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sible to have found that general concurrence the attention of parliament to this subject, which I so anxiously desired; if I could in the manner and with the prospects which have carried them into effect in the manner I wished, it is not now necessary for me to I have stated; if persons of more ability and state. All the explanation which I thought. experience than myself would have digested it my duty to give, I gave at that timethem, I am still inclined to think, that in- more I do not feel myself now called upon stead of being attended with those dangerous to give; and nothing shall induce me to enconsequences which some gentlemen ap- ter into further details upon this subject. I prehend, they would have afforded increased shall therefore now content myself with. security to the church, and have been fa- stating, that the circumstances which made vourable to the welfare of the state, to the me feel that it was then improper to bring stability of the constitution, and to the ge- forward this question, and which led to the neral strength and interest of the empire. resignation of the then administration, have But when I state this, sir, I must also re-made so deep, so lasting an impression upon mind the house, that I considered the period my mind, that so long as those circumstanof the union as the period favourable for the ces continue to operate, I shall feel it a duty adoption of such a measure; not because imposed upon me not only not to bring for any pledge had been given, but because ward, but not in any manner to be a party there was a greater likelihood that the mea- in bringing forward or in agitating this quessure might be adopted after the union than tion. Having said thus much, sir, upon before it. The period was favourable also the opinions. I then entertained, and upon on another account; favourable from the the principles which then, and I trust always recent impressions that might be expected will, govern my conduct, I think it right to. to be made on men's minds, of the probabi- add, that the whole of the plan which I had lity of increased security from the union; formed, the whole essence of the system from being amalgamated and incorporated which I meant to have proposed, was a mea-, with the imperial legislature, remote from sure of peace, of union, of conciliationthe dangerous influence that might at times a measure which I did hope would have had be supposed to operate upon, and overawe the effect of softening down all religious the local legislature of Ireland. Sir, I re- differences, of extinguishing all animosities, peat, that if under the recent impression of and of uniting all men of both religions in these circumstances I could have brought one common zeal for the preservation of the forward the measure as the first fruits of the constitution, and for the general happiness union, I should have hoped there might and prosperity of the empire. But, sir, dehave been a disposition to have received it sirous as I then was of proposing this meawithout rekindling those religious animo- súre,and sanguine as I was in my hopes of its sities, or reviving those contending interests, success, nothing could be further from my between catholic and protestant, which, intention than to bring it forward if there whenever they do exist, are most adverse to did not appear a rational prospect of its being the welfare, the prosperity, and the happi- carried, (not with unanimity, for upon such ness of the state. This, sir, was the view an important subject that I knew was imposin which I considered this most important sible), but with general concurrence; besubject; these were the objects which I cause I knew, that if it were brought forward wished, to attain; but circunstances, un- under other circumstances, instead of profortunate circumstances in my opinion, ren- ducing the effect I wished, it would only dered it at that period impossible to bring tend to revive those animosities which I forward the measure in the way in which I wished to extinguish, to aggravate those then hoped it might be practicable to bring difficulties which I wished finally to remove, it forward in the only way in which 1 Not being able, from the circumstances to think it ought at any time to be brought which I have alluded, to propose the meaforward--in the only way in which it could sure which I thought likely to be productive be brought forward, with advantage to the of such beneficial effects, I did then form claims of those whose petition is now under the determination not to press it at any pe consideration, or with any hope of recon- riod, unless I thought it could be done with ciling all differences, of burying all animo- that prospect of success, and with that gesities, and of producing that perfect union, neral concurrence, without which it can nein the advantages of which gentlemen on ver be beneficial. When I use the term geall sides so entirely concur. What the gr-neral concurrence. I am sure I shall not be cumstances were to which I allude, as hav- supposed ever to have been so visionary as ing at that time prevented me from calling to suppose that a question of such immense

importance, and upon which men's feelings even if it could now be carried, so far from and passions are so strongly excited, could producing conciliation and union, it would ever be carried with perfect unanimity, but tend, on the contrary, to disappoint all the I mean with that general concurrence which prospects of advantage which under other would have enabled us to gratify the wishes circumstances would be derived from it." of one party, without awakening the fears, Even those gentlemen who have argued the or exciting the jealousy of the other. most strongly in favor of this measure have Whatever gentlemen may think of the ab- candidly confessed, that in the present state stract fights of the petitioners, or of the of men's minds, it is not likely to be carried. expediency of complying with the prayer of I am sure I shall not be contradicted when I their petition, I am sure they will agree with say, that ever since the union this subject me in thinking, that the chance of extin- has in a very considerable degree attracted guishing all those animosities which have public attention; and that of late, notwithunfortunately prevailed, and of producing standing the other events which have occuthat perfect union which we all wish, must pied the public mind, it has been the subject depend upon the combination of circum- of much conversation both in public and stances under which the measure is brought private, particularly since the catholic peforward. Not having in any degree changed tition has been presented, and since the hon. my opinion upon this subject, regarding it gent. has given notice of his present motion; in the same point of view I did then, and and I should disguise ny real sentiments if retaining the same feelings, I must say that I did not say, that at present the prevailing at the present moment I think I see little sentiment is strongly against this measure; chance, I should rather say I see no chance, what circumstances may occur to overcome of its being carried at all, certainly not in that sentiment it is not for me to predict or that way which I meant, and in which way conjecture. In speaking of the probability only I think it can be productive of real ad- of carrying this question at this time, I canvantage to the petitioners, or of benefit to not but advert to what fell from the hon. the state, I mean as a measure of peace and gent. who opened the debate this day, reconciliation. If then, sir, the question is specting the decision which took place last not now to be carried, I think that to agi- night in another place. I know perfectly tate it, under such circumstances, will only well, that no man can mention the decision tend to revive those dissentions which we of another branch of the legislature for the wish to extinguish, to awaken all that purpose of influencing, much less of conwarmth and acrimony of discussion which trolling, the decision of this house. I know has heretofore prevailed, and to excite those there are many instances where differences hopes, which, if they are to be disappoint- of opinion have prevailed between this and ed, may be productive of the greatest mis- the other house of parliament, in which the chief. As to the chance of carrying the ques- sentiments of this house, in concurrence tion at present with general concurrenee, of with the public opinion, properly expressed, gratifying the catholics without offending have ultimately prevailed. I am as far as the protestants, of confirming the affections any man, sir, from wishing not to hold high of the one without raising the suspicions and the undoubted privileges of this house; but exciting the fears of the other, not only in if I am right in my general view of this Ireland but in England, I confess there ap- subject, I think the determination to which pears to me to be none. I lament it as much I am alluding ought not to be laid out of our as any man can do. I lament that the consideration, because it goes to the very impression which now prevails has taken essence of the measure itself, I mean as far place; many circumstances have combined as relates to the practical advantages that are to produce that impression, all of which to be derived from it. Supposing then that are to be deplored. I ask any gentleman we were all agreed as to the propriety of whether he does not believe, looking to the granting the prayer of this petition, is it not opinions of the members of the established our duty to consider what bad effects might church, of the nobility, of the men of be produced by the marked difference which property, of the middling and respectable would then subsist between this house and classes of society-I ask him, whether he the other branch of the legislature upon this does not believe, looking at the sentiments subject? If carried at all, it ought, as I have of the mass of the protestants of this coun- already stated, to be carried with general try, and of Ireland, that there is the great-concurrence, and when an endeavour is est repugnance to this measure, and that made to carry a measure, the object of

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his object is that every thing should be conceded to the catholics; let me ask the hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan) who supported the motion last night with such a splendour of eloquence, what effect this is likely to produce upon the catholics themselves? When the hon. member, or the hon. mover of the question, talk of the effect of disappointing hopes that have been raised, I trust they have over-rated and exaggerated it. But one of these gentlemen did state, that amongst the possible causes of a religious feeling having mixed and operated in the late rebellion, might be enumerated the hope held out by lord Fitzwilliam, that the claims of the cat tholics would, be taken into consideration. They allege the disappointment of that hope as one of the causes that might have tended to produce the rebellion. If that be their conviction, what must they think whọ wish to go into a committee upon the peti tion, and yet are of opinion that they still reserve to themselves the freedom of reject

which is to conciliate one part of his majesty's subjects, care must be taken not to shock the feelings of a much larger class of the community. Under such circumstances, when such an opinion has been given by another branch of the legislature, we are bound to take it into our consideration in deciding upon the line of conduct we ought to adopt, because this is a subject in which no man can act wisely or prudently who acts entirely from his own views or his own feelings. It is his duty to his country, to the catholics, and to the community, to look at it in a combined point of view, to consider all the probable effects of carrying it (if it were practicable) with such a strong sentiment prevailing against, or of failing to carry it, may produce. Upon this part of the subject there is one point on which I wish to say a few words. It has been urged by some gentlemen, that we ought to go into a committee, whatever we may resolve to do at last; and some of the minor grievances under which the catholics are said to labouring it altogether, or of rejecting it in its have been pointed out, upon which it is said most important parts? I submit this to the there can be no difference of opinion on the consideration of the house shortly, but dis propriety of granting them relief-such as tinctly; it rests upon grounds so obvious and the circumstance of catholics engaged in a so strong, that it will be taking up your military life coining over to this country, and time unnecessarily, to debate upon them. who are thereby exposed to the operation of I submit this with a wish that the measure the test act, which they are not at home. will be brought forward and carried with anyAnother circumstance which has been men-thing like a general concurrence. But, the tioned is, that the catholics in the army are circumstances which rendered it impossible not only to be allowed to have mass per- for me to urge and press it then, make it formed, but they are compelled to attend impossible for me to urge and press it now, protestant worship. Sir, I contend that feeling as I do, that to press it, and to fail, these points are much too unimportant to or to press it and even carry it with such a induce us to go into a committee upon a pe- strong opposition, are alternatives, both of tition which embraces the whole of this im- them so mischevious, that it will be difficult portant subject, and which excites the hopes to decide between them. Seeing, sir, what and fears of all the subjects of the united are the opinions of the times, what is the kingdom.—I again repeat, that I do lament situation of men's minds, and the senti-, that this subject has now been brought for- ments of all descriptions and classes of the ward; I lament for the sake of the catholics other branch of the legislature, and even the themselves, I lament for the general interest prevailing opinion of this house, I feel that of the country, that gentlemen have thought I should act contrary to a sense of my duty, proper to agitate this subject at this moment. and even inconsistenly with the original That gentlemen have a perfect right to ex-ground upon which I thought the measure ercise their judgement upon this subject I do not deny; I do not complain of their conduct; I only lament that they have felt it their duty to bring it forward at this period, and under the present circumstances; when, if they were to succeed, the conscquences would not be such as we all desire; and if they fail, they may be such as we must all regret. And now, sir, let me ask the hon. gent, who has brought forward the present motion, and who fairly avows that

ought to be brought forward, if I counten anced it under the present circumstances, or if I hesitated in giving my decided negative to the house going into a committee.

Mr. Windham rose and spoke in substance, as follows: Sir, I consider the question now before the house, as one naturally and' immediately the consequence of the legislative union established between Great Britain and Ireland, and que to which the catholics of Ireland were certainly taught to look for

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insisted on; if no measure is ever to pass in Eparliament which has not the unanimous sense of the country in its favour, prejudiĉe and passion may for ever triumph over reason and sound policy. But, sir, as long as a catholic remains in these countries, such objections will exist. They are founded upon the very essence of opinions, which you can never remove from those minds, on the very first principles of which they are rooted.

be wanting an outcry against the claims of the catholics. I should be glad to know what public question that ever came forward in this house has had in its favour such und

it? While we have to encounter prejudice and oppose confederacy, how is it possible that truth and reason can be victorious with unanimity? But to say that this house is to be deterred by popular clamour or prejudiced objections from exercising its fair judgment, is tantamount to a declaration that no disorders can be removed, no abuses corrected, no tyranny subdued. I therefore must resist and deprecate such arguments coming from the righ hon. gent. against this motion, as unparliamentary, unconstitutional, and dangerous. But, sir, I know of no reason why that measure which his majesty's minister, is of opinion was expedient, and ought to have been done four years ago, and may be done hereafter, ought not to be done

ward in the course of all the arguments urged in favour of that measure; both in and out of parliament. I think, and have long thought, it is that measure by which alone the great union of protestant and catholic can be brought about: When the proposition for the union was first brought forward, I had strong objections to the measure; and I was only reconciled to it upon the idea, that all disabilities attaching on the catholics were to be removed, and that the whole po-And so long as they exist, there never will pulation would be united in interests and affections. Believing this to be the case, sir, and finding that impediments were started to this measure much stronger than I was prepared to apprehend, I relinquished the ad-nimity, that there could be no objection to ministration, because I thought the measure indispensable to the safety of this empire; and I have seen nothing since to change my opinion on that point. The right hon. gent. has avowed that his opinion was then the same; and surely if it was expedient in 1801; if the circumstances of the country then imperiously called for its adoption; surely it is still more loudly called for by the circumstances of the present moment; and I know of no alteration that has taken place in the circumstances of the empire that can be truly said to render it less expedient now. The right hon. gent., in every thing which he has offered as argument ; against the question itself, has referred to times past; but how those arguments can apply to the present day he has not stated.now and as to any danger that can arise The right hon. gent. has said that many per- from bringing forward the question now, as sons are averse to the measure, that the is alledged without the chance of success, the sclergy and the nobility are opposed to it, only mischief I can apprehend is from the and that the public mind is not unanimous in refusal, which must recoil upon ministers its favour. Why, sir, if the catholics are themselves, as the cause of it. The whole to be told they must wait until all the ob- of the right hon. member's speech upon this jections which passion, or prejudice, or ig-subject is indefinite, full of mystery, and, norance, or caprice may suggest, are perfectly silent; and that no man is to be found in or out of parliament opposed to their wishes, I am afraid their hopes of success must be postponed to a very distant day in-fantastical claim of right, but a plain and deed: but, sir, I am not aware of this very common right to an equal share and particlgeneral sentiment of the leading clergy, the pation in the benefits of the constitution unnobility, or the public at large, against this der which they live. I am myself disposed measure; unless we take the speeches ut- to rest the principal part of the claim upon tered in this or another house of parliament, expediency, without excluding right. But opposed by other speeches, at least equally the right hon. gent, will hear only of expestrong and independent, for that general diency. But this sort of attack upɔ̃u princi*sentiment; or unless we consider the decla- ples of right cannot be maintained. Rights, rations of a few individuals, in different in the strictest sense of the word, as employquarters of the kingdom, or a few newspa-ed by the right hon. gent, no where exist: per publications from préjudiced authors, as expressive of that general sentiment. But if arguments drawn from such sources are

to me at least, not clearly intelligible. The right hon. gent. has talked of expediency as distinct from right. But the claim of the catholics is not set up upon what is termed a

but even on the ground of right as a cisim of nature, the cathole petition, F say, is founded in justice." They state that what

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they ask is founded on political expediency; vinists, and Lutherans; many of the Greek and the policy and expediency of acceding church, and many Jews. Often had even to their petition, is only rebutted by alieg- Mahomet been called in to the aid of Calvin, ing, that to grant their claims would be at- and the crescent glittered on the walls of tended with the greatest danger to our pro- Buda. At length, in 1791, at the most testant establishments in church and state. violent crisis of disturbance, a diet was What this danger is, from the best consider- called, and passed a decree, by which they ation I have been able to give to the subject, secured the fullest and freest exercise of reI am utterly at a loss to discover; the onus ligious faith, worship and education; orof proof lies upon those who plead that dan- dained that churches and chapels should be ger. But, looking to all the dangers; as built for all sects without description; that well these which those who oppose this mo- the protestants of both confessions should tion plead, as those which there may be any depend on their own spiritual superiors reasonable ground to apprehend, I think alone, freed from swearing by the usual that to grant now the claims of the catholics oaths, namely by the holy virgin Mary, is by much the less dangerous policy to pur- the saints, and chosen of God." And then, For the present, however, I shall not sir, came the great and leading clause, trespass on the attention of the house by ar- granting, in the fullest extent, every point guing the question further; I shall content which is in the utmost contemplation of the myself with entering my solemn protest present petitioners to this house The against the species of argument urged by" public offices and honours, whether high his majesty's ministers against this petition," or low, great or small, shall be givenão and declaring my firm resolution to persevere "natural-born Hungarians, who have dein this object, which I consider as best cal- "served well of their country, and posseses culated for the safety of that very protestant "the other requisite qualifications, without establishment to which it is said to be inimi- any respect to their religion." This, sir, cal; and I have the strongest hope, anxiety, was the policy pursued in an Hungarian and confidence, that the period is not far re- diet, consisting of nearly 400 members, in mote when this house will see the justice a state whose form of government apand sound policy of conceding this salutary, proaches more nearly to our own than alwise, and beneficent measure. most any other in Europe, with a Roman Sir John Newport.-Sir, though I natu- catholic establishment of great opulence; rally feel solicitous (feeling and thinking as adopted, too, at a period when it was to be I now and always have done upon this sub- subjected to the severest trial as to its social ject) to assign my reasons for the vote I and political effects. It has passed that fery shall this night give on a question of such ordeal: it has undergone a trial of fourteen vital importance to the empire in general, revolutionary years, equal, in fact, to the and Ireland in particular; yet even under trial of a century less disturbed and agitated: this impression, the lateness of the hour and what have been its effects? When the will prevent me from trespassing more than French advanced in their course like a tora few short minutes on the attention of the rent, within a few days march of Vienna, house; nor should I now have risen but for the Hungarians, before so divided, and so the purpose of viewing this subject upon disaffected to each other, rose en masse, as the untrodden ground of an example, so it is termed, "in the sacred insurrection," precisely opposite in all its circumstances, to preserve their sovereign, their rights and. and bearing so directly on the temperate re- liberties: and the apprehension of their apquests of the petitioners, as to call forcibly proach dictated to the reluctant Buonaparté for your notice. It is the result of an ex- the immediate signature of the treaty of periment fairly tried upon a great nation, Leoben. Such, sir, have been the effects possessing above seven millions of inhabi- of such a measure in Hungary. The Rotants, varying most widely in their religious mish hierarchy in Hungary exists in all its tenets, convulsed by the difference of those former splendour and opulence. Never has tenets, and the restrictions founded upon an attempt been made to diminish it: and them during many centuries; yet at length there, almost alone in civilized Europe, at procuring internal peace and tranquillity, least in that quarter of it, have revolutionary and external strength and respect, by the principles failed of making the smallest sucsacrifice of those restrictions. The nation, cessful inroad. Does this case, or does it sir, was Hungary; of her seven millions of not, as I have stated, bear directly on the nhabitants one half were protestants, Cal-case of the catholics of Iresand? Has a

VOL. IV.

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