When things are gone so high, it becomes your Mr. Smith. I shall speak only to the Sea care that no corner may be to have recourse to. No man but will allow that it has been ill maI know that there are no fallings out among naged. The Admiralty apply themselves to it friends, but there are some mistakes; when as much as they are capable; I wish their knowfound out they are the easier brought together. ledge was as much as their fidelity; but if they Therefore my thoughts on this matter are, that were ever so knowing, I fear they have no power. you vote, That it is the judgment of this Coin-Orders are sent to the Fleet from time to time, mittee that two or three be appointed to wait on the Queen to know the cause of this difference, and to receive an answer from the Princess; and I hope there may be some fruit of it The king ventures bis person and life-solved by a Council of War to be impracticable, Consider, when he is abroad, you cannot have that success in the government, in going and coming for orders-Some orders must be too late. The queen has done all things, in the king's absence, like a prudent woman, and a good wife, but if she thinks fit to send for orders from the king, when beyond sea, before any resolution be taken; I hope for the future you will take care of it.

and they have no knowledge of them: they give Commissions to the Admiral, and he is to have Instructions elsewhere. I would enquire how it should happen, that when a descent was reyet orders were given to pursue it, and your ships that were foul to lie by, and no orders to clean them, and that those that were clean had no orders to go out? You are informed of Salvage, for reward of re-taking ships, detained, and the men forced to plunder neutral ships. The Salvage paid into the Admiralty. I move, That all Orders for the Fleet may be hereafter from the Admiralty, and persous employed in it proper for the employment.

Sir Richard Onslow.* I am improper to speak on this subject, being one of the Commissioners of the Admiralty. I have always observed, that gentlenen are tender of the honour of gentlemen. I believe that, notwithstanding the report that has been made, the Admiralty can justify themselves. All the complaint of the loss of 1,500 ships comes from the insurers principally, and not from the merchants. Pray proceed, head by head, on the Report, and let the Admiralty answer it.

Mr. Harley. I cannot pretend to add to what has been said, but I hope there may be some fruit of it. It is proper to proceed by steps regularly. I would first take into consideration the Sea, and what condition you are in there. The Sea must be our first care, or else we are all prisoners to our island. We have had a glorious victory at sea; though we have had the honour of it, your enemy has had the profit, by taking our Merchant ships. Edward 3, had the greatest advantage in his invasion of France, by being master at sea, where he had a glorious wound-The king tells you Col. Granville. I am obliged to give you an the danger--and we are a miserable nation, if account of the Report. Since I am up, I will the sword be drawn amongst us. The pretence say something to your question. It is no wonof a descent into France has been a topic used der that of late we have been so unfortunate; to get money from you. I am sorry to be told, since unsuccessfulness is the natural product of that the orders of it were not practicable; if unskilfulness. The work is too great for the not, why were they given? If practicable, why Commissioners of the Admiralty. We had the not followed? I hope the king will not consult good fortune to beat the French Fleet, and how empiricks, but take the Advice of this house. came that to be unsuccessful? The fault was not at sea, it must be here; we were never inore pestered with privateers; their trust is too great for the commissioners experience. It is a great while since the battle at sea, and sir John Ashby has not been examined any where about the prosecution of the Battle, but at your bar, and he must, with all that guilt upon him, be still trusted. I have all respect for the Commissioners of the Admiralty, that they are very well intentioned for the government, but I should be glad that trust was put into the hands of those that have experience. I believe they think not themselves skilful admirals; it seems the government does not think so, for the Fleet must have such orders as the queen shall think

Mr. Waller. I move, That you would take one Head after another. The motion was made to put the Admiralty into hands that may be trusted, of skill and fidelity.

pleased about herself. And when the queen insisted on the thing, she retired from the court. There were, no doubt, ill offices done on all hands, as there were some that pressed the princess to submit to the queen, as well as others who pressed the queen to pass it over: but without effect. Both had engaged themselves before they had well reflected on the consequences of such a breach; and the matter went so far, that the queen ordered that no public honours should be shewed the princess, besides many other lesser matters; and the breach continued to the end of her life. The enemies of the government tried what could be made of this, to create distractions among us; but the princess gave no encouragement to them, so that this misunderstanding had no other effect, but that it gave enemies much illnatured joy, and a secret spiteful diversion." Burnet,

*Speaker of the House of Commons in 1698, and in the reign of George 1, one of the Lords of the Treasury, and Chancellor of the Exchequer. On resigning those Offices in 1715, he was made one of the Tellers of the Exchequer during life. In 1716, he was created lord Onslow, and died the year after. He was uncle to the celebrated Arthur Onslow, who was Speaker during the whole of the reign of George 2.

fit. If they must not be trusted with orders, I think them not fit for this great affair.

Lord Falkland. That which seems to be the ground of the question is, the Report made from the Committee. I may say that report was too sudden, and there are material omissions in that report. A great part of your losses proceeds from getting protections, and they get insurance, and so venture out, and are taken; this ought to have been maturely examined, when, where, and how lost. Unless you have ships for cruising, let who will be admirals, it will be the same thing still. There is experience required in a Chairman as well as an Admiral. Col. Granville. I appeal to the gentlemen of the committee, if one third part of those ships foundered at sea, as is said? Alderman Berry said, If he had time, he could make it appear that 3,000 ships have been lost.' Priestman said, If one ship in three escaped, they were gainers.' But sir Robert Rich said, He was of another opinion.'

Mr. Smith. I do acknowledge, lord Falkland did tell you, the last session, there were not ships enough to cruise-But the Dover frigate lay a fortnight without orders for cruising.

Sir Tho. Clarges. I never saw the like upon this occasion. You ordered a Report, that was made on Saturday; and now we spend all our time in arraigning that Report, and the house. I think it very extraordinary, after the Report has been received, for all the committee to be arraigned, and to put you from your business. Advice is now your business. In all the public prints, there is not a week but you have news of losses at sea of 20, and 30, and 50 ships. This of lord Falkland is but a little matter of the complaint. We are obliged to the Hollanders to set out 50 ships and 17,000 men; if so, we have 13,000 men to supply our trade, and make convoys. I was in hopes we had sufficient men to guard the seas.

been any neglect in securing of Trade? Then, they failed in their duty, but if it cannot be prevented by them, they are not in fault; merchants run away without Convoy, for lucre, and fall into the hands of the enemy, and they are gainers if one or two come safe home. Your losses have been as great in other wars as this. I do affirm, that you have not ships enough to maintain the War and Trade too. If there had been, there had been reason for your advice, but now the Commissioners have got experience, and at your cost have learned it, it would be strange to turn them out.

Sir Tho. Clarges. I would not have the house misled. It is said, 'you have no conve nient ports.' But at Brest, and St. Malo's, they must have several winds to go in and out; and if we have no more ships, we cannot help this. But you gave 1,700,000l. for the Ordnance and Fleet, which, considering what wear and tear you gave for ships, would have built ships for the service of your trade. No aid formerly was given for Ships; the Customs ought to be for that. The first Money was not half spent for Ships, and till you appropriated it, it was not done. We never lost so many ships in so short a time. To have such great losses, and we know not how, is very unfortunate. I think it reasonable, under such misfortunes to change hands, not only in the Admiralty; but I would go through all. I think the charge of so great a fleet, though very wise and gallant, too great for one man. The French king had some others joined with Tourville. In this extremity we catch at the first thing we light of.

Col. Austen. Give me leave, my modesty safe, not to confess myself so ignorant in the affairs of the Admiralty as some gentlemen would have me. If I show there is no fault at all in the Admiralty, I take off all that has been said against them. Of what was alledged at the Committee; there was no proof, no names of ships, no places, &c. The insurers have brought these losses upon you, by making the ships ready to go without convoys.

Sir John Lowther. I fear there is something in the question, that may give the house occasion to repent afterwards. It is said, 'Ships have been lost,' and you have had reasons on one side, and another, why, you were told of want of Ships last parliament. And the office of insurance have 40 per cent. if the ship comes safe home, and if taken, 20 per cent. and so the merchant cares not if his ship be taken. I hope some remedy may be provided for this.

Sir Edw. Seymour. I did easily foresee that a debate of so large a field would be a long one. I would be tender how I enter into the debate of the insufficiency, or unskilfulness, of the Admiralty. As for the first, it cannot be attributed to an Englishman; for the latter, I am sorry it is so great, to the ruin of themselves, and the whole nation, As for Alliances, if once you shake that part of alliances, they can make peace, and you not, when you want those alliances, and the ally against you that will be worse than the alliances. I agree, it is for the interest of England, and its security, to be found only in the Fleet; but this I agree by the way, if you are at the charge of a fleet only from Spithead to the Land's End, you will have a very ill account of the war. If you have no other ways to annoy the French king, but your fleet, you will come short of expectations. Before you advance any judgment, or advice, know how these things come to pass. Mr. Finch. I have heard of complaints, That the Admiralty is not trusted, is a mis- and I wish things better managed; but when I take; they are as much trusted as ever any. give judgment, I must see that these MiscarThe number of ships was never in the Admi-riages be proved. As for the power of the ralty. The question is, Whether there has Admiralty, I am not able to determine that

Sir Edw. Seymour. This happens unluckily, that the only person of experience is the only person complained of, Priestinan.

Sir Tho. Clarges. This is to excuse Priest- ́ man, who should do it himself.

Mr. Attorney Somers. As the question is worded, I cannot come up to it. If the question be, to constitute persons skilful in mari-The ministers serve you with the best of their time affairs,' it must imply, that those that are in the employment of the Admiralty are not.

where else, because once a year the parliament sits; and, without the charge of intelligence, they know all affairs. If you act by measures of no country, nor your own, what will ensue? Had you not a secret Committee in the Exa

der? * Of this Committee of Council I am one; I had rather be at home. Consider your own honour, and do what you please.

Mr. Clarke. I doubt whether this Advice is practicable, in the way it is laid down. It appears who had the management chiefly in the descent, and transportation of it from Ireland to the Thames, and all for that great undertaking.

we should have no notice, and not half forces | enough left for our security; I desire you to consider, whether those who have suffered you to be so surprized, will not do it again. It is strange, that we should not know the strength of the French fleet, till we had fought then.mination of sir Edmundbury Godfrey's MurWe know that, from all parts of England, discontented persons flocked to London, with arms and horses seized, and not one man was discovered of the conspirators. Though we had very few forces left, yet there were great complaints of free-quarter, this summer, on members of yours, and no man punished for invading of property. They seize shipping to a great value, and no one man has had satisfaction. Another thing I shall mention; men discharged from imprisonment in Westminster-Hall, and afterwards guards put upon them. A great many instances might be given more, and I might fly higher to take off heads. But I move you to come to this Resolution, That the great affairs of the Government, for the time past, have been unsuccessfully managed; and that the king be moved, for the future, to employ men of known integrity and fidelity.

Sir Wm. Strickland. I cannot tell where it is we are wounded. I would not have the management in such hands for the future; but this cannot be while we have a CabinetCouncil.

Mr. Waller, 'Cabinet-Council' is not a word to be found in our Law-books. We knew it not before; we took it for a nick-name. Nothing can fall out more unhappily than to have a distinction made of the Cabinet' and Privy-Council.' It has had this effect in the country, and must have, that, in the country, the justices of the peace, and deputy-lieutenants, will be afraid to act: they will say, • they cannot go on;' and why? Because several of them have been misrepresented, and are not willing to act; they know not who will stand by them; and are loth to make discoveries, unless seconded. If some of the PrivyCouncil must be trusted, and some not, to whom must any gentleman apply? Must he ask, Who is a Cabinet-Counsellor?" This creates mistrust in the people. I am sure, these distinctions of some being more trusted than others, have given great dissatisfaction. This is what I have met with this summer; and therefore I second the motion.

Sir Rd. Temple. All governments reduce their Council to a few: Holland does; and the French king to three.

Mr. Waller. If the government be betrayed, I doubt not but gentlemen will be so hold as to declare the persons that have done it. Impeachments have been in parliament against persons, for taking too much upon them. Two things plainly have been faulty; want of intelligence, and orders, to that which is our great safety, the Fleet. The unsuccessfulness of the fleet, last year, came from uncertainty of orders. We took our orders in a French ship, before we had them from our own. All has come from delay of orders, as if our descent should come to nothing. I am of this opinion, that the unsuccessfulness of the descent was for want of intelligence from the secretary, and those who issued out those orders.

Sir Christ. Musgrave. In due time, this may come before you. This debate is not properly before you now; for, after it was reported, it was not referred to your consideration; but properly in its place it may come before you. I shall only observe, that, as the question stauds on your paper, nobody can give an affirmative or a negative to it.

Mr. Goodwin Wharton. Some, by the ill advices they gave king James, were a means to change his government; and the management of this government makes me think the same thing is doing now. The day the king made his Speech, before he spoke it, there was a Speech went about, that did burlesque it, head by head. You were told, by Foley,

That he could not enumerate all, for they were numerous.' I know it well, that the Gazette of the 10th of May told us, ' That the French were seen on our coast, but they stood off for France.' I did myself acquaint the queen, on the 14th of May, That the French were not gone out of the channel.' I believe the Cabinet Council were called, and ordered the Fleet to sail. All was in confusion as £0 the Descent. The enemy was upon you, before you knew of it. I saw a messenger, at the secretary's office, sit grumbling with another messenger, That it is your turn to go, and I will not go till I am paid for what I have Sir John Lowther. I would willingly sit done before.' This being so, how can your afdown, if I did not think the honour of the fairs go on with vigour? Things are to be done house, and our safety, concerned in the ques-by proper judges of them. In king James's 1st's tion. What will foreigners say to this? I time, there was a Council of War in the Palahave heard foreign ministers say, That it is better for their affairs in England than any

Mr. Waller. We have reduced our Secretaries from two to one. The question proposed was, That the king be advised, that all matters of state be advised on in the Privy-Council; and that the management of them by a Cabal is dangerous.'

* See vol. iv. p. 1021,

Mr. Foley. I would have every counsellor set his hand to his assent, or dissent, to be dis-ply. I remember that the last session, a great tinguished.