we have, which is now but little, with that little they will overturn the constitution and the government in church and state. The right hon. gent. tells us, that if fifty or sixty catholics obtain seats in parliament, there will be much danger. In what that danger is to consist I am at a loss to discover. But how are these fifty or sixty to obtain seats in parliament? What is to become of the prof the right hon. gentleman who has just sat down, I might, perhaps, despair of encountering him successfully, if I had not previously received the assistance of one who is altogether as able as the right hon. gent. and whom I shall always highly respect-it is the right hon. gent. himself: for I think I can clearly show that one half of the right hon. gentleman's speech has incontrovertibly answered the other. He has told us of the vic-testant gentry? What is to become of their tories of lord Nelson and lord Hutchinson in tenantry? Who are the persons that are to Egypt, gained by the efforts and assistance return those catholics? The fear of it is most of Irishmen, from which he draws a con- futile; for my own part, I really believe clusive proof of the loyalty of the lower there would not be ten catholics returned in orders of the catholics; and being also con- as many years. The right hon. gent. allows; vinced of the loyalty of the higher orders of however, that if even one hundred catholics that body, he is determined to reward it, by should obtain seats in this house, their efforts -refusing the prayer of their petition. He would be nugatory, or of very little avail has also informed us what is the protestant against the other five hundred and fifty-eight constitution—that it is a protestant king, But, finding they have no weight or influence protestant lords, and protestant commons- equal to what they expected, they become and has most emphatically and feelingly discontented here too-and what do they do? pointed out to us the danger of a protestant The right hon. gent by a peculiar kind of king surrounded by catholic counsellors. logic, shows that they will dissolve the But pray, sir, who is to effect that? The answer is obvious. This very protestant king himself. It is his Majesty, who, of his own free will, is to choose those counsellors, who are to introduce the paramount authority of the pope! Why, sir, if his Majesty should unfortunately be surrounded by counsellors of such a description, and they should endeavour to intrigue for such a purpose, would it not be the very first act of his Majesty to dismiss from his counsels such wicked advisers ?-The right hon. gent. seems to be in fear for the safety of the Ha-tertain the highest respect and esteem-but noverian succession. Who, sir, is to com- I cannot help saying there is something not pel any prince of the house of Hanover to only ridiculous, but contemptible, to hear surround himself with catholic advisers and gentlemen argue that there is any actual dans a catholic council? It must be himself ger to the constitution or the government alone who can do this-and if ever a prince from admitting a few catholics to have seats could be found, who would so far attempt in parliament. I have, sir, however, heard to destroy the high trust reposed in him, by arguments used in this house which have choosing advisers who should endeavour to made on my mind a most deep impression, subvert the constitution, or to change the and from which one would be led to think nature of the government in church and that some men were sent here only to cir state, I believe there can be no doubt but in culate calumnies against, and to draw the this house there would be found many who most odious pictures of the character of our would take a pride in moving to punish such common country. I have heard it said, sir, advisers. The right hon. gent. says, that if that the mass of the Irish people are so you grant the prayer of this petition, they blood-thirsty, ignorant, and ferocious, and, will not be contented; in proof of which he this is applied to the lower orders in parti adduces the various concessions heretofore cular, that no protestant would be safe in made to the catholics; he says, the asser-living amongst them. I have heard as much tion made by an honourable gentleman, that it was little for us to grant, but much for them to receive,' ought to be inverted; and he tells us also, that if we give them all union. After having used their talents, their unanimity, and adherence to each other, without any avail, they contrive to dissolve the union in spite of the five huns dred and fifty-eight, and send themselves back to Ireland, there to form a popish par liament. There is something ridiculous→→ I beg pardon, sir, for using that wordmean not the slightest disrespect to any gens tleman, more especially the right hon. gent. to whose argument I am particularly allud ing, and for whose personal character Lend said in another place, but I did not feel it! with so much pain and indignation there as: I did with shame here, I cannot but feel sorry to hear such a character given to a body of people, who, under so many disad-questionably; and such an adviser could not vantages as they have had to contend with, possibly escape being brought to condi, n pitare, in my opinion, the very reverse, in every nishment for his attempt. It would be the respect, of what they have been thus falsely same if there were more catholies in the described. There never was so foul a mis- council; and it is ridiculous to suppose that representation of the Irish character; and I they would forfeit the confidence of their think one of the strongest proofs of this is, king, and draw on their heads the land of that those who have given this character vengeance and punishment, more than prohave before and will again return to Ireland, testants would. But it seems, sir, in the and walk in the most perfect security in opinions of some hon. gentlemen, that caevery part of it; and I defy any person liv- tholics are unlike all other men; that they ing to prove a single instance in which the are not to be believed on their oaths. Other people who have been thus degradingly tra- dissenters of various classes may be believed duced have ever expressed the least personal on their oaths, but a catholic never; like resentment, or inflicted any personal ven- the lover, if he swears, he'll certainly degeance on them. A right hon. and learned ceive.' The right hon. gent. who spoke gent, (the attorney-general) said yesterday, last allows that many of those who have that if he had been in his Majesty's councils signed the petition, he knows to be men at the time, he would have objected to the of worth.' Yet the idea of a catholic not elective franchise being granted to the catho- being to be believed on his oath, can surely lics, and also to the establishment of the form no part in the character of a man of college of Maynooth. This latter objection, worth; nor can any man ever be entitled I own, struck me most forcibly. What to that character, of whom such an idea can would the learned gentleman do with the be seriously entertained. An objection has catholics? Would he have them brought up been urged against this petition, on the in the grossest ignorance? Would he per- ground of its not being signed by any of the mit them no place of education, by which catholic clergy. I believe the true reason they might be rendered useful members of to be this--the catholics wished to have this society, and good and loyal subjects? or measure understood, as it is really meant, would he have them sent out of the country a respectful petition for a civil right, unconto be educated in the seminaries of that pope, nected with their religious tenets; and thereof whose principles he has so great a dread, fore it was not signed by the clergy, because and to whose power he thinks it necessary to it was considered as an act relating solely to oppose such strong and formidable barriers? | the laity of that persuasion. I have a book I am heartily glad, sir, the right hon. and in my pocket, sir, out of which I will beg learned gent. did not form a part of his Ma- leave of the house to read a few short exjesty's councils at the period when those satracts. I am aware that it is not the most lutary measures took place, and I sincerely agreeable thing to trespass on the patience and devoutly hope he never will be consult- of the house, by reading books to them; but ed on any future occasion of a similar kind. there have been so many gross misrepresent→→So much having been said, sir, of the dan-ations circulated against the tenets of the ger of a protestant king being surrounded with catholic advisers, I would wish to suppose an instance which may, perhaps, place the subject in a somewhat different point of view. I will suppose there should be a gentleman born and educated as a catholic, who should be possessed of very superior talents and endowments; that he was an excellent scholar; a good historian; a great financier; an accomplished gentleman; and a complete statesman; and that a protestant king, understanding all this, should choose to employ him-would it not be an act of folly or madness, or both, in this man, after the king had thus taken him into his confidence, if he should advise his sovereign to adopt any measure that might tend to overturn the constitution or the state? It would most un VOL. IV. catholics, in order to raise prejudices against their case, that I must intreat your indul gence. It is, sir, a Roman catholic prayer book, which the clergy put into the han's of their flock, and out of which they perform their devotions. (Here the hon. gent. read a renunciation of the catholics, which went to show, that they do not think the pope infallible, or that they are or can be dispensed by any one, for any act of criminality, or breach of the laws of morality. Also, an oath, which says, in express terms, that they do not believe in the infallibility of the pope, and that they owe allegiance to the king, under whose government they live, that the pope cannot give them dispensation from hat allegiance; but they are bound to fight for and protect their king and his govern 3 T ment against all enemies, even though the pope himself should enter the kingdom at the head of an invading army.) Mr. Ponsonby continued-If these, sir, are not satisfactory renunciations and abjurations of all those absurd tenets which have been attributed to these people, then, I think, no such can be framed. I believe there is not a parish priest in Ireland who has not taken this oath, and God forbid they should think they were not bound to perform and strictly adhere to it! But, sir, if this dreadful character of the catholics were true, I think the protestants in Ireland must be the strangest set of beings that ever were formed. There are, sir, at this very moment, according to the articles of the union, a certain number of noblemen and gentlemen who come over to this country to attend their duty in parliament; there are, perhaps, somewhere about one hundred, and these, most of them, leave their property, their children, and even in some cases their wives, under the care and protection of catholic servants; and if these were the wretches which some persons describe the lower orders of the Irish catholics to be, we should be the most unfeeling and careless guardians of all that is most dear to hunian nature, to trust them in the care and custody of those who are under the immediate influence of their priests, and these men not to be believed on their oaths! But, sir, I will be bold to say, never was there so foul a misrepresentation, and so gross a calumny, as this against the Irish catholics. There never was a race of men in Europe who would preserve so much of what is good under so much oppression. I know them well; and I know, at the same time, that whatever there is of good in them, they owe to themselves,-whatever there is bad in them, they owe to you. Yes, sir, I will say, it is owing entirely to your bad government. Ilrave many friends and near connections here for whom I feel the highest respect, and most affectionate regard. I love this country, sir, and would do every thing in my power to serve it; but I will not flatter it. You have governed Ireland badly. That country has long appeared to you in the light of what has been vulgarly called "a bore." You have viewed it as a cast-off, not worthy your notice or regard, and so ministers got rid of the trouble of it, they did not care how, or in what way. I believe, sir, I can trace the origin of this misgovernment of Ireland to ancient times, and that its rise is to be attributed to commercial jealousy. In days of yore, those who composed the mer cantile world were imbued with the notion, that the poorer you could make other countries, the richer would be your own. England unfortunately imbibed this notion. At the time of the revolution there was a dispute between two families which should possess the government of this country, and Ireland became most unfortunately involved in the contest. I do not mention this, sir, with any intention of throwing the smallest degree of blame or censure on your ancestors. I merely adduce it as a matter of historical fact, to show how the Irish have been treated for so long a series of years. From those who are mere men, you cannot expect the actions of superior beings. You cannot expect the virtues of freemen from slaves; and when I reflect on this, instead of being astonished at the situation of the Irish catholics, I am rather surprised that they have been able to conduct themselves so well as they have done. I am not surprised, however, that they now petition; but I am very much surprised that a petition has not been presented long before. I own I am surprised the petitioners were catholics, because I think the protestants should have voluntarily brought it forward. That would have produced the happiest effects, and have shown a confidence highly honourable to them. Power, in itself, is at all times dangerous; but when you suffer one sect to lord it over another, you cannot wonder if the feelings become warm and animated, and if discontents and jealousies are the consequence. Let us now, for a moment, sir, consider the policy of France. Fas est et ab hoste doceri. Bonaparté has formed an alliance with the pope, who has been at Paris, and officiated in placing the crown of the empire on that emperor's head. The Roman catholic is the established religion of France, and yet protestants are there admissible to all offices of honour, trust, and profit, as well as catholics. If we were to land an army to-morrow in France, does any man imagine the protestants of that country would join them? Some persons affect to think, and do not scruple to say, they can put more faith in protestants than in catholics. Let us see how far this is consonant with reason, and justified by the test of experience, so far as relates to ourselves. Prussia and Austria, in the last war, were both our allies. The king of Prussia, a protestant prince, took our subsidy, and cheated us of our money, by withdrawing himself from our alliance and the war; the latter, a catholic prince, bravely and honourably stood by us till he could fight no longer. In the last war, sir, France lost almost all her American or West India possessions; but the rulers of that country, like wise politicians, in order to make themselves amends, turned all their attention to making themselves strong in Europe. They therefore added Holland, Flanders, Italy, and Switzerland to their former territory; and when a peace took place, the greatest part of what we had taken from them in the East and West Indies was restored to them. Bonaparté well knows now that whoever is strong in Europe must ultimately have the East and West Indies. It is that which forms the strength and power of the political tree-it is that which gives the lofty head and magnificent foliage, and which enables it to spread its branches to the most distant quarters of the globe. Europe may truly be called magna mater virum; and as our enemy has turned so much of his attention to the consolidation of his power in Europe, we ought to follow so wise a policy and do the same. Above all, sir, we ought as much as possible to consolidate our strength, by uniting the affections of all ranks and descriptions of persons among ourselves. And unless you think you will or can overturn the constitution, by adimitting a few catholics to sit in parliament, you will do a most politic act by granting the prayer of this petition, and thereby niting in affection and political harmony every description of his Majesty's subjects, who will cheerfully join heart and hand, and lay down their lives together, should it be necessary, in defence of that constitution and government under which they all enjoy the benefit of equal laws. The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose and spoke as follows:-Differing, sir, as I do, from the hon. gent. who proposed this motion, and differing also in many respects from several of those who have opposed it, I feel it necessary to state shortly, but distinctly, the views, the motives, and the grounds upon which that difference of opinion is founded. But in doing this, sir, I cannot refrain from expressing, in the first instance, the very great satisfaction I feel at the temper and the moderation with which the motion was introduced, and with which, for so many reasons, I am particularly desirous that the discussion should be conducted. Happy, sir, am I also, that the manner in which the subject has been introduced has relieved me from the necessity of entering at large into those general principles and grounds which, when the question was dis cussed before, I felt myself compelled to do. observe with pleasure, that the application made by the petitioners has not been advanced as a claim of right, but of expediency. observe also, with equal pleasure, that the hon. gent. has argued it upon that ground; not that I mean to infer that the hon. gent. has abandoned the opinion he held upon that subject; but that in the application of the principles which have governed his conduct, he has thought proper to discuss the question upon the ground of expediency. That is the ground upon which I feel the measure ought alone to be discussed: for I cannot allow, that at any time, under any circumstances, or under any possible situation of affairs, it ought to be discussed or entertained as a claim or question of right. I, sir, have never been one of those who have ever held that the term emancipation is, in the smallest degree, applicable to tho repeal of the few remaining penal statutës to which the catholics are still liable. But, possibly, in my view of the grounds of expediency I may think it to be much more contradistinguished from the question of right than the hon. gent. does. He seems to consider that there is only a shade of difference between the expediency and the right: whereas my view of the difference is broad, evident, and fundamental. I consider right, sir, as independent of circumstances, and paramount to them, whilst expediency is connected with circumstances, and, in a great measure, dependent upon them. With regard to the admission of the catholics to franchises, to the elective franchise, or to any of those posts and offices which have been alluded to, I view all these points as distinctions to be given, not for the sake of the person and the individual who is to possess them, but for the sake of the public, for whose benefit they were created, and for whose advantage they are to be exercised. In all times, therefore, sir, and upon every occasion, whether relating to the Roman catholic or the protestant dissenter, to the people of Ireland, or to the people of England, I have always, from a due regard to the constitution, been of opinion, that we are bound to consider, not merely what is desired by a part, but what is best and most advantageous for the whole. And, therefore it is, sir, that I think it not sufficient to shew, that what is demanded is not likely to be prejudicial, but that it is proper to take a comprehensive view of all the circumstances connected with it, whe ther they relate to the time at which the to shut my eyes to this conviction; that a measure is proposed, the manner in which catholic, however honourable his intentions it is discussed, or the effect that is likely to may be, must feel anxious to advance the follow from the discussion. That, sir, is interests of his religion; it is in the very nak my view of contemplating the propriety of ture of man; he may disclaim and renounce acceding to the wishes of the catholics, or of this wish for a time, but there is no mait refusing them. It was upon that principle who is at all acquainted with the operations that I felt satisfaction in the repeal of those of the human heart who does not know that Jaws against the catholics which have been the catholic must feel that anxiety when abolished; and from the abolition of which ever the power and the opportunity may be I certainly am not one who infers that dan-favourable to him. But, if these guards ger to the country with which some gentle- and conditions to which I have alluded had men seem to be so deeply impressed. But, been applied, and which, could my wishes sir, deeply as I felt that satisfaction, I also have been accomplished, it would havē felt that in no possible case previous to the been my endeavour to have applied, I firmly union could the privileges now demanded believe no danger would have existed, and be given, consistently with a due regard to no injury could have been apprehended. I the protestant interest in Ireland, to the in- thought so on grounds different from those ternal tranquillity of that kingdom, the which have been stated by others: not be frame and structure of our constitution, or cause as catholics they had been engaged in the probability of the permanent connexion any of the scenes preceding the rebellion; of Ireland with this country. It is true, I do not mean, however, to say, that the sir, that after the union I saw the subject catholics were not engaged in it in greater. in a different light; but whilst that event numbers for the reasons that have been was in contemplation I did state, as the hon. stated.-I go further; though jacobin pringent. says, that the measure would make a ciples were the foundation of the rebellion, material difference in my opinion; but he yet I do not mean to deny, that the influence has also stated, what is very true, that I did of the priests, themselves tainted with jaco not make a distinct pledge. On the con- bin principles, might not have aggravated trary, I believe the line of argument I took the evil, though they were not the cause of was, that if it should be thought right to it. My idea, sir, was not to apply tests to give what the catholics required, it might the religious tenets of the catholics, but tests be given after the union with more safety applicable to what was the source and founto the empire; or if it were thought proper dation of the evil, to render the priests, into refuse giving it, that it might then be re- stead of making them the instruments of fused without producing those disastrous poisoning the minds of the people, depenconsequences which might have been ap- dent in some sort upon the government, and prehended before the union. I come then, thus links, as it were, between the governsir, to the present discussion perfectly free ment and the people. That, sir, would and unfettered. I certainly was of opinion, have been a wise and a comprehensive system; that under a united parliament those pri- that would have been the system which I yileges might be granted under proper guards should have felt it to be my wish, and and conditions, so as not to produce any thought it to have been my duty, to have danger to the established church or the pro- proposed. I never thought that it would testat constitution. And I remain this day have been wise or prudent to have thrown of that opinion, and I still think, if, from down rudely or abruptly the guards and other circumstances, there was no objection fences of the constitution; but did think, to complying with the demands of the ca- that if the system I have alluded to had been tholics, and if by a wish they could be car-deemed proper to be adopted, it ought to ried into effect, I own, sir, I see none of have been accompanied with those checks those dangers which have been urged by and guards, and with every regulation that some gentlemen, nor do I think that the could have given additional respect and inintroduction of a certain proportion of ca- fluence to the established church, to the tholics into the imperial parliament would support and protection of the protestant inbe likely to be productive of any influence terests, and to the encouragement of every or effect detrimental or injurious to the wel-measure that could tend to propagate and fare of the state, or the safety and security of the constitution. But, sir, in delivering This frank opinion, I do not mean wilfully spread the example of the protestant religion. These were the general views and intentioné I entertained. And if, sit, it had been pos |