able to do. He said he should not be glad to have the ability to do it, and he should be ashamed to have the wish; but, it was with regret that he adverted to the opinion of a learned gentleman opposite (Mr. Ponsonby) who, in answer to what he called the cas lumnies of the hon. and learned doctor's speech yesterday, had said that the hon, doc

Roman catholic potentate, not the least attached to his religion in Europe, set you such an example, and given you decided proof of its great and happy effects, by such a trial? And do you, a protestant legislature, fear to submit your religion to a similar test? Will you eternally keep up the wall of proscription, when they have thrown it down? This, sir, affords a direct refu-tor himself was a contradiction of those catation of the assertion made in the petition from the city of Dublin, (see p. 218) which states that the Roman catholics are at present placed upon a footing of political power not enjoyed by any other dissenters from the established religion in any other state of Europe. Convinced as I am, sir, of the wisdom and sound policy of acceding to this petition, I shall give my most cordial assent to the motion of the hon. member who so ably introduced this debate.

Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald (knight of Kerry) protested, that the conviction upon his mind upon the present question was, that if the decision was not certain, he would anticipate the most fatal and dangerous consequences arising from it. One point only he wished to direct the attention of the house to. He had uniformly supported this measure, while he had the honour to sit in the Irish house of commons, and gave his vote for the union of the two countries, with the conviction on his mind, that the present measure would immediately follow. His only hope at present was, and he implored the house most earnestly, that if they should refuse to go into a committee upon the petition, the gentlemen of this country particularly would obliterate from their minds the gross and scandalous calumnies which had been thrown out against the catholics of Ireland, and which would only be cast back with increased disgrace upon the fabricators. He spoke as a man of candour, and he again hoped the gentlemen of England would not be led away by such foul calumny and viru

lent abuse.

Mr. Archdall said, as the subject was so much exhausted, he should not enter into the discussion at large, but rose only to justify, if he could, the opinion on which he should give his vote, and to advert to some opinions which other gentlemen had given, and from which, very respectfully, and, indeed, reluctantly, he confessed he must dissent. In this he should avoid every thing which could irritate the catholics; it was sufficient for him if his conviction compelled him to oppose their petition. He never world affront their feelings, which no neither wished nor was

lumnies; that they could not be true, and
that the Irish were not of the sanguinary
temper which had been misrepresented, was
proved by the hon. and learned doctor's
walking the streets of this metropolis in safe-
ty. He said he would not call such an opi-
nion as this a hint, for it was in truth, very
broadly expressed, nor was it necessary to
notice it, farther than by saying, it reminded
him of a familiar and ludicrous story of the
quaker and the mad dog. "I will not beat.
thee nor kick thee, but I will turn thee out
and give thee an ill name." He was sure!
however, that the learned doctor would still.
continue to walk the streets in safety. Hel
said, he could not agree with the hon. gent.
who introduced the petition; and who had:
represented the catholics as having given
support to the union, and as having for that
reason a right to claim the object of their
petition. He said, on whatever ground their
claims might be founded, they could not be
founded on that, for it was well known the
support they gave the union was a very poor.
one. He would tell the house what it was.
It would appear in three instances, which he
would mention without any remark: first;. 1
however, wishing the house to recollect,
that the public affairs of the catholics had.
been used for many years to be conducted
by a select committee, consisting of gentle-
men the most distinguished in the catholic
body for their property, principles and ta-.
lents, and in number about sixty. Of these
the late lord Kenmare was at the head. A
most amiable and respectable nobleman.
Who was at the head of it now, he did not. ›
know. He said, when the union was first
proposed to the house of commons of Ire-
land, it was scarcely considered enough to
be debated; it was defeated; for, though it
was indeed carried through the house by the
accidental majority of a single voice, this
was defeat sufficient to induce the prudence.
of government to postpone it to the next ses
sion of parliament. On this occasion how
did the catholics act? It was an occasion, so.
important that they could not have been m
different to it, and must have had an opinion
one way or the other; but they keptalout

and kept silence, which might be interpreted | concession gradual; because, all which is right, cannot always be done at once. He said, the embarrassment of the question was not what more was to be done, but that at present we could do nothing; that in this point of view, the catholics had a good cause" badly conducted: A cause which the protestants had contributed to make good, and which the catholics had conducted badly. By this he did not mean that the catholics were bad subjects, for he believed them to

either way; they said nothing, and they did nothing, and this was the first instance of such support as they gave to the union. The union, however, was still going on; but while it was uncertain which way it would go, the catholics at last broke through their silence, and one of their select committee came with a message to some of the gentlemen who conducted the opposition to the union, which message in substance, and he believed in words, was this, if you, gen-be loyal; nor that they were bad men, for tlemen, will now join us in insisting on our he believed them as good as the protestants; emancipation, we will join you in opposing nor that this was a bad petition, for it was the union." Those gentlemen thought it very well and respectfully worded; nor yet best to decline this overture, and this is the that their cause was badly conducted by: second instance of the support which the being placed in the hands of the honourable catholics gave to the union. But the next gentleman opposite. He said, that when session of parliament was now approaching, the catholics were once determined to apply and this great measure of the union had now to that house at that time, which was all the been so much considered, that addresses in badness of conduct which he meant to men-1 its favour came from every county in the tion, and when the king's minister had dekingdom. Among the signatures of the pro- clined to interfere, there certainly was no testants to these addresses, appeared the sig-interference more powerful or proper for natures of many catholics; catholic noble- their purpose than that which they had soli-" men, and catholic clergy, and some catholic cited from the hon. gentleman, who, he said,” individuala sent addresses from themselves. was so much distinguished every where as a But, was there any address in favour of this friend to religious and civil liberty, whose measure from the catholic body? No! Was temper invited confidence and good will there any address from the select committee? from every body, and whose talents' comNo! Was there any summons, notice, or manded every body to respect him. What advertisement for any public meeting under he thought bad in conducting this petition any denomination, where the influence of was, that it should be introduced at this time respectable catholics, individually or collec-by any interference or from any motive he tively, might have been of use in promoting the union? No such thing! In spite of this, however, the union passed into a law in parliament, and this was the third and the last instance of that support which is boasted to have been given by the catholics to the union. How far, on this ground, their claims could be entitled to success, he would leave the house to judge. He said, there were other grounds, on which at another time, those claims might appear more probable to succeeds for, recollecting the concessions which were made to them in the year 1793, and at the express recommendation of government, in which he had concurred with many gentlemen then present; recollecting that they had pledged themselves in an address almost unanimous to the crown, that they would consider on such measures as should tend to unite in sentiment all descriptions of his majesty's subjects; recollecting, that to carry this purpose into effect, how much there was still to do, he thought the catholics had good cause to expect that more would be done. He said it might be wise to make

thought it bad to risk the importance of the precedent, for though in sach a case the precedent could not be repeated often enough to become a habit, still it was bad to familiarize the people of England to the circum-1) stance of the house of commons putting a negative on any request from the catholic body of Ireland. He said, it was still worse' to risk the importance, or if gentlemen chose, of the misrepresentation of its being said, that the catholic body was exhibited in the house of commons, as the ally of a party. He said that the parties in the house of commons were fit only to contend with each other, that the catholic body should look to neither of them, and neither of them should look to the catholic body. The hon. gent. said, that for such reasons as these, and for others which might be mentioned, without entering into a religious or political disquisi-tion of the question, he should concur with the right hon. gent, on the floor in declining to refer it to a committee.

The hon. Henry Augustus Dillon professed his determined support to the petition,

and although he had hitherto generally sup ported the measures of the right hon. gent. opposite, yet as he had determined to resist this petition he could no longer augur favourably of his intentions towards Ireland, and in conscience and in honour could no longer give him his support. He considered the stories which some gentlemen had been pleased to tell that house, as gross calumnies, meant to mislead them. He disclaimed the charge urged in the course of the debate, that this was a party measure. It was a measure involving the rights and liberties of several millions of his majesty's loyal subjects; and it would be wantonly to sport with their feelings, that this measure should be considered merely as a measure of party. It was a claim that closely attached to the safety of Ireland. Martial law it had been thought necessary to proclaim in Ireland, and the habeas corpus act was there suspeuded. The hearts of the Irish people had been alienated by severities and oppressions; and government deemed it impossible to carry on its measures but by strength and coercion. But, if this measure was allowed to pass, such expedients would cease to be any longer necessary, and the mass of that brave and grateful people would present a firm, an iron bulwark for the protection of this country against the designs of this enemy.

which I shall briefly and plainly advance in: support of that vote.-It is impossible that I, in common with every member of this: house, must not feel affected by the torrent of eloquence poured forth by the hon. mo ver and supporters of the motion; but I have not been convinced; and while I admired, I was awakened to a sense of the ne cessity of recurring to those obligations: which I accepted with the great and honour-! able trust reposed in me by my constituents; and their sentiments on the subject now be fore us have been too recently and too strongly expressed in the petition on your table, for me to affect to misunderstand, or with propriety oppose: neither can I be insensible to the paramount duty pressing upon me to support the constitution, as it has been entrusted to my care; and unless in-structed to the contrary by the express will of my constituents, I shall endeavour, at the appointed season, to yield up my trust as unimpaired as can depend upon my hum ble but zealous exertions.-I know, sir that the doctrine has often been advanced, that a member of parliament is not to be li mited in his duty by local attachment; that he is the representative not of a part but of the whole. This I reject; and were I to admit it generally, I should feel my own case a strong and overruling exception.AT great capital possesses peculiar and com Mr. Shaw (member for Dublin) spoke as manding influence over the representative; follows: Although sir, I wish I had not to and to attempt to despise its sense, or divert address you on the subject before the house, its interests, is that bold and perilous kind ! yet I cannot reconcile to my sense of public of enterprise which I confess I dare not unsil duty to give a silent vote upon the occasion; dertake. I feel embarked in one bottom nor, though that duty be painful, will with the city of Dublin; and I never shall shrink from its open and manly performance. set my opinion above that of its electors, norla Intimately connected as I am with the pros-wilfully act in contradiction to their wishes, perity of iny native land, it must be expected that upon any question connected therewith, I shall give a sincere vote. Those who know me will believe that I shall do so this might, in honest accordance with my conscience, my judgment, and what I conceive to be the sense of my constituents. In common cases, profession of principles and independence would only appear superfluous; but, where prejudices are to be combated, and popularity is perhaps divided, I feel it not unnecessary to assert my complete independence, alike of ministerial influence and of popular clamour, should the one be supposed adverse, or the other favourable to the prayer of the petition. Having thus far trespassed on the house to disclaim, in my vote, all sinister influence, I now beg its indulgence to a few reasons,

But, sir, while I profess to obey implicitly t what I conceive of know to be the will of my constituents, I deprecate the remotest idea that I entertain a feeling hostile to my catholic countrymen, or that I am not asɛ sincerely attached to their real interest ass any gent. who this night supports the peti tion on your table. Sir, I know that if those interests had been honestly and truly conen sulted, that petition would not now be under discussion; a subject of such importance, į involving such a variety of interests, and ex-s citing such warmth of feeling, would never b have been brought forward at such a time as this, nor have been made an instrument to embarrass the executive power, when thest completest unanimity within and withoutor these doors is necessary to oppose the most s formidables and malignant enemy that ever

our liberties and our laws? No, sir; and until some reconciling mean can be adopted, let us remain as we are, and all unite in maintaining against the comon enemy that constitution so superior to all others, and which is the sole refuge of civil liberty in this quarter of the world. I ask pardon for having occupied the time of the house soit long; but having the honour to represent Į the capital of that country, whose interests. are so vitally involved in the present discuss sion, I felt it imperative upon me to lay be. 3 fore the house my reasons for voting againstri the present motion.

a

threatened our political existence.The petitioners support their claims by the assertion of their loyalty. If that loyalty, is questioned, it is not by me. No man has greater confidence in the loyalty of the Irish catholic, when left to the genuine influence of his own heart; but I must remark, that the petition on your table holds out an indirect threat to parliament, and by asking you to do away those distinctions which make a foreign enemy rely upon the aid of disaffection, it in some degree admits, that should you not accede, such aid may be given, should the occasion offer. In the event of such a trial, I know the superior strength of Mr. Hiley Addington.I rise, sir, mere Irish loyalty, and that my country was never ly to give an explanation on one point, in better prepared to meet and to crush a fo- which I am sure the liberality of the house reign or domestic foe. But, sir, I am wil will go with me; it is too on a point in which ling for my own part distinctly to acquit the I think the hon. gent. who opened the des a petitioners of any such meaning; and I wish bate will not be disinclined to be set right the Irish catholic better than that he should In the course of yesterday's debate one of derive from our fears what our prudence and his arguments was, the hope that was held inclination would not grant him. I feel an out at the time of the union, that catholic anxiety for his honour as well as his inte- emancipation was likely to follow that great s rest; and I trust, that whatever he may re- measure, and he was pleased to quoterao ceive on a future day from this house, shall speech from a noble friend of mine (lord. be the result of cool, mature, and impartial Sidmouth) in which he quoted part of a let deliberation, and be given to him in a man- ter written from an hon. and learned gent. ner consonant to that dignified weight which | (Dr. Duigenan) to an hon. gent. (Mr. GratInwish every class of my countrymen to tan) now a member of this house. Ther maintain in the scale of public opinion. hon. and learned gent. did explain that pas Should the day come when every civil dis-sage perfectly correct. Now, sir, I will finction shall be removed, I wish the boon only add one word more. If the hon. gent. unaccompanied by reluctance and distrust; had gone further he would have found that: I wish it to be when the Irish catholic is re- what my noble relation did say, was this lieved from the odium and suspicion derived" that if he was put to the necessity of from his foreign connexions and infiuences, and when the directing head of his church shall not be the instrument and slave of that sanguinary despot, who is the implacable foe of the constitution and liberties of this empire. But, sir, is the house prepared to entertain this petition without going farther? What is to become of the English catholic and English dissenter? Sir, I should be ashamed to look the latter or either in the face, if I committed such flagrant injustice as to exclude them alone from the privileges now required of us. Without intending any invidious comparison, I know that his majesty does not possess a more loyal, sincerely Mr. John Latouche Sir; it is with great attached, and valuable subject than the Irish regret that I differ on this question from a dissenter and the English, dissenter may very respectable part of my constituents; well be supposed not less meritorious. If men for whose sentiments I shall ever enthere are tests to which those professing cer- tertain the greatest respect. The corporas tain creeds cannot subscribe, are they alone tion of the city of Dublin, who have peti to be bound by the influence of conscience, tioned against the claims of the catholics, and its dominion denied where it should have ever been loyal to their king and conmost prevail, and where it is the bond of stitution; zealous supporters of the protes

chusing between the total emancipation of the catholics, or the re-enactment of ther: penal laws, in such an alternative he would prefer the latter as the lesser evil. Her hoped, however, that the legislative union would remove the necessity of such an alternative." I trust I shall be pardoned for making this short explanation. I agree wither all that has been said as to the loyalty of the catholics; but, believing that granting the prayer of the petition would occasion a re volution in the laws of the land, and lead to the repeal of some of the wisest of them, I shall certainly give my vote against it.

the blessings and enjoyments of the constitution to this population, you will have them ranged not against you but for you, But while distinctions, and inequalities exist. while you permit an appeal to their passions and perhaps to their reason, that though they equally contribute their property with their protestant fellow subjects; though they have spent and are daily spending their blood in defence of the constitution; though by their exertions they have added to the laurels and contributed to the safety of the empire; that though they have patiently and cheerfully. shared with the protestant equal dangers in time of war; yet they are not allowed to share equal advantages in the hour of peace: such an appeal must have some weight upon the mind, and though it would not separate; those who have still many reasons to be at

tant establishment: and did I conceive that going into the committee would endanger that establishment, there is no one who would be more ready to give a negative to the motion of my hon. friend; but so far from thinking that the measure proposed would weaken that constitution, I am convinced it would not only tend to confirm that establishment, but also strengthen the foundations upon which rests the security of the empire. The advantages to be derived from the adoption of this motion have been ably proved to be considerable in number and great in benefit; and, in my opinion, it has not been proved to this house, that any danger is likely to ensue from it. Granting for a moment, what I do not allow, but what the most violent opposers of the catholics could urge against them, that there exists in a part of that body of men a decided animo-tached to the constitution; yet, by destroys sity to the British constitution, and a violent ing the possibility of its being made, you desire to effect its ruin; granting, for the weaken the efforts of your enemies. It is sake of argument, that such is the disposi- these distinctions that have given rise to a tion, such is the object of men amongst the spirit of party, that has been the misfortune catholics, the means of effecting their pur- of Ireland; that has constantly and uniformpose and accomplishing their wishes would ly checked its progress towards improve be totally destroyed by the measure pro- ment in time of peace, and I am sure in; posed this night. Will the house consider creased its dangers in time of war. By rewhat are the means by which the disaffected moving the conviction in one man's mind would endeavour to obtain their object? It that he possesses superior advantages, in the has been already clearly proved, that admit-other that, he labours under disabilities and ting catholics to seats in parliament could restraints, by taking away this double connever, in the opinion of any man in this viction you will give a death blow to party. house, give them sufficient weight in it to spirit; for it is by this policy alone that the carry measures destructive to the constitu- violent of both parties have been able to agi-.tion. It cannot be supposed that the num- tate and irritate; I should almost have said, ber of fish catholics, whether 20, 40, or exasperate the minds of the people against even 100, that would be returned, could each other, even at times when the situation ever prevail on the remaining 558 English of the country and the danger of the state and Scotch members to unite with them in imperiously demanded harmony and unanithe destruction of a constitution they all ve- mity. This subject has been so ably argued nerate; which has raised their country to on this side of the house, and so feebly, in the height it now is placed in; for which my opinion, on the other, that I feel it is, their ancestors fought and bled; and for but pressing on the patience of the house to whose defence I trust, if called upon, we are urge any thing more in favour of the mo all ready to risk our lives. No, sir, it never tion. But I cannot avoid stating how much could be by parliament that they could hope will be gained by the destruction of all party to overturn parliament itself; but, possess-spirit. Consider Ireland with a liberal mind, ing as they do a population of nearly four you will lament the disunion of her people,... millions, would it not be by that physical but look at the situation of Europe, and the force, aided and assisted by a foreign power, contest in which we are engaged, you will that they could alone hope for a probability not only look at it with sorrow, but you will of accomplishing their objects of overturn- see the necessity of endeavouring to harmo ing the constitution and separating the two nize and unite. We may hope to defend.. countries? It is by arraying this population Ireland by having the command of the seas, against you that they could alone be formi-by blockading the fleets of our enemies, this dable: but by adopting this measure you mode of defence has failed already, and may will remove for ever the remotest possibility again fail, but give to Ireland, to all its peoof their doing so; by giving an equality inple, an equal interest in the defence of the