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of the materials of manufacture; that excess is on the raw materials only, such as cotton yarn and cotton wool. With regard to the linen trade, the whole of the excess during the 3 quarters of the last year, compared with the 3 quarters of the preceding year, is 3 millions of yards; the principal part of this increase arises from the exports to the colonies in the West Indies. Here allow me to remark, that if in laying on taxes we do not hinder trade and manufactures, we do well; and if in taking off taxes we promote trade, we do better. Last year the export tax on the linen trade was taken off, and there was an excess of 3 millions of yards: so far with respect to trade. We stand not in the situation we did some years ago; we are not in a declining way, taken upon a comparison with former years. The balance of the imports over the exports for the last five years, amounts to 1,195,000l. a year, official value. Take the excess of last year, and it is only 655,000l. so that the excess of the import over the export trade is not one half of what it has been for the last five years. With respect to the debt of Ireland, let us see how it has increased. I shall not enter into the cause or the means of preventing so large an increase. We can least shew that we have stopped the progress of that increase. In Jan. 1804, the debt of Ireland was 53 millions. The year before it was only 43 millions, so that there was an increase that year of 10 millions. The increase now will not be half that amount; so that we may say we are in a better situation than we were at the close of the last year.--Having stated the situation of the trade and the debt of Ireland, I will proceed to lay before the committee the demands, and the Ways and Means for meeting them. The whole charge of the year 1805, for the debt of Ireland, including the sinking fund, is 2,611,6231. The proportion of 2-17ths of the sum raised by Ireland for the joint charge for the service of the year, is 5,403,1021. British, or 5,853,360l. Irish, making together the sum of 8,464,9831. which is the sum Ireland is to provide to pay the interest of her debt, and her quota of contribution. Certainly it is a very large sum, and one cannot apply one's attention too much to the means of lessening it. In order to meet this demand, I shall take the revenues of Ireland at 4 millions. I shall explain my reason for taking them at that sum presently. A loan has been settled for 2,500,000l. which is 2,708,3331. Irish. A further loan is inA further loan is intended of 1 million. There was a residue,

on the 5th Jan. of the loan of last year, to the amount of 7 38,7891. British, or 800,3541. Irish, which has not been transmitted to the Irish treasury, and I shall therefore bring it forward. This comes to 8,508,6871. to meet a charge of 8,464,9831. The next thing will be to raise the Ways and Means for the interest of 2,500,000l. English, and 1,000,000l. Irish.

On 23 millions, at 61. 17s. 7d. per cent. the
British Irish charge is 172,062 186,400
On 1,000,000l. suppose at
same rate,


Making in the whole a charge, including the sinking fund, of .255,255 I have stated that I take the revenues of Ireland at 4 millions. I shall now explain the reason why. They produced last year 2,800,000l. The principle I go on is to put the revenues at a full peace establishment, and to raise the additional war expences. I suppose that the revenues will produce 1,200,000l. more than last year. It is pleasant to know, that the taxes which the house thought proper to impose last year, with the exception of the taxes on excise, have operated, in the gross, perfectly to my satisfaction. The whole revenues of the country, for the two quarters ending Midsummer 1804, amount to 1,334,000l.; for the two quarters ending 5th Jan. 1805, 1,886,000l. The excess of the two quarters ending 5th January is 552,000l. more than the excess of the preceding quarters. Without going into minutia, I state the revenue to have gained by an acquisition of 552,000l. I know that the duties on the distilleries are not collected as they ought to be. I am well warranted in saving, that if a proper mode of collecting them had been resorted to, they would have amounted to considerably more than they have done. I am persuaded, that, with the addition of the duties on the distilleries, collected as they ought to be, the revenues of Ireland, in time of peace, will not produce less than 44 millions; stating the interest of the debt at 24 millions, there will be 2 millions over. Now 2 millions cannot be expended in a peace establishment, unless 15 millions are expended in England. In talking of the collection of the revenues, I believe many gentlemen who hear me can bear testimony, that there is not a city or county in Ireland where the duties on distilleries are perfectly collected; they are not collected in the counties of Galway, Tyrone, or the province of Connaught. As to the city of Dublin, I do not wish to de

tail what I know concerning the collection of the revenue in it; but I will say thus much, that there is scarcely a distiller in Dublin who has not openly and honestly avowed to me that he has defrauded the revenue. It is owing to the wretched system with regard to the lower officers of excise; their means are so small, and their habits of expence are so great, that without raising their salaries considerably, as the reward of diligence and merit, we shall never be able to prevent the distiller from acts of fraud and peculation. There are 17 or 18 distillers that not long ago, on being examined, refused to be examined on oath, and actually sent in a memorial, stating that it would be an act of perfidy in them to disclose facts that would be injurious to others, and that they could not, as honest men, make any discovery. This they fairly acknowledged to me, and I recollect, that in the books of one distiller in particular, there was a charge of 12001. paid to revenue officers. Without the utmost exertions of the commissioners of excise, and at the same time bettering the condition of the revenue officers, you can never make any alteration. I hope the period will not be long when you will ameli-riages which do not pay duty. They are orate the excise laws, and make them more used as substitutes for chaises. I mean fair and equitable with regard to those who Gigs. Gigs are untaxed. pay the duties. It is a fact, that the sub-a small duty upon them. commissioners of excise are themselves the seizing officers; therefore, until that is remedied, it is impossible that the excise trial can be palatable. The nearer we can get to the civil mode of trial in proceedings relative to revenue the better. It is particularly important that the collection of the excise duties should be under one board. I hope, on some future occasion, to the attention of the house to this subject. The object is to find the Ways and Means for this sum of 255,2251. a year. First, I shall propose a tax on several articles, which, though of importance, yet, with the exception of one, are trifling as objects on which taxation will be felt. It is scarce worth the committee is on Paper, Hats, and Aucwhile going through the whole detail. Itions. This I expect will produce 12,000l. propose to increase the duties on the impor-I propose to raise 20,000l. by a tax on the tation of timber, raisins, pepper, &c.- Post-office. An additional duty of 1d. a letThe hon. baronet (sir J. Newport) who re-ter. With regard to the post-office, I should presents the city of Waterford, seems mention, that it is in contemplation to recomalarmed at the idea of a tax on timber; but mend a measure for the prevention of the if he thinks that the revenue must necessa- frequent robberies of the mails, by sending rily be raised on something, there is no- them in coaches. The best mode of car thing on which a tax can fall so lightly as on rying this into effect will be to recommend foreign timber. It will certainly not affect to grand juries to direct the making proper the poorer classes. There is hardly a cabin roads through which the mail coaches are to of a poor man in Ireland that is made of travel, and with that view to take care that foreign timber. I do not know of any cabin surveyors are appointed to make the roads

I propose to put There is another species of carriages, called Jaunting Cars, or the Irish Vis-a-Vis. They form a great part of the luxury of those who have few other luxuries; the tax, therefore, I shall propose upon them will be very light: I shall propose 5s. a piece. The whole of these duties, I expect, will produce 10,0001. a year. With respect to the next tax I propose, I am afraid some gentlemen will be angry with me; I copy the example of England. It is well known that Bachelor's pay very little towards the revenue: I propose an addition of 15s. on every bachelor's male servant. This will produce about 40001. The next tax I have to submit to

that is not built of Irish timber. Perhaps in Waterford it may be otherwise, owing to its contiguity to the sea. The duties I propose are these: double the duties on all timber, except Deal, and half the duties on Deal. The reason why gentlemen should not be alarmed at this duty is, that it will not amount to a quarter of what is received in G. Britain. These duties altogether I estimate at 36,000l. The three or four next taxes will not fall on the poor. One is a tax on Horses: not on agricultural Horses, but riding Horses, and Horses that draw carriages. The duty I propose will be much smaller than what is paid in England. It will be 3s. for a single horse. The next is tax on Dogs. It will be of consequence to the poor people of Ireland, that instead of maintaining 5 or 6 dogs, only 1 should be allowed. The Horses I estimate at 400,000l. and Dogs at 80001. The next tax I propose is on Curricles. Why should not curricles pay the same as four-wheeled carriages, as they answer the same purpose? I propose that a curricle with 2 wheels shall be considered the same as a carriage with 4 wheels. There are another kind of car


Mr. James Fitzgerald rose, and regretted that the public accounts for Ireland, which had been moved for, were not laid before the house on an earlier day than the 5th inst.; if they had, gentlemen would be much better able to go into the present most

as complete as possible, and present those | Passengers, which would produce about who neglect their duty. By this mode we 30061. a year; and upon that a sufficient shall take no money out of the public trea-sum might be borrowed to make the neces sury, and no more than is absolutely necessary alterations in the harbour. This, howsary from individuals. There is another tax ever, will be a subject for future considewhich I do not wish to resort to directly,ration. The produce of the taxes which I but it is necessary I should mention it. I have enumerated I estimate at 262,250l. and need not remind gentlemen, that in the year the sum wanted for the interest of the Loan 1791 the hearth money duties were taken and Sinking Fund was 255,000l. which off the lower orders, and raised on the leaves a surplus of about 70001. I will not higher. Houses that had one hearth a-occupy more of the time. of the committee mounted to nearly 500,000. There was com- at present, but shall be happy to give any paratively very few houses that had two explanation which gentlemen may require. hearths. The whole loss to the public, by The right hon. gent. then moved his first taking off the tax, was 28,000l. What I resolution. wish to do is not to revive the tax, but to lay a tax on houses under Seven Windows. Where the persons inhabiting them pay 50s. a year, the tax I propose is 3s. But to guard the poor man from being called on, he must swear he is not worth 101. or does not rent land to the amount of 51. a year.-important, and at the same time intricate In order to be liable to the tax, he must pay subject. Before he should call the atten50s. a year for his house, or be worth 101.tion of the house to the particulars of the or rent 51. a year in land. I cannot think statement made by his right hon. friend, he this will distress any one. Gentlemen will must protest against, and even censure the see that we are assimilating ourselves to habit of anticipating the revenue in Ireland, England. Instead of taxing houses, ac-long before it was received in the treasury, cording to the hearths, we exempt them Much inconvenience arose from this prac till they are rated as seven Windows. This tice, and he believed a great deal of injury tax will bring back 21,000l. a year; but then likewise resulted from it to the country.we must deduct 60001. for houses of five and He could not refrain from lamenting that six windows, to be exempted as in Britain; balances to an enormous amount should be so that the sum I take credit for is 15,000l. constantly left in the hands of the collectors. These are, I think, the whole I have to pro- It was in vain, therefore, that we looked pose, except one, which can only fall on for a productive revenue, whilst this antici those who are able to bear taxes. It is a tax pation and its consequent evils afflicted the of 251. per cent. on all windows above country, and interfered with the application seven. This I estimate at 31,000l. There of the taxes in the most suitable ways. He is one more tax which I estimate at 17,000l. ¡ did not think that it was necessary to raise It is by an increase on Stamps and Licences. any new taxes under the present circumWith regard to the Stamps, I mean to pro- stances of Ireland, or that any ground of pose the rates of duties another day. The necessity had been made out for them.Licences will be those granted to Auctioneers, From the review he had taken of the finanBrewers, and others. The tax will be not cial state of that country, however unfaat all injurious to trade. One article only vourable it appeared, he thought he could remains, and that is the Treasury Bills, satisfy the house that his proposition was which I make no provision for at present; well founded. His right hon. friend calcubut I shall reserve for a future day, when I lated the Revenue at 4,000,000l. the Loan think it necessary to trouble the committee. at 3,500,000l. and gave credit for 800,3541, There is one other subject which I wish to Now the whole of the sum to be raised a mention, though I do not mean to propose mounting to no more than 8,464,9831. it it as a tax at present. It certainly must be struck him that any additional taxes were a desirable object to both countries to faci- quite unnecessary; and he put it to the Jitate the intercourse between them. If the candour of the house whether they should packets between Dublin and Holyhead could be imposed. He said that the proposed be so arranged that they could sail at low taxes were unnecessary, because there rewater, it would be a great advantage. Imained due to the treasury of Ireland a great think a small duty might be laid upon Cabin deal more than was sufficient for covering the

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deficiency, and the sums to which he alluded | literally a bankrupt at the time of the Union, were the balances in the hands of the col- and had been getting worse ever since; it lectors, the revenues still due, and the ar- was obvious, therefore, that Ireland could rears of the quit-rents, which amounted to not discharge her share of the unequal con1,129,000l. The house would be astonished tract entered into for her, and of course that to hear, that the balances which remained England should ultimately pay all. He conlast year in the hands of the collectors were tended, that by borrowing so much money no less than 500,000l. He did not reckon this year, Ireland increased the proportion much, however, on the greater part of this, of its debt compared with that of England, as he supposed a great deal of it could never and of course must extend the time for equalbe recovered, and the rest at a considerable ising the burthens, which was proposed by expence. The next source which he should the Act of Union.. He again insisted that propose for the supply would be, the sur-there would be no occasion for new taxes in plus of the consolidated fund taken at that country, if the government should call 264,6191. and the profit of the Irish Lottery in the arrears now in the hands of the colrated at 100,000l. The postage of letters lectors of the revenue, and said he was dehe should also reckon at 44,000l. The ex-termined to give his negative to the resotraordinaries, or the expences thus termed, if well regulated, would, he was convinced, add considerably to the means of the country; he meant, by not being at all times a considerable and weighty drawback on its resources. There was one branch under the head of extraordinaries, which, he trusted, would be restricted: he meant the gain to this country, and the consequent loss to Ireland, on transmitting money to the Irish Treasury. Here the hon. gent. noticed the nature of the late loan, and the disproporfioned exchange at which it was sent to Ireland. The hon. gent. also took a close view of the relative situation of both countries, and the balance of their respective debts, with a contrast of what should be the proportion of each, according to the Articles of the Union: 30,000,000 due by Ireland on the 1st of March, 1802, were in proportion to 469,800,000. due by England, as one toner; but did he not know that the whole of 15. When the debt of England was that surplus was to be appropriated by Par469,800,000l. the debt of Ireland should be liament to the paying off certain arrears, for 62,640,000l. in order to make it equal to it which it was intended? If it were taken in the proportion of 7 to one.-58,925,3561. away, there would be no fund then for this debt of Ireland were in proportion to purpose. His hon. friend likewise took 484,962,6321. debt due by England, nearly credit for 2 millions, as if the money had as 1 to 8, and some fractions. To make been in the treasury. This was certainly as the debt of Ireland equal to that of England, great an anticipation of the revenue as any in the proportion of 7 to 1, it should be which his hon. friend had charged to the go64,555,1721. The hon. gent. proceeded at vernment of Ireland. He hoped he would great length, and concluded with expressing excuse him for saying, that the Public Aca most ardent wish that the affairs of Ireland counts of Ireland were laid this year before were before the house. The real condition Parliament much earlier than they had been of that country would convince gentlemen ever laid before the Parliament of Ireland, that its ability to pay its proportion of the on which account he should return his joint expences of the empire had been to- thanks to the officers, for having made up tally over-rated. What the motive for this their accounts with such accuracy and could have been he knew not, unless it pro- promptitude. He paid the greatest attenceeded from vanity, or interested motives tion to the observations of the hon. gent. in those who were concerned in the arrange-but he did not hear any ground advanced ment which brought it about. Ireland was which could induce him to withdraw or alter

Mr. Foster replied, that he had no objection to apply the balances in the collectors' hands to the purpose mentioned by his right hon. friend who had just sat down, but the difficulty was to get it paid. Situated as both countries were at this moment, would it be wise or politic to leave the supplies, or any part of them, dependent on mere contingencies? It was impossible to make up the accounts so precisely as not to leave some of the money in the commissioners' hands. It was the practice from time immemorial to do so; and he was convinced from his own experience, that the object of his hon. friend was unattainable, and this could not therefore be taken into serious consideration as a certain fund for the exigency of the moment. His hon. friend would also apply the surplus of the Consolidated Fund in the same man

linen exported; he could therefore by no
means conceive that the taking off the
duty was the cause of the increase which
the right hon. gent. had mentioned. With
respect to the great increase of the debt of
Ireland last year, he begged to observe, that
out of the loan of last year he had paid off
1,700,000l. of 'exchequer bills, of which
700,000l. were outstanding when he came
into office. This sum, when added to the
balance remaining in the exchequer, made
a sum of 2 millions, over and above the ex-
penditure of the year. He said he by no
means wished to make any observation that
could be considered as inimical to the right
hon. gent.; but he thought it right to say
thus much, in order to set himself right
with the house, and to justify the statement
he had formerly made.

Mr. Foster observed, that as to any po-
litical differences that existed between him
and the right hon. gent. they had never
weighed in his mind, and he hoped they
did not in that of the right hon. gent. As
to the linen, the papers when produced
would speak for themselves. The balances,
in fact, that remained due to the treasury
was last year 500,000l. as he had stated it.

Mr. Corry said, that the right hon. gent. had then stated that 550,000l. in cash re

Mr. Corry said that he was happy to find, from what had fallen from the right hon.mained in the hands of the collectors. He gent. (Mr. Foster), that he had altered his opi- admitted that some such sum was due to the nion upon a point on which they had dif- treasury; but asserted that it had not been fered last year, viz. the amount of the ba-collected, and the balance of cash was only lances in the hands of the collectors. The 130,0001. right hon. gent. had stated that the cash balances in the hands of the collectors was no less than 550,000l.; and to shew that he distinctly meant cash balances, he compared Lord A. Hamilton contended, that in them with the amount of the balance in the law, the debt of Ireland was now become hands of the collectors in England, which an English debt; that the state of its exports was only 37,000l. Whereas, if he had and imports could give us no sanguine hopes meant the balance in charge against the Irish of the increase of its resources, and that if collectors, he would have compared it with taxes were thus multiplied, there could be the arrears of duties in England, which no ground for entertaining any sanguine amounts to between 5 and 6 millions. The hopes that Ireland, even in time of peace, right hon. gent. now admitted that the cash would be able to satisfy all the claims upon balance in the hands of the collectors, in- its regular revenue. stead of 550,000l. was only 130,000l. With The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave noregard to the increase of the export of tice, that in order to satisfy the House and linen, it was a circumstance that gave him the public upon the subject, he should togreat satisfaction; but he could not attri-morrow move for a committee to inquire inbute that increase to the taking off the duty, to the state of the accounts between G. Bribecause of 37 millions of yards exported tain and Ireland.-The first resolution was from Ireland, 35 millions was imported into then put and agreed to. England, which did not pay the duty; and Mr. Foster, observing several members the quantity of Irish linen exported to fo- about to retire, said, he hoped the gentlereign countries from Gr. Britain was not men interested in the Irish 6 per cent, du above one-fourth of the quantity of British ties upon the imports of the retail traders,

the taxes which he had the honour of proposing.

Sir John Newport said he could not conceive why no account had been given of the 2 millions due from G. Britain to Ireland, ever since the passing of the Act of Union. Had that resource been stated, and resorted to previously to the budget, it must surely have superseded the necessity of resorting to new taxes, to the amount of 255,000l. It was surely full time that these accounts should be settled, as the committee formerly appointed had only met two or three times, and came to no determination. He expressed very strong objections to the proposed tax upon the importation of timber, as, whatever may be the case in the county of Louth, or those parts of Ireland with which the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) was best acquainted, it would operate very injuriously to the comforts of all the cottagers in those parts of Ireland with which he was particularly connected, where native timber was so scarce that they were obliged to have recourse entirely to such as was imported. Notwithstanding this necessity, he was sorry to observe that the tax upon timber was regularly augmented every year since the Union.

Mr. Foster replied, that he had never meant to say that the cash actually in their hands was 500,0001.

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