lay ready for the royal assent, but the king thought fit to refuse it.

Debate on the King's rejecting the PlaceBill.*] Jan. 26. The house of commons went into a grand committee on the State of the Kingdom.

of the like now: the Bill offers Remedy, but we are denied it; which speaks this language, That the king will have us still corrupt.' We have done well for religion, but all in vain, if we enjoy not our liberties.

Mr. Hutchinson. Neither our zeal for the king, nor the sums given, can oblige so much as the false counsellors, who are worse than Jacobites. They may now object, That we have only changed our prince, but not for the better, at so many millions expence.' I will not dispute the negative voice. The nature of the Bill was to take off scandal, to show the world that we give our votes, and do not sell them. Our own actions have given occasion, hereto, by carrying on the Bill in former sessions with fondness of it, but in this we were very cool: it may give the king occasion to think that we know not what to do; that the members of this house are so made, for their ingenuity and skill to manage us, rather than their offices, which they either mind not, or know little of.

Sir Tho. Clarges. I am sorry for the cccasion of the committee. I will not say any thing concerning his majesty, only of the Evil Counsellors that presumed so to advise the king. Former practice hath been to have the bills to be passed, read, and debated, in council; neither ought a parliament to be called without a council. Formerly, just Bills and Grievances were first passed; and after that, the Money given. Now, in great respect to his majesty, the order is inverted, and our Grievances denied redress. I cannot think the king to blame, since his Declaration hath been to concur with us in any thing, to make us happy. I should have been glad if the counsellors, or some of them, would have given some reason for the rejection of this Bill. I believe, the people that sent us up will hate us for do- Sir John Lowther. I find it difficult to say ing nothing but giving away their Money, in any thing, in my rest. I know myself to be effect, one to another, as in the Rump, which an honest man, and I am an Englishman too. was their ruin, and may be ours. I conclude I neither have gotten by the court, nor ever with a motion, That the Advisers of the Re-will. I believe there may be evil counsellors, jection of this Bill are enemies to the king and kingdom.'

Mr. Brewer. All agree, that the king hath a negative voice to Bls: nobody hath a greater reverence to parliaments than myself; but the Bill rejected was liable to exceptions. I gave my vote to make the prince of Orange king, but will never give my vote to unking him. I think it proper, in this case, for the king to exercise his negative voice.

Sir John Thompson. When I gave my voice to make the prince of Orange king, I thought to have seen better times than these. If this matter go, and nothing be done, I expect nothing but that we shall be underlings to courtiers. It is fit to consider the State of the Nation in all parts of it; as in your quotas; so if you consider your Fleet, your convoys: look upon all Miscarriages, and you may hunt them to the cabinet; but there we must leave it, for we cannot find the hand that does the mischief. King Charles I. was the first that set up the Cabinet, but he was taken down for it; so was king James, his son, and made a vagabond. All debates should be in council; now all things are huddled up. Our affairs are secret, but our Miscarriages open. The Admiralty told us where the Miscarriage lay: I hope that, by an Address, that will be laid open with the rest; and I conclude with the same motion that Clarges made.

Mr. Bromley. I shall be careful not to speak about the negative voice. I would have gentlemen consider the confidence the house put in his majesty, and the vast sums given, and yet this Bill rejected. The preamble of the Bill declared former Corruptions, and suspicion

* Sent to Mr. Grey by Mr. Wilmot.

but who they are will be a dispute for ever. We are ever unfortunate, because of different Parties, two at least, so that one dares not trust the other, nor speak plain; and what can be done by the king, when one side informs him evil of the other? Now, cure you but this, and all will be well; all will speak plain. I would propose to you, to contrive some way that the king may have a Council that both you and may confide in.

he

*

Mr. Peregrine Bertie, jun. What was proposed by the member before, makes me think the question first moved most necessary.

Mr. Harley. I think Lowther has told you the true state of the case. I think the greatness of his estate and mind makes him too great to be suspected in this matter. I hope that, in due time, something may be done therein. At the first Revolution, if care had been taken, Parties might have been prevented, and we should have had but one, and that for the good of England; but industry was used by some to the contrary. I conclude, that we can do no less than put a mark on some, by our Resolution on the question.

The question passed, with only two or three
Noes' to the contrary, as follows:

Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that whoever advised the king not to give the royal assent to the Act touching free and impartial Proceedings in Parliament, which was to redress a Grievance, and take off a Scandal upon the proceedings of the commons in parliament, is an enemy to their majesties and the kingdom."-Which was agreed to by the house.

Second son of the earl of Lindsey, and Vice-chamberlain.

Mr. Jeffreys. If the Council be so divided, | Bill in Richard's time was presented; the Biit may be presumed that one party is in the shops protested against it, but the king passed right, and the other in the wrong. I would it, Because,' he said, he was bound by his have the house address the king, That he would Coronation Oath.' A Petition in parliament please to discover by what Advice the Bill was was presented in Henry 4th's time, wherein it rejected. was said, That what was desired was not against the Prerogative, because for the good of the commons. I hope we say nothing here amiss, since we lave so lately asserted the DiI say, it was no news

But there was a general No!' thereto. Mr. Harley. The house has been pleased to give their opinion in the former question, but you ought also to take some care of your-vine right of this house. selves. You are disappointed of Remedy against Corruption. The king, indeed, hath a negative voice; so have you in Money; and when the people give, their minds should be free, that they are in condition to give. We ought, therefore, to make some Representation to his majesty, That whereas we lay under great imputation of Bribery, we were endeavouring to clear ourselves of it, by the Bill rejected.' I move, therefore, That we humbly represent to his majesty how rare the instances are, in former times, of Bills being rejected; more especially where Money has been plentifully granted.'

anciently to oblige the king to call a parliament, and to force kings to call them, and to swear to them after; and so Magna Charta, and Charta de Foresta, were given. In the reign of ***** +the archbishop of Canterbury (for then the Bishops were for the people's good) advised the king to pass the bills tendered. I conclude with Harley's motion, and others, That an humble Representation be made to his majesty, &c.'

Sir Francis Winnington. The last gentleman calls me up. I am for the negative voice, and prerogative; but if the negative voice shall extend to all good bills, it is very much misused. We have been always busy in giving Money, and have always come up to that which has been required. I think very well of many gentlemen that have offices; but I believe they would not have had offices, if they had not been members of parliament. This Bill, and the Triennial Bill, tend immediately to keep ourselves uncorrupt; and if the king shall make use of his negative voice, in such a case, it is very hard. I humbly propose, That we may address, that such Rejection may be a means to alienate the hearts of the people.' I would not have farther proceeding in Money yet; now we have given two millions for present occasion, we may have some breath.

Mr. Paul Foley. I believe the king hath a negative voice, and it is necessary it should be so; but if this be made use of to turn by all bills, and things the court likes not, it is misused; for such a prerogative is committed to him for the good of us all. It hath been a great scandal to us, and this bill was for clearing us in some measure, and yet divided in so small an instance! I conclude with the motion that Harley made, To represent how few the instances have been to deny Assent, when so much Money has been given.'

Mr. Howe. I believe our mischief arises from what an honourable member (Lowther) observed, from Parties in council, who thereby raise themselves upon one another. I have never changed party. If others have left me, let them answer for it. Why should we meet here, if what we do for the good of our country be to no purpose? I was for deposing king James, and for setting up king William: but we have committed a great villainy, if we settle not our Liberties on a true foundation; but if we do that, we have done a glorious work. A

Sir Walter Yonge. I would have gentlemen consider whether this is the only bill rejected for our good. I would not have the Triennial Bill named in the question, but I desire the words' other public bills,' in general, may be in the question.

Mr. Clarke. I second the same.

Sir Henry Goodrick. To agree so solemnly, in such an Address, is so severe upon the king, that I cannot agree to it. His majesty being so much abroad for our service, venturing his life almost ever since his coming to the crown, had made him not so acquainted with methods of parliament. I would humbly move therefore, That an Address be made upon the first Vote only."

Mr. Charles Montagu. I shall always be for the liberties of the people, and for the prerogative of the crown. If the crown hath a negative voice, then why not exercised on this bill, as well as on any other; It was formerly only, and that in the highest times, and by the highest men, that the king cannot deny us bills of right and justice. But this is for altering your constitution, not to allow the king a negative voice.

None spoke in the Debate, but those before, only sir Charles Sedley, who was not heard. But almost all before, and many other also, spoke to the stating the questions, about which there was very much debate. The questions at last were agreed to, the first as above, the second as follows. Some debate also was;

That it should be an humble Address,' which was taken to be of a softer nature than a Representation,' though this was not so hard a word as a Remonstrance.'

Resolved, "That a Representation be made to his majesty, humbly to lay before him, how few the instances have been, in former reigns, of denying the royal assent to bills for redress of Grievances; and the great grief of the commons for his not having given the royal assent to several public bills; and particularly to the Bill touching free and impartial Proceedings in

+ Sic Orig.

Parliament, which tended so much to the clearing the reputation of this house; after their having so freely voted to supply the public Occasions:" Which was agreed to by the house, and a Committee was appointed to draw it up. The Commons' Representation to the King thereon.] Jan. 27. Col. Granville reported the following humble Representation to his majesty, viz.

The King's Answer.] Jan. 31. The Speaker reported, That his maj. had been pleased to give the following Answer to the Representation : "Gentlemen; I am very sensible of the good affections you have expressed to me,-upon many occasions, and of the zeal you have shown for our common interest: I shall make use of this opportunity to tell you, that no prince ever had a higher esteem for the constitution of the English government than myself; and that I shall ever have a great regard to the Advice of parliaments. I am persuaded that nothing can so much conduce to the happiness and welfare of this kingdom, as an entire con

I shall, by all means, endeavour to preserve : and I assure you, I shall look upon such persons to be my enemies, who shall advise any thing that may lessen it *."

is from your goodness we must expect arguments to soften to them, in some measure, the necessary hardships they are forced to undergo in the present conjuncture; and therefore humbly beseech your majesty, for the removing all Jealousies from your people, (without which the parliament will be less able to serve your majesty, or to support the government) to be pleased to follow the course of the best of your predecessors; and to direct some expedient, whereby your majesty, your parliament, and people may reap the fruit designed by that Bill, to which your majesty, by ill advice, was pleased so lately to deny the royal assent."

"We your majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Coinmons in parliament assembled, think ourselves bound in duty to your majesty, humbly to represent, that the usage of parliament in all times hath been, that what Bills have been agreed by both houses for the re-fidence between the king and people; which dress of Grievances, or other public good, have, when tendered to the throne, obtained the royal assent; and that there are very few instances, in former reigns, where such assent, in such cases, has not been given; and those attended with great inconveniences to the crown of England; especially where the same has been withheld by insinuations of particular persons, without the Advice of the PrivyCouncil, thereby creating great dissatisfactions and jealousies in the minds of the people.Your Commons therefore, out of their sincere desire of the welfare of your majesty and your government, and that you may always reign in prosperity and happiness in the affection of your subjects, cannot, without great grief of heart, reflect, that, since your majesty's accession to the crown, several public bills, made by advice of both houses of parliament, have not obtained the royal assent; and, in particular, a Bill intituled, An Act touching free and impartial Proceedings in Parliament,' which was made to redress a Grievance, and take off a scandal relating to the proceedings of your commons in parliament, after they had freely voted great supplies for the public occasions; which they can impute to no other cause than your majesty's being unacquainted with the constitutions of parliament, and the insinuations of particular persons, who take upon then, for their own particular ends, to advise your majesty contrary to the Advice of parliament; and therefore cannot look upon them but as enemies to your majesty and your government. Upon these considerations, we humbly beseech your majesty to believe, that none can have so great a concern and interest in the prosperity and happiness of your majesty, and your government, as your two houses of parliament; and do therefore humbly pray, that, for the future, you will be graciously pleased to harken to the Advice of your parliament, and not to the secret advice of particular persons, who may have private interests of their own, separate from the true interest of your majesty, and your people *."

*In the Jacobite paper, called, "The Price of the Abdication," is the following Passage: "It might have been expected, that a direct and categorical Answer should have been given to so home an Address; yet it seems the house, for all the millions given, must be treated only with whipt cream, or perfumed air; which would not have satisfied, if the Adepti had not found their account in a previous treat of a 23,000l. distribution." The same writer also adds, "That if any of our preceding kings had given such an Answer upon a Petition of Right, or the like occasion, it would have enraged an hornet's nest and no less than the voting a fresh Address, or adjourning till they received a more satisfactory Answer, would have contented the house." And, again, "How can any say, He hath a great regard to the Advice of Parliaments? When, at that very same instant, neither the Advisers of the rejecting the Bill are delated, nor the prayer of the Representation touched upon. How can one be persuaded, That nothing can so much conduce to the happiness and welfare of this kingdom, as an entire confidence between the 'king and people,' without explaining what people are intended? For the complex body of the people, and Pensioners, have very different * Instead of this last Paragraph, the follow-interests; and the majority of the representaing was originally drawn up by the Committee, but, on the Report, rejected by the house: "We beg, sir, you will be pleased to consider us as answerable to those we represent: and it VOL, V.

tive people, were, at the voting the Representation at least, no such confidents, neither when the Le Roy admisera was pronounced, could it be truly said, That he would, by all means, SH

Debate on the King's Answer.] Feb. 1. Mr. | such nice distinction betwixt many occasions,' Paul Foley. I am of opinion that the king's Answer to the Representation does not come up to what is aimed at; that we aimed at a settlement in the point, to have all our reasonable bills of right to be passed; but since it can be no otherwise done, we must tack our Grievances to our Money-bills; for we have just Fears and Grievances as long as we have a standing Army. The king tells us,' He has a great regard to our constitution;' but it appears not that he understands our constitution, which he may take to be to reject our bills of ever so just Grievances. I move That an humble Address may be made to the king for a farther Answer.'

Sir Robert Cotton. What is said in the king's Answer tends to full satisfaction (And so reads each Paragraph, and with strained inferences descants thereon, like a courtier.)

Mr. Hutchinson. The king says, He is sensible of the good affection we have expressed on many occasions: I am sorry it should not be expressed on all occasions. The king may still reject our bills as before, for any assurance given us in his Answer. I think that, unless you keep the love of the people (whose Money you have freely disposed of) by securing to the people what the king promised at first, good correspondence with the king cannot be. (And so reflects on Officers.)

Sir Tho. Littleton. It is hard to reflect on his majesty's words in such wise, by making

and all occasions.' I think that his majesty's Answer is very pat to the purpose. You make a prayer at the end of the Representation, and his majesty ties up his Answer to that prayer, which desired nothing farther than is expressed in the prayer. Would any man desire that the king should take occasion to say, 'That he is sorry he did not pass the Bill, and that he will do so no more? These expressions would not become his majesty. I think it hard that such reflections should be upon those in Office, to be represented false to their country: pray let them be proved false, and punish them as severe as you will; but till such falsity is proved, pray let no man suffer for doing double duty to his king and country both. We have many enemies without doors, some at the very doors of the house, others at cabals, who would be glad of our dissatisfaction with the king's Answer. But I, for my part, have a way how to guide my vote always in the house, which is to vote contrary to what our enemies without doors wish.

Sir John Thompson. The member that spoke last, hath a very uncertain rule to guide his voting, for our enemies may alter their opinion of government, and all things, and daily do so, to make room for their better fortunes. I do not take the debate to be betwixt this house and the king, but betwixt this house and the ministers, which if we remove not, they will remove us, and if your interest cannot do it,

endeavour to preserve it; when, contrary to following remarkable Passage: "In the next expectation and interest, if the maxiin laid place, sir, let me desire you to avoid concern down be true, the prince rejected so solemn an ing yourself in Elections of members in parliaAdvice. Since, therefore, such apparent flaws ment, or influencing them when chosen. The may be found in the assertory part, it will be parliament is a sacred part of the English conworth our enquiry, how they are amended institution; and like the Israelites Ark of old, is not the promissory part of the Answer, in these to be touched profanely, but with great danger words. And, I assure you, I shall look upon to those who touch it so. And, therefore, Sir, such persons as my enemies, which shall ad- it will be your true interest to leave the people vise any thing that shall lessen it.' Even Ora-free to their choice, and the members free to eles never wanted ambiguity. The commons declare who were enemies to the king and kingdom here those are characterized who must be reputed enemies to the king only. It is not tanti, whether they be enemies to the kingdom or not, so as they be fast friends to the king. How dexterous soever the Advisers of the Answer thought themselves, the not complying with the parliamentary Advice, and the so loose answering an Address of that importance, will more than once rivet it in the aninds of the people, That a Pensionary Party, however unfaithful of the interests of the body of the people, are only to be caressed, and have the character of friends; and the true patriots of their country must be calumniated with the epithet of enemies, who lessen the confidence between king and people."

their opinions when chosen. It is still fresh in our memories, how much the practices of the late reigns, in corrupting Elections, and closeting members of parliament, enraged the nation, and they had reason to resent it; for if, for the sake of a vote, a member of parliament shall be placed in an office of trust he is not fit for, this is destroying the government two ways at once for to speak in the phrase of the ministry, it is making a parliament of Clouts, and an officer of Clouts at the same stroke. Rejecting Bills offered by parliament, of public benefit, and for securing our ancient government, and the fundamental Rights of the subjects, was highly displeasing to the nation also in the late reigns and will be so in all reigns; as was likewise the denying the people their undoubted right of frequent parliaments. They During this Session also, another Pamphlet had, also, in the late governments, an invenwas published (which is still extant in the State tion to make a pump of the parliament, and by Tracts of this reign) under the Title of A pouring a pint of water, to fetch out a tun. Dialogue between Whig and Tory,' with a free This was justly most provoking to the nation, and Dedication to king William, in which is the treasured up wrath against the day of wrath.”

Col. Granville. I think there is but one objection to the king's Answer, and that is, that it is no Answer at all, and therefore, for the Brigadier Leveson. I observe an objection, same reason, I think fit to make a Represen-That the king's Answer may serve to any tation. I am dissatisfied with an insufficient thing.' Then why not to the Representation? answer. I therefore declare, I am for farther At such a rate of receiving the king's Answer, application for a farther answer. I think it the best way, that those that penned the Representation, should have gone to have penned his majesty's Answer.