go into a committee to see whether we can- principle flower of his eloquence consisted not give either, because we cannot give both. in the repetition of the word “must!” He There are two very different points in this seemed to think, that the fundamental laws question. Gentlemen speak as if they thought of the church of England "must" be re none but members of the church of Eng-pealed by granting the prayer of the catho land were capable of sitting in parliament. lics. The exclusion of the catholics from But do not dissenters sit in this house? seats in parliament, and the existence of the However, in point of doctrine, the church test acts, are the props," according to the of England differs from the catholics, yet it right hon. and learned gent.,' which support does not differ more than from the dissenters. the church of England. What, then, wis With regard to the maintenance and esta- the state of the church of England in the blishment of the church of England, there reigns of Elizabeth, of James the first, and cannot be more difference between the ca- Charles the first? Were these princes not tholics, than there is between the dissenters the heads of the church as effectually as his and the churchmen. We have forty-five present majesty; nay, "would it not bé members in this house, who are of a pro- deemed the grossest abomination to doubt, fessed establishment different from our own, even, that Charles the first fell a martyr to and they are not members of the most tole- the church of England? Yet, throughout 'rant sect. It is true, that from the bias of the reigns of these princes, Roman catholics their education, from their intellectual at- sat in parliament, and the test act had no tainments, from the improvement of their existence. Granting the thirty-nine articles miuds, and from their enlightened under- of the church of England to be not repug standing, they are above narrow religious nant to the free principles of the constitu prejudices; yet from the profession of their tion as established in the reign of king Wil faith, they are not more liberal or tolerant liam; yet the homilies which follow aresby than the Roman catholics. The Roman ca- many stated to be an absolute condemnation tholics are charged with saying, there is no of the very thing which took place at the salvation for heretics, and the Scots kirk time of the revolution. Nay, did not Sa says, it is blasphemy to assert that any can cheverel openly attack, and upon the autho be saved who are not of their faith. Out of rity of these homilies, stigmatise that great these forty-five members, not more than proceeding as impious, and utterly destruc three or four could be persuaded to decide tive of the church of England Now, with us in favour of the repeal of the test with regard to those learned places which act. It is said, how can we employ per- form a repository for the essential doctrines sons in office who are not of the established of religion, I mean the universities, in one religion. In Ireland they are acceptable, of which (the university of Oxford); I had Because there is no test act. If it is said that the honour to receive part of my early edu we want to put the catholics in a better si- cation, if I was to produce the decree of tuation than the dissenters, let it be recol- that university of 1688, against limited go Tected that we are talking of Ireland. But vernment, describing it as one of those is it supposed that the test act is the means things which lead to atheism, what would of assuring that every man shall be a mem- be said of it? Some of the best of men ber of the church of England? Do we not have come from that university, None more know, that in the reign of queen Anne, so than the right hon. and learned gent, Bills of occasional conformity were passed; but I do beg, to use a plain homely phrase, and that in the reign of George I. many of that they will not throw stones whore win the dissenters only took the sacrament to dows are made of glass. I do not advise the show their disposition in favour of the esta-high church party to look so narrowly into blished church, however they might not agree as to parts of the liturgy? Will any body say that taking the sacrament provés a man to be a supporter of the church of England? May not a dissenter take the sacrament, and yet consider the liturgy of the church of England as the most consummate bigotry? This leads me to another part of subject, which was stated by right hon. and learned gent. (Sir W: Scott), who, I flatter myself, I may call my friend. The VOL. IV.

the history of the catholics, and into all the violence of their decrees, in order to dis qualify them from being amalgamated and reconciled to the constitution of this cour try. It has been said by an hon, and learned gent., that the Roman catholics wish to over, turn the established religion of the country. To this I answer, that there are good subjects of all sects and persuasions, in atl countries, who dissenting from the establish ed religion, yet pay obedience to the opin

10 banged of sub vaga

ion of the majority. I am surprised it land? In the first place, the catholics of should have been said by an hon and learned England have not petitioned. I have no gent., (the attorney general) that if he was doubt as to the propriety of putting the caa catholic in a country where the protestant tholics of England on the same footing. I church was established, and he had the have no doubt they would finally obtain the power, he would exercise it to weaken the same privileges. Those who know the caestablished religious government. I have tholics of England, who know the charactoo good an opinion to think so of him. If ter of the lower ranks of the people, are -every man was to conceive himself at liberty, sensible how little danger would result from because he differed from the established re- the catholic peers sitting in the house of ligion of a country, to attempt to overturn lords, or catholic members in the house of it, the general tendency of such a principle commons. Every man must perceive that would be to destroy all peace in the world. it would be beneficial to the country, parti I do not believe any good catholic would so cularly at a time when every man is called act; I am sure no good subject, who loves upon to shew his zeal in the service, and in his country, ought so to act. The question the general cause of the empire. I have is this. Here are persons who apply to you, only to add, in answer to an hon. gent. op-not for exclusive privileges, but simply to posite, that I was in Ireland a great while be placed on a footing with all the other of ago; but it did not appear to me that the his majesty's subjects. It is a claim of jus-condition of the country was calculated to tice. If you refuse it, the burthen of proof lies on you, to shew the inconvenience or danger of granting their claim. Nothing of the sort has been proved; you have argued it only by referring to old times, differing from the present. The question comes to this, whether, in the state in which we are, it can be the conduct of a wise and prudent government to separate from itself so large a proportion of the population of the country as the people of Ireland? No statesman, no man who can judge of the affairs of the world, will think so. I should hope that those who wish well to the country, will support my motion. If it should however unfortunately fail, we shall all have done our duty in arguing the question, with a view to induce those to adopt our opinion, who are at present under a fatal delusion with regard to this momentous subject. I should notice one thing; it is, that you have raised this question, and not the petition. The petition has nothing of the seeds of turbulence in it. You will, I trust, draw the hopes of Ireland to this country, make the people of Ireland look to us as their best reliance, and prevent their recurring to any criminal measures.-I should now sit down, but for the observation of an hon. baronet (sir W. Dolben). He says, why should you give all this to the catholics of Ireland, and pot grant the same to the catholics of Eng-mɔrning.

reconcile gentlemen who visited it, to its general laws. The gentlemen of Ireland ought to be listened to with very considerable attention. From what I have seen in the course of this debate, I think I shall find, on the division, that I shall have the honour of dividing with more of the gentlemen of that country, than ever I had on any former occasion. I believe it will be long before the speeches we have heard from them will be forgotten. The question is important in the highest degree. The only way of putting an end to the hopes of the people of Ireland will be by creating despair, and if ever I hear that they are de prived of those hopes they ought to entertain, I shall despair of those blessings, of that mutual good-will and reciprocal sympathy, without which England can never rely on the effectual and sincere co-operation and assistance of Ireland against the common enemy.

The house then divided, when there ap peared

For Mr. Fox's motion
Against it.

124 336

212

Majority against the motion

Adjourned at five o'clock on Wednesday

Since our Report of the Speeches of Lord REDESDALE and the Earl of SUFFOLK in the House of Lords, on the 10th and 13th of May, upon Lord Grenville's Motion for a Committee on the ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION (see pp. 711 and 742) was put to press, we have been favoured with the following correct Copies of their Lordships Speeches.

K

Lord Redesdale observed that the motion | land thought fit to reform what it deemed to before the house was in point of form, that be corruption and abuse in the christian the house should resolve itself into a com-church; to abolish the usurped authority of mittee to consider of the petition on the ta- the court of Rome, from which it conceived ble;" and the noble baron who had made the corruption and abuse had sprung; and to the motion had intimated, that in the com- require the clergy of Ireland, claiming the mittee it would be open to any lord to sug- benefits of the ecclesiastical establishment of gest any partial measure: but it was evident the country, to yield obedience to the sovethat the noble lord himself conceived that reign power of the state, and to abandon the nothing short of the entire object of the pe- powers assumed contrary to the ancient tition could be suggested; and the petition- laws, and paramount that sovereignty; and ers had themselves clearly stated that object when, to inforce obedience to its laws, it reto be "an equal participation, upon equal quired all its subjects to withdraw from comterms with their fellow subjects, of the full munion with the see of Rome, as inconsisbenefits of the British laws and constitution." tent with the reformation thus attempted: Of that constitution the maintenance of the such of the people of Ireland as thought fit, protestant religion, as the established reli- notwithstanding, to persist in holding comgion of the government, and the exclusion of munion with that see, also thought fit, not the Roman catholic religion from the admi- only to refuse obedience to the legislature in nistration of that government, had become a point for which they might allege religious fundamental principles, long deemed essen- scruples, but likewise to refuse, and those tial to the preservation of the liberty, both who now profess to hold communion with religious and political, of the country: and the see of Rome still refuse, to acknowledge by those laws, of the benefit of which the the validity of those laws by which the powpetitioners sought an equal participation, the ers and revenues of the church-establishment strongest provisions were made for the sup- were transferred to such of the clergy as subport of the protestant religion, and the ex-mitted to the change, and by which all eccleclusion of the Roman catholic from important political power. When, therefore, the petitioners called upon their lordships to give them an equal participation of the British laws and constitution, they either proposed to the house to be guilty of a gross fallacy, or they called upon their lordships to alter those laws, and to change that constitution; for, consistently with the existing laws and constitution, the equal participation sought by the petition could not be had. The equal participation claimed by the petition was clearly an equal participation in all powers, as well as in all benefits: an equal participation in whatever might form the constitution of the country in church and state. That such was their object was manifest; not only from the language of the petition, but from the state in which the Roman catholic church was zealously maintained in Ireland, importantly different from the condition of the Roman catholic church in England, or in any other country in Europe, where the protestant was the established religion of the country. For when the legislature of Ire

siastical jurisdiction was made subject (as by the ancient law it had been subject) to the control and coercion of the sovereign power of the state; denying therefore one essential principle of the constitution, the subjection of the ecclesiastical to the civil power. Accordingly, the Roman catholics of Ireland have ever since maintained, and still maintain, a complete hierarchy, in direct and manifest opposition, not merely to the positive law, but to this essential and fundamental principle of the constitution; representing that hierarchy as the only lawful successors of the ancient clergy of Ireland, assuming all the powers, and claiming all the revenues, of that clergy, treating the clergy of the reformed religion, placed in the various offices of the church by the laws and in conformity to the principles of the constitution, as usurpers; and refusing obedience to all laws framed to curb the encroachments of the papacy on the sovereign power before as well as since the reformation. Denying, therefore, to the legislature of the country all power over the ranks, dignities, and authori

ties, and even the revenues of the church; | laity. It was absurd, therefore, to suppose and thus denying one of the most important that Ireland could be at rest until the Roman principles of the constitution, as asserted at catholic clergy had attained those objects of all times, even in the darkest ages. To yield their desires, unless all hopes of attaining to the claims of the petitioners, the house those objects were utterly extinguished, and must not only submit to abandon this im- the desire to attain had fallen with the hope portant principle, which their ancestors had by which it had been nourished. It was at all times zealously maintained, but must true that the Roman catholic clergy of Irealso consent to break the solemn compact so land could scarcely hope fully to attain those recently entered into by the independent le- objects, or, having done so, permanently to gislatures of Great Britain and Ireland; the retain their acquisition, whilst Ireland recompact by virtue of which their lordships mained united to Great Britain. Separation were enabled, in that house, to consider the from Great Britain must therefore be in petition before them; they must repeal the their view, at least as a probable event, so fifth article of the union of Great Britain and long as they should flatter themselves with Ireland, by which the protestant churches of the hope of accomplishing their wishes. If England and Ireland were united, and made the Roman catholic religion had remained for ever the established church of England the established religion of Ireland; or if it and Ireland; and by which the maintenance could be now made the established religion and preservation of that church, as the esta- of Ireland, consistently with a just observ blished church of England and Ireland was ance of the solemn pledge given by the com solemnly stipulated as a fundamental article pact of union; or consistently with an oba of the union itself. They must therefore servance of the faith so frequently, at vahazard the continuance of that union, by arious times, and in various ways, pledged to direct breach of what has been thus solemn the protestants of Ireland; or consistently ly declared a fundamental article of the com- with the principles on which the British conpact by which it was made. But they must stitution as it now stands, connected with the do more. The claim by the petition, and title of the family on the throne, can alone the arguments founded upon it, extended in be supported; perhaps (though this may principle, to the whole empire; and their well be doubted) Ireland as a Roman catholordships must also repeal that article of the hic country might remain united with Great treaty of union with Scotland by which a si- Britain. But it is too late to consider what milar provision was made for the mainte- might have been done under such circumnance and preservation of the presbyterian stances; it is too late to conjecture whether form of church government in Scotland. Ireland, as a country wholly Roman cathoEven if the petitioners had not so broadly lic, could probably remain united with the and openly stated their claims, it must be protestant government of Great Britain. By evident that their pretensions went to this solemn stipulation, which their lordships extent and it would be absurd to suppose could not be persuaded to violate, the pro that the Roman catholic clergy in Ireland, testant must ever be the established religion caiming to be the lawful successors of the of Ireland, whilst Ireland should remain à ancient clergy, and considering those now in part of the united empire: and the Roman possession as usurpers, would ever be con-catholic could by law become the established Lent with less than the possession of the religion, only by the most daring breach of powers and revenues which they thus claim- faith, and by a shameful abandonment of ed as their right, and the ejection of those the principles on which the British constituwhom they deemed to be usurpers of that tion stands. The Roman catholic can there right. To suppose otherwise were to sup-fore never be made the established religion pose that the nature of man is not what the experience of all ages has demonstrated it to be; and it was absurd to suppose that whilst the powers and revenues of the church were claimed by the Roman catholic clergy, those powers, and revenues were not objects of their desires; and that whilst those desires were nourished by hope, and the gratifica -tion of those desires was denied, they would never be content themselves, or ever cease to excite discontent in the minds of the

of Ireland by a law of the united empire, sanctioned by a prince of the family now on the throne. It can therefore only become the established religion of Ireland by a sepa ration of Ireland from Great Britain, and the extirpation or expulsion of the protestants of ireland. Considering, therefore, the claims of the petitioners as utterly inconsistent with the established laws and constitution of the empire, as requiring a complete change, or rather subversion of that constitution in a

served by the members of both churches in maintaining the articles in favour of each. But the terms of the treaty of union itself had provided amply against the danger thus suggested: for it must be recollected that for all offices in England, and consequently for all the most important offices of the state, the Scotch must qualify themselves accord

fore conform to the church established there, to obtain any considerable influence in the executive government of the country; and the extent and power of Scotland, and the number of its inhabitants, considered as a part of the whole empire, bore no comparison with the extent, the power, or the population of England, or with the extent, power, or population of Ireland, of which the influence must be strongly felt by the protestant government, if not only the par liament, but all officers of the state (the ac

fundamental part; convinced that between the two religions there could not, in the nature of things, exist equality; that one must have ascendency; and that the ascendency of the Roman catholic (an intolerant religion) must finally produce the destruction or expulsion of the protestants, and the separation of Ireland from Great Britain, unless that dreadful conclusion should be prevent-ing to the law of England, and must thereed by the strength of the protestants of Ireland, and the superior force of Great Britain, in the issue of a bloody and horrible civil war; he must deprecate the yielding any degree of attention to the proposition made to the house.The arguments in favour of that proposition attempted to be drawn from the establishment of the presbyterian religion in Scotland, by the stipulation for that purpose in the treaty of union with that country, and the comparison attempted to be made between the situation in England of the presbyterians of Scotland, and the si-cess to which was refused to the presbyte tuation in the united empire, and in Ireland particularly, of the Roman catholics of Ireland, if the objects of the petition were obtained, appeared to him utterly unfounded. The presbyterian church of Scotland was the established church of the country; it possessed all it could possess in Scotland; it had nothing to claim there; in England it had nothing to hope. By the treaty of union between England and Scotland, its possessing an establishment was solemnly stipulated for, and secured. It had nothing to fear but from a breach of that stipulation; and its best security for a performance of that stipulation was its forbearance to interfere with the establishment in England. It therefore remained in quiet obedience to the laws of the united kingdom, and in perfect har-cies of corporation, with all the forms and mony with the episcopal church established gradations of a distinct and firm governin England, with which it had no ground of ment; connected by no tie with the governcontest, and which a regard for its own pre- ment of the country, and utterly incapable servation taught it rather to protect and de- of being so connected; standing in open defend.-It was true, that in the heat of argu- fiance of the law; exercising an authority ment, during the agitation of the union with which the law expressly forbade, and repreScotland, apprehensions were suggested of senting those whom the law had placed in danger to the episcopal church of England possession of the powers, the dignities, and by the introduction of members of the pres- the emoluments of the national church, as byterian church of Scotland into the British usurpers of those powers, those dignities, parliament: and it was true that those ap- and those emoluments.-Noble lords affectprehensions had proved ill rounded. They ed to doubt the fact: he would venture to were ill-founded, because it must be mani- reassert it, and to appeal to the most revefestly the interest of the presbyterian church rend prelate on the bench above him (the of Scotland to attempt nothing which could primate of Ireland) to whom, amongst endanger the stipulation in favour of that themselves, and frequently elsewhere, the church, which must depend, whilst the Roman catholic clergy would give no other members of the episcopal church remain appellation than that of Dr. Stewart. They the majority, on the good farth to be oh-represented themselves as the only lawful

rians of Scotland at the time of the union with that country), should be thrown open to the Roman catholics of all parts of the empire.-That any thing like peace or harmony could subsist in Ireland between the Roman catholics and protestants of that country, if they were placed on an equal footing in political power, whilst the hierarchy of the Ro man catholic church there should remain as it stood, must be utterly hopeless. The Roman catholic clergy of Ireland he viewed in a light very distinct from the laity. The lat ter he considered as individuals, dissenting in religious faith from the established church; and, except as connected with their clergy, merely as individuals so dissenting. But the lergy were a great and compact body, a spe