done. I hope to see an English army act by itself, and the king at the head of it. If your Navy be strong, and in conjunction with the Dutch, you will provoke the French to come out with their fleet, and you may land where you please. The king is clear in all points with you; there is no mistrust in him; and therefore I would leave it to the king's judgment, for the number for beyond sea; and you may, I hope, from hence send all the provisions. 6 Sir Tho. Clarges. That the king is a valiant and wise prince, all agree; but he acts by advice; and so it is sent to us; but if we do not come up to the desires of such men, then we are told, We are against the king, and hinder his business.' I hope we shall hear no more of that; we are all here to advise what is to be done; but this great sum demanded for those men is half the current cash of the nation, and if we maintain an army of 40,000 men abroad, I fear we shall have none left for common defence another year. Mr. Hampden. I have heard reflections for merly, but if a gentleman speaks in cominendation of his prince, it is no reproach upon a man, who, in his speech, says nothing of it; but I do think a Standing Army is dangerous. But when it is said, "The matter of the war with France is but a colour.' Do you think France will use you well that you may put yourselves into his hands? I know, that in my country the middle sort are willing to carry on the war; but if I hear or see nothing against this number of men, if you have hopes that the lion is not so fierce as he is painted, I hope you will agree to the number. Sir John Thompson. As for the descent upon France, I have heard of orders for 16,000 horse and foot to march through the heart of England. 'A colour,' is the appearance of an argument, with really no force in it; a figure: No man is to be offended at the commendation of the king, but when an argument has not force in itself to force its way, that calls me up. Mr. Attorney Treby. This discourse is of so great a nature that all gentlemen engage in it. It propounds to dissect the articles, and take them Head by Head. I am against it. When you had the List of the Fleet, you did it by the lump, and I think there is the same reas son now. I take all to be one Army, 38,000 beyond sea, and so the less need here. No part of your freedom ought to be taken away. Freedom of debate here is as tender as the apple of the eye, and as general all over England. You come here with local wisdom,' as lord Bacon calls it. I speak a positive truth, when I say, the king is a great captain. But to clear some objections to the king's Speech. If the Confederacy break, the Germans disband, and the Dutch make peace, and truckle under France, then you cannot possibly he defended without a Standing Army, and standing be at. Fleet too. The naval force, all the world over, is in the French hands, and yours, and how far may the Dutch, in conjunction with the French, (and we alone,) undermine us? The war was your advice for trade, and you resolve to go through with the war, to secure your trade, that it may be no longer in his power to disturb England; and that is the end you would The question is then, Whether you can do this without such a force as this? I would answer one objection, viz. Not to give such a Supply as to conquer France.' I know not how we shall conquer Paris, but I would not have France conquer us. If we cannot carry this on, we have nothing left but prayers | and tears; but I hope we shall not come to that. Can we think that France will use us better than his protestant subjects? Consider what we have promised the king: I hope we shall make it good. We have not, for a long time, had such a warlike prince as this. All this points to us what the king has said, If this opportunity be lost, we shall never have the same again.' I would not go through it by halves, but have such a force as the king may confide in. By doing it at one stroke, I hope we shall be secured from all this. It was said by a gentleman, That the French king knows what we do.' I believe it; I wish he did not know what we say. I do not doubt of what force the king has proposed. Sir Christ. Musgrave. The proper question is, Whether to proceed Head by Head? Then consider, when you have voted 65,000 men, you engage to make that number good. If so, we must have the charge of all Ireland, and all Scotland. If so, to what purpose will you vote them, if you are not interested to maintain them? You are told, That if you vote them not, the allies will go off;' but last year they went in with their quota. It was never advised to keep our quota, and to go into France with a separate army. Possibly we may agree one Head, and not come up to the other. A general question takes away all liberty of debate. The Fleet to make a descent into France, is quite a different Head from the Army. Sir Thomas Clarges. By the motion of a general question, our liberty to advise is taken away. You are told (by Capel) That queen Elizabeth was not limited; there was not a number of men named, but the parliament gave two subsidies, and four fifteenths, and left it to her judgment, and when no extraordinary use was made of it, it returned to the subject again. They that give a negative, are not against an army, but what numbers they shall be limited to; proposing men differs little from money. It will look like a parliament of Paris; the king to propose, and they to verify it. Nothing of Scotland and Ireland is proposed. Let us not have sums and money, but Heads, proposed to us. Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this committee, That an Army of 64,924 men is necessary for the service of the year 1692, in order to the securing the peace of the kingdom, and the carrying on a vigorous War against France." Which was agreed to by the house. Nov. 25. The house went again into a grand committee on the Supply. Sir Tho. Clarges. I find all Establishments, since the Change, are a third part more than formerly. This Estimate of 65,000 men is sufficient for 200,000 men. This war, I am afraid, will not be done in a year; therefore I would do it so as our estates may bear. Mr. Hampden. This is most proper, when you come to particular parts of the Army. You may address the king to apply as much as may be of the Civil List to maintain the Army. Sir Tho. Clarges. I know not the consequence of such an Address to the king in matter of money. I propose that the question may be That officers and soldiers may be included in this List.' Sir John Lowther. The general-officers advised a greater number than the king has proposed, which are so many men, besides officers. Sir Tho. Clarges. If 16,000 men in Ireland be commanded by Protestants, they will make 35,000. They are now warlike, and at the battle of Aghrim they were not above 18,000 men. A gentleman that knows well, a commissioner of the revenue in Ireland, said, 'That 6,000 men were sufficient to be sent into Ireland.' I would not have 36,000 men named, and not above 20,000 paid. I hope we shall have effective men, and no collusion nor deceit. Till the Militia were armed, there was no con. siderable service done in Ireland. Sir John Lowther. I hope the number of men will not always be necessary, only for the present, since the expence, I hope, will be but for one year. I hope this exception, by a side-wind, will not cut off your intention. Sir John Thompson. I wonder what Lowther means by A side-wind;' if there be any, it is the supernumerary forces. We voted but 65,000 men; if the Officers came to more, it was not in the Vote; and I appeal to the house, if they did not mean Officers? It could never be thought that you meant by your Vote an Army of men without officers. Sir John Lowther. If that Vote did include officers, you are in the right. For ought I know, this cuts off several thousands of men ;— and officers not being included, your Vote stands Sir Tho. Clarges. You have resolved upon 64,500 men. We went not Head by Head on the Estimate, but lumped it, and I thought not fit to ravel into that. Whatever was intended by any private person, who brought the Paper of the Numbers, &c. it was the Resolution of the house such an Army; and I am a little | scandalized at this: I know not by what figure in rhetoric, Men' is without Officers.' You may raise the mob for an army, at that rate. The reason why I put in Officers now, is, because the house was deceived, for we find in the Accounts only for private men. By your Vote you may determine this matter. |