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Earl Darnley thought it would save their lordships much trouble, if he should proceed to read them, instead of having the question put upon every one of them, which he should find himself under the necessity of doing, if he were prevented from following that course which he had adopted, as likely to least delay their lordships.

ships in commission, which were built in Lord Walsingham rose to order, and the king's yards, specifying the time when suggested whether it would not be proper they were launched, their cost, and the for the noble lord to have the sense of the sums which have been since expended on house taken on his first proposition, before them, and at what periods." The reason he should proceed to read and comment for which he would move for this account, upon the long series of motions which he was to shew how few ships there were ac-intended submitting to their lordships. tually in commission which had been built in the king's yards, and their durability compared with the ships built in the private yards. His next would be for "An account of the principal articles of naval stores in the king's yards, on the 18th Feb. 1801, 15th of May 1804, and at this time, or as near to the said periods as can be collected from the returns. The quantities of rough and sided timber to be separately Lord Melville thought it would be best stated, and the foreign timber distinguish-to let his lordship proceed, and explain ed from the English." This was also one at once the purport of all his motions, of the noble lord's motions, with a trifling as he hoped to be able to satisfy the house, addition. He was anxious that the quan- that there was no real necessity for accedtity of timber should be distinctly stated, ing to any of them. because there is a great fallacy in the ac- Earl Darnley, then moved for " A copy count when the sided timber is returned of that part of the report made by the with the rough, amounting, as he under-commissioners of the navy who inspected stood, to nearly one third.-His next Chatham dock-yard in 1785, which has would be for "An account of the prin- reference to the supplies of timber sent cipal articles of naval stores due on con-into that yard, and into the yards of Depttract, according to the latest returns from ford and Woolwich." In that report it the several yards; and also on the 18th would, he believed, appear, that the buildFeb. 1801, and the 15th of May 1804; ing of ships of war by contract, impeded the foreign timber to be separately stated considerably the service of the king's yards, from the English, and the rough timber as it prevented supplies of timber from from the sided." The substance of this being offered to them.-His next motion motion was included in one made by the would be for “ Copies of the reports made noble lord, but he thought it necessary to by the purveyors of Sherwood Forest, be rather more specific in the account he dated 18th Nov. 1797, and 4th Dec. 1802; should call for, because he was anxious also an account, shewing the number of that the English timber should be distin-trees which have been felled in that foguished from that which was to proceed from any contracts that had been inade, to import from Holstein, or elsewhere. His next motion would be for "An account shewing the number of months which the hemp, and spars for masts and topnrasts, in store in the 15th of May 1804, would last, according to the average consumption, during the late war; and also how many months that which is due on the contracts would last." It would appear from this account, he could assert, from the best authority, that there was nearly 18 months consumption in store, and that a quantity equal to the consumption of 12 months had been contracted for.-He would next move for "A copy of the order from the admiralty to the navy board, dated in January 1776, for keeping a three year's stock of timber in the dock-yards.”

rest, for the use of the navy, since the pe riod first mentioned; specifying when the navy board made application to the treasury for the fall of the said trees." This would establish the fact, that the whole forest had been suffered to rot, notwithstanding the report of the purveyors, till the year 1803, when a fall of 8000 trees was made; and during that time the very ships building in the king's yards were rotting for want of timber to complete them.-He would next move for " A copy of the letter from the navy board to their purveyor of Sherwood Forest dated 20th Nov. 1797, declining the offer of timber made by Mr. Shaw, of Trowel." In this letter he understood they declared they would be in no want of timber for the following year. His next motion was

For an account shewing the lowest

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meetings, and size of oak timber, allowed would next move for "A copy of the reto be received into his majesty's dock-port made by the purveyors of the navy, yards, on the established contracts since to the admiralty, on the 2d of Aug. 1802, 1776, and the lowest meetings, and size respecting the foreign timber which had of timber which is applicable to the building been served into Deptford yard, by Mr. of frigates and sloops of war." This would John Larking." It was stated in the reshew the shameful prodigality which had port, that it was very inferior to English taken place in the employment of timber timber, some of the best of it approaching in the king's yards, where none was re-nearly in quality to the worst English oak, ceived but such as was applicable to the and that it could bear no competition construction of ships of the line, or 50-gun with it in point of durability. His next ships. The consequence of this practice motion would be for a Copy of the conis, that frigates and sloops are built and re.tract or agreement which has been made paired with it at a most exorbitant expence, since 15th May 1804, by the navy board, there being none received of the sizes adapt- with Mr. John Larking, for the importaed for the smaller classes of ships. His tion of foreign oak timber; also an ac next would be for "An account shewing the count shewing any other allowance which quantity of sided timber converted in Dept-is to be made to him, on the said timber, ford-yard, in Oct. Nov, and Dec. 1804; than is therein expressed, and the sums of and in Oct. Nov. and Dec.1803, specifying money which have been advanced to him the number of trees which were found to be on account thereof."-His next for "An sound, and the number which were found account shewing the number of shipwrights, to be defective in each month." One and also of apprentices, employed in the half of the trees in that yard, in 1801, were merchants' yards in G.Britain, according to rotten and defective. The salutary regu-the returns made to the admiralty in April lation of a timber-master took place about 1804." This would shew the number of shipthat period, and the consequence has been, wrights to be about 5000, and the number of that the timber which has been received apprentices of all descriptions, to be about since that period has been good and ser- 3700.-Next, for "An account shewing viceable. He would next move for "An the amount of the tonnage of the merchant account shewing the sums of money which shipping of G. Britain, on the 1st Jan.1804, have been advanced as loans by the navy distinguishing the foreign from the Britishboard to Mr. John Larking, Mr. John built." The tonnage, he understood to Bowsher, or any other timber merchants, be nearly two millions of tons.-Next for specifying the time when such loans were "An account shewing the numbers and made, and the conditions thereof." In tonnage of shipping which have been built consequence of those loans, those two in the merchants' yards of G. Britain, contractors had been enabled to drive all between the 1st Jan. 1793, and the 31st competitors out of the market. His next Dec. 1804, or as late as the same can motion would be for "An account shew-be made out, by the returns at the customing the price of timber in the king's yards, house." From this it would appear, that on the 18th of Feb. 1801, and the ad-in the merchant yards nearly 100,000 tons vances which have been since made there- per year, exclusive of the ships of war on on; the advantages given by the alteration contract, have been built.-Next for in the mode of measurement, and qualifi-" An account, shewing the number of cations to be shewn in money." From ships and vessels of each class in the this it would appear that timber was ad- royal navy, and their tonnage; the foreignvanced 15 per cent. in 1802! and that a built ships to be distinctly stated, and further advance of nearly 40 per cent. took those which have been built in the merplace in June 1804. His next was for chant-yards from those which have been "Copies of the reports which have been built in the king's yards." From this acmade to the navy board by the officers of count it would appear, that the whole the dock yards, on examining the Stetin navy amounts to about 530,000 tons; of timber which was used in his majesty's which about 114,000 tons have been taken ships some years since, by way of experi- from the enemy, and about 260,000 tons ment, to ascertain its durability." These built by contract; only 156,000 tons have reports would shew that the timber is of been built in the king's yards, although such very inferior quality, that it is not they contain 3000 shipwrights, besides worth the expence of workmanship. He apprentices. He would next move for

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"Copies of all letters and representations the time to be stated when other grounds which have passed between the admiralty were made; also, whether the grounds and the navy boards, and between these were stated verbally or in writing, and by boards, and the master shipwrights of his whom, if in writing. Copies thereof to majesty's dock-yards, or any other person be laid before the house." He understood since the 27th Oct. 1803, on the subject that the merchant-builders complained of shoaling the shipwrights." Repeated re-that they sustained considerable loss from presentations had been made on the in-the ships which they built in 1800: for 211 propriety of the system pursued in working per ton, and that they were now held the shipwrights in the king's yards, which strictly to the terms of their contract, and the late admiralty had endeavoured to made responsible for any bad workmanship correct. He would also move for " Copies that may be discovered at a future period.~ of all letters which have passed between Next for the "Copy of a letter front the the navy board and the master shipwrights Navy Board to the Admiralty, dated the of the several dock-yards, since the 1st 24th Nov. 1802, inclosing the offer made of June 1804, respecting the time when by Mr. Brindley to build a 74-gun ship the ships ordered to be built in his majesty's and a frigate." This gentleman, he traş yards can be completed." This would shew, informed, offered to build a 74 at 211. that if the men were properly shoaled, and per ton, two years after the time the other not detained by the want of materials, builders say they suffered such loss.-His there would be no occasion to employ the two next motions would be "For a schemerchant builders. His next motion dule of the prices for workmanship and would be for " A statement shewing the materials, which the Navy Board has number of shipwrights that should build a agreed to pay the merchant-builders for 74-gun ship of 1730 tons in one year, to ships ordered to be repaired by them since be entitled, according to the prices for the 1st of June 1804, and against each workmanship allowed by the present scheme article to be stated the sum which it costs of task, to three days pay for one, or 6s. 3d. the public in Deptford-yard;" also, "A per dien." At the rate of 6s. 3d. per day, statement to be made by the officers of the present wages, 48 shipwrights should Deptford-yard, shewing for what price per build a 74-gun ship, of 1730 tons, in one ton a ship of 74 guns and 1730 tous, could year, or 312 days; and the whole sume for be built in that yard, in Jan. 1800 and workmanship would amount to 46711 1805; according to the scheme of task for His two next would be for " A list of workmanship, and the prices paid in that ships which have been launched from his yard for rough oak timber, and the other majesty's dock-yards, between the 1st of necessary materials at the above-mentionJan, 1793, and 31st of Dec. 1804." ed periods." The merchant-builders had Also," An account shewing the number of demanded, and are to be paid about 71: shipwrights borne in all the yards, on the per cent, more than the prices in Deptford 31st of Dec. of each year, from 1793 to yard, where a 74 could be built for about 1801 inclusive; the sums paid to them for 181. per ton in 1800, and about 241. per wages in each year, and the number of ton at the present moment. The two ships of 74 guns, and 1730 tons, which the next were for "A statement, shewing the sums so paid in each year would pay for defective or improper workmanship and the workmanship in building, according materials, which have appeared in his to the prices allowed by the present scheme majesty's ships Ajax and Achilles. Also of task." In the 9 years prior to 1802, only the amount of the several repairs which 11 ships of the line, 2 fifties, 14 frigates, have been done to them, or of the estiand 4 sloops had been launched in mate for repairing the latter; the time the king's yards, and money has been when they were launched, commissioned, actually paid equal to the building of and paid off, prior to Aug. 1802, to be 523 sail of the line.His next would be stated." Also" A copy of the letter sent For a statement of the grounds upon to the admiralty, by the captain of his which the merchant ship-builders declined majesty's ship Ardent, dated 28th March to contract with the Navy Board for the 1804, on the subject of the iron bolts building of ships of 74 guns, at a lower which had worked out of that ship." The price than $61. per ton, such, parts there- Ajax and Achilles were only years in of to be distinctly stated as were adduced commission, and, they have each since at the time they made their first offer, and cost from 12 to 20,0001. in repairs.—lle

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should next move for " An account of the should be referred to a committee of their Additional Naval Force ordered to be lordships. Whatever the decision of the provided between the 15th and 30th of house should be, respecting the motions May 1804; together with an estimate of which he had read, he should not regret the expence thereof; the number of that he had brought the subject under guns and men each ship was to carry, to discussion. If he were wrong in the asbe distinctly stated." Also, "Copies of sertions he had made, the noble lord to all letters or representations which have whom they applied would have an oppor been made by admiral lord Keith, or the tunity of refuting them, and their lordships transport board, to the admiralty, respect- would be able to determine the points at ing the inefficiency of the Additional Naval issue between them. Although he thought Force, called defence ships, and armed the papers he should move for, necessary transports, and a statement shewing how for the full understanding of the question, they have since been disposed of." Also, if they should be refused, he would still "A statement of the force, under the persevere in his original intention, and command of admiral lord Keith, on the bring the whole of the subject, at a conveni15th of May 1804, and the 20th of March ent opportunity, under discussion. He would 1805." The defence ships had been re- not trouble their lordships with any farther presented as being of no use, but rather observations, but make the first motion. au incumbrance, and they had all been The motion having been read from the ordered to be employed as transports. Lord woolsack, Keith's force had been reduced uine sail Lord Melville rose, and assured the of the line and several frigates, and 9 noble lord, that nothing could be more sloops and 21 gun-brigs had been added. adverse to his wishes, than to oppose the He would move for "A list of the gun-production of any papers, which could brigs which were ordered to be fitted as possibly tend to impede the discussion of fire vessels, in June, July, and Aug. the important subject, which it was the 1804, specifying their force, and when professed object of all his motions to bring they were launched, when they were or before their lordships. If the noble lord dered to be fitted as fire vessels, and when could prove his proposition, it would af they were returned to the service of gun-ford him, and the whole kingdom, he was brigs." Notwithstanding the clamours that persuaded, greater satisfaction than any had been raised against the late admiralty event which had ever occurred in the his for not having provided a sufficient num-tory of the naval administration of this ber of gun-brigs, immediately after the country. If he could prove that the king's present board came into office, nine of the yards, in times of difficulty, were equal to best were ordered to be fitted as fire-ships the keeping in repair of the great naval for some expedition which was not carried establishment of this country, and to add into effect. His last two motions would ten sail of the line to it annually, he who be for "A list of ships and vessels ordered made the discovery would deserve to be to be built in the king's yards, and con- considered as the greatest benefactor to tracted for in the merchant's yards, from the country that has ever existed. He Jau, 1771, to the present time; the price would be among the foremost to express per ton, after all abatements have been his gratitude to such a man. He thought made, to be stated against each ship built it necessary to remind the house that the by contract." Also " Copies of the repre- motion respecting the late and present sentations made to the navy board by the naval administration, was not of his seeking, officers of Woolwich yard, after having He acted upon the defensive, and the dif surveyed the Hope merchant ship, now ferent papers which he had moved for, called the Hyæna; also a copy of the order were intended to be employed rather in to the officers of the yard to value her his own vindication,' than for the purpose previous to her being purchased." He of criminating others. With regard to would take up no more of their lordships time than to mention how he would propose to proceed, if the papers he moved for should be granted! It was his intention, at some future day, to move that all the information which had been laid on the table respecting that important subject,

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one of the principal charges against him, that of building in the merchant yards, hé would assert, that, from the foundation of the navy, to the present time, no board of admiralty ever existed in this country, with the exception of the last, which in times of difficulty bad not recourse to building in

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to move, could not be produced, without a ruinous interruption of the business of the office, in less than 3 months. Under these circumstances, he trusted the noble lord would not persevere in pressing his motion. It may be said, why not employ

the private yards. Was it for him, with withstanding he had repeatedly pressed the short experience he had, to deviate the navy board to expedition, it was only. from a practice which had been invariably within one hour after he had entered that followed in the proudest period of our naval house, that he received the papers which he annals? The papers which he had laid on moved for some days ago, and which he had the table in his own defence, would decid- the honour of presenting to their lordships. edly establish that practice which the noble There was one of the motions which it lord had condemned. One of the re- would be impossible to comply with, within forms which had been suggested, re-any reasonable time, that for the producspected the shoaling or classing of the tion of copies of certain letters, of which workmen, and great advantagess were as- there were at least 300. He did not assert cribed to this new discovery. Possibly it this from his own authority, he had ap might be attended with all those benefits; plied to the proper officer, and be had that but he could not coincide in the inferences morning received a letter from the secrewhich had been drawn from it, to the dis-tary of the navy board, stating, that the repute of the contrary practice. Parts of papers for which the noble lord intended the works of a ship requiring different degrees of strength, the strong man was not retarded in his operations by the weaker unan, who was working, perhaps, on a different part of the ship. This new invention was not practised at the best periods of our navy; it was a discovery supernumerary clerks? He would tell not more than 15 months old, suggested the noble lord, supernumerary clerks would by the master builder at Plymouth, and not do. To prepare papers of such imporrespecting which a difference of opinion tance, with all the accuracy that was ne obtained among the master builders in the cessary for the two branches of the legis other yards. Whether it could be adopted lature, the ablest and most efficient men with advantage, would soon be decided must always be employed, and those could the subject was at present under considera- not be diverted from their usual line of emtion, and would most probably be deter-ployment, without materially impeding mined before the papers moved for by the the progress of the public service. He noble lord could even, with the greatest would repeat, that he was as anxious as expedition, be laid upon the table. The the noble lord, for the full discussion of question would be practically considered, the question; and he would therefore enand would be, within a short time, either tertain the hope, that he would postpone adopted or rejected; or as truth was said a motion which could only tend to retard to lay in the middle, perhaps some mode it, might be struck out between the ancient practice and the new discovery. He could assure the house that the subject was under deep consideration, and he intreated their lordships not to interrupt him while he was endeavouring to probe it to the bottom. He could perceive the drift of the noble lord's motions; they all tended to prove, that building in the merchants' yards was at all times more expensive than in the King's yards; and that with proper arrangement in the latter, ships may be built at a less comparative expence than they actually are. To decide those two important points, much of the information which the noble lord required, would be found in the papers before the house. As to those which the noble lord moved for, he was persuaded they could poti be produced in sufficient time for the proposed discussion of the question. Note

The Duke of Clarence would not long trespass on the house, but he thought it incumbent on him to say a few words in support of a motion of which he was proud to be the father. He was surprised that the secretary of the navy board should write the letter which the noble lord stated to have received, or that 3 months should be required for the production of papers, which were necessary for the discussion of one of the most important questions that was ever submitted to that house. He could not refrain, however, even in that stage of the business, from declaring, that if any deviation should take place from the system laid down by lord St. Vincent, it was both fallacious and erroneous. the merchant yards, the practice had long prevailed of shoaling the shipwrights, and it was the wish of that great character, that the practice, which had been found

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