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so advantageous, should be introduced | wen" inquired why, in the report of the and established in the king's yards. ・ ・ ・ privy council relative to the Isle of Man, that had been this evening laid on the table, the names of the subscribers had been omitted? Mr. Rose promised to make an enquiry on the subject. Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the custom duty bill, which was agreed to.



Earl Darnley congratulated their lord ships and the country, that the system introduced by the late board of admiralty was under consideration, for its merits were such, that he entertained a confident hope that it would be adopted. He was happy to bear such a declaration fall from the noble lord at the head of the naval department, for it was generally understood that Chancellor of the Exchequer rose, in pur he, and those united with him in admini-suance of the notice given by him yesterstration, came in with the determination day, to move for leave to bring in a bill to resist all the salutary regulations of the for reducing the militia of Ireland, and late board of Admiralty.-The first motion enabling them to enlist into the regiments was then put and negatived. It was moved, of the line, artillery and royal marines, that the rest of the series should be read The general arguments in favour of this short, which being done accordingly, they measure had been so fully discussed upon were all rejected.-Adjourned. a similar question, with regard to the English and Scotch militia, that it was not necessary now to dwell upon them. The arguments, as far as they related to general policy, applied with greater force to the militia of Ireland. The militia of Ireland stood on a different ground from that of England. The plan for lowering it did not bear a greater proportion than it ought; but it was also to be considered, that in Ireland there was a greater facility in gaining an acquisition to such a de scription of force as the militia, than there was in this country. His plan was not to take from the militia more than two-fifths The zeal and ability of the commanders would, he was persuaded, soon place the militia regiments on the same footing they now stood. It was not necessary to trouble, the house with any of the details at present. He concluded by moving "for leave to bring in a bill for allowing a certain proportion of the militia in Ireland voluntarily to en list into his majesty's forces of the line, ar tillery, and marines.", he of joi

Friday, March 29. [MINUTES.] Mr. Abercrombie brought in a bill for enlarging the powers of the corporation of excise in Scotland, and a bill for raising a further sum of money for improving the harbour of Leith, which were read a first time. The Edinburgh police bill was read a third time and passed. Mr.Curwen moved, that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, requesting that he would be graciously pleased to cause to be laid before the house a copy of the proceedings of the privy council in 1765, on the petition of the duke of Athol, for a further compensation for the sale of his feudal rights. Ordered. -Mr. Rose presented the report of the privy council, dated 21st July 1804, on the petition of the duke of Athol, which was ordered to be printed.-The American treaty bill, and the French and Spanish trade licence bill, went through committees, and the reports were received. Mr. S. Bourne brought up the reports of the committees on the foreign prize ships bill, and the neutral ships bill, which were agreed to. On the motion of Mr. Magens it was ordered, that there be laid before the house an account of all dollars issued by the bank of England to the latest period the most vulnerable part of the empire at which the same could be made out. and was it prudent, at present, to deprive -Mr. Alexander brought up the report it of a considerable portion of its disci of the committee on the Spanish wine plined force for the purpose of substituting duty, which was agreed to, and a bill a parcel of new recruits, whom it would ordered accordingly.-A message from the require two or three years properly to train? lords announced their lordships' assent to He was not a militia officer; he never had


Sir John Newport was of opinion, that the militia system, however advantageous it might be to England, was injurious to Ireland, and he could therefore wish to see it abolished in that country in toto. He nevertheless highly disapproved of the measure proposed by the right hon. gent. Ireland was, he believed, justly considered


the additional legacy duty bill.--Mr. Cur-been one; nor was it likely he ever should

be one; and therefore he might, without tionary power to allow which regiments he any suspicion of interested motives, ex- should think fit to volunteer for each ser press his sympathy with that respectable vice. body in the mortification they must feel in losing so many men, whom they had been at such pains to instruct, and in being degraded to the situation of recruiting officers for the regular army.

Colonel Calcraft thought this quite a distinct measure from that with respect to the English Militia; as, in point of fact, the Irish Militia bad nothing but the name of militia belonging to them. They were not raised by ballot, but by bounty; and

Lord De Blaquiere approved the bill. Many people thought, that the Irish mi-if the Irish gentlemen were willing to belitia would be better employed any where come recruiting officers for the army, he than in their own country. He did not saw no reason why the motion of the right like to hear the gentlemen of Ireland talked hon. gent. should be resisted by the house. of as crimps, and recruiting serjeants.

Sir John Newport rose to order. He had never made use of the word crimp; what

he said related to officers.

The Speaker informed the hon. baronet, that what he was now stating was in ex-kept the country safe, without any contriplanation, and not on a point of order.bution from those absentees whose lands He could not rise in explanation, until the they thus defended, was, in his judgment, noble lord concluded his speech. entitled to peculiar praise. Considering the conduct of the Irish militia who, to a man, volunteered last year to serve in any part of the united kingdom, and the pub lic-spirited feeling of their officers, he could not help saying that he was much astonished at the selfishness exhibited last year, as well as in the whole course of the debates of the present week, with respect to the English militia.-After a few words from Lord Temple, Mr. Alexander, and Mr. Calcraft, the motion was agreed to.The bill was afterwards brought in, read first, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday.

[ENGLISH MILITIA ENLISTING BILL.] The house having, in pursuance of the order of the day, taken into consideration the Report of the English Militia Enlisting bill, several amendments were made

Lord De Blaquiere, resuming, observed, that his hon. friend and himself would have many opportunities to talk over these things. The words of the hon. baronet, amounted, in their effect, to those he had used. He would be the last in the world to impute to any man sentiments that he did not entertain, or put in his mouth words that he had not uttered. He denied that the bill could have the effect to degrade the Irish gentlemen. He thought it a good, substantial measure.

Sir George Hill supported the motion, and panegyrised the character of the Irish Militia officers. Their conduct and that of the Irish gentlemen in general, who by their own subscriptions raised the militia and

General Tarleton, adverting to the opi-a nion of the hon. baronet, that it would require two or three years to train the recruits who should fill up the chasm that this bill would produce in the militia of Ireland, took occasion to remark, that the result of his own experience, and that of many other officers with whom he was ac-in the Committee. quainted was, that an Irishman was much The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed more easily disciplined than a native of any other part of the united kingdom, and therefore he was certain that a much less time would be found necessary to bring these recruits to the same state as that in which the old militia stood, than was supposed by the hon. baronet.

Mr. Bastard was apprehensive that as the marine service was considered preferable to that of the line, most of the men volunteering, would wish to enlist in the marines, an event which would defeat the grand purpose of the measure.

two new clauses, one for adjusting the mode of ballots, in those counties in which the greatest and least number of men should enlist; and another to prevent serjeants and corporals of the Militia from volunteering as serjeants and corporals of Artillery; both of which were agreed to.

Mr. Bankes said, that though it was thought proper to put the ballot out of sight in the present bill, yet it was not the less in existence, and that for the sake of uniformity in the recruiting, both for the Regulars and the Militia, it was necessary, in his opinion, that a clause should be inserted, enacting that when vacancies oc

men. The act gave his majesty a discre-curred, instead of obliging a person to find

The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that this would not be at the option of the

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a substitute, the men should be raised, by submitted to their lordships this day se'n a small bounty paid by the parish. Hay-night, the substance of which was, to add ing moved a clause to this effect, to some of them, the words punishable by the ordinary course of law." Ilere a very long conversation ensued on a point of order; whether the motions should be put collectively or separately, in which conversation the following noble lords took a part, For discussing them collectively, were lords Grenville, Spencer, Carlisle, Darnley, Auckland, &c.; for a separate

The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that he agreed with the hon. gent. as well as the hon. bart, as to the unavoidable ne- discussion, were the Lord Chancellor, cessity of recurring to the ballot, but, in lords Ellenborough, Hawkesbury, Sid doing so, he acted in strict conformity to mouth, Mulgrave, Buckinghamshire, and the opinion of the house, which was, that Redesdale. The conversation, which lastwhen the militia should be reduced to its ed a considerable time, at length ended in quota, the custom of balloting ought not lord Auckland withdrawing his motion. to be given up. He could not accede, STANDING ORDER.] Lord Grenville, therefore, to the motion of the hon. gent. after shortly alluding to his having been -After a few words between Mr. Wil-interrupted on a former night on this sub berforce, in support of the clause, and ject, moved that the Standing Order, No. Mr. Canning and sir James Pulteney 30, purporting, that if any peer should, against it, the question was put from the require the house to go into a committee, chair, that the clause be brought up, which for the purpose of delivering his opinion was negatived without a division.-Ad- with greater freedom, by having liberty to journed. speak more than once, it ought not to be refused, he read. His reason, he stated, was to give a fair opportunity to noble. lords to discuss this important point with freedom, by speaking as often as they were, inclined. A conversation of considerable. length ensued on the interpretation of the standing order, the lord Chancellor, lords Hawkesbury, Redesdale, Morton, &c. con tending that it was not imperative; and lords Grenville, Spencer, Ellenborough, &c. maintaining that so long as it stood on the books of the house as one of their orders, it was entitled to its full weight and effect.

The Lord Chancellor having, in the course of the discussion, referred to some expres.. sions of his R. H. the Duke of Clarence on a former night, charging him with having violated the orders of the house, in him self addressing their lordships more than once;

Sir Robert Buxton seconded the motion. The parish, he said, was already obliged to pay half the bounty given by an individual for a substitute, and a small addition, he thought, might be sufficient to release the individual altogether.


Monday, April 1.

[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.] The Bishop of Durham rose to express a wish that the noble baron who had presented the Petition from the Roman Catholics of Ireland, would have the goodness to name the day on which it was his intention to bring the object of that Petition under the consideration of the house. The subject it involved was one of such importance, that he felt it his duty to be prepared for the discussion of it, whenever the noble baron should think fit to bring it forward.

Lord Grenville in reply, said that it was his intention, as far as he could now foresee, to bring forward his motion on that subject on the 10th of May next. Should it however be for the convenience of any noble lord to postpone the discussion for a few days, he for one could have no objection.

The Bishop of Durham only wished that no delay might take place after the day appointed by the noble baron.

CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.] The order of the day being read for resuining the debate on certain questions relative to the case of Judge Fox;

Lord Auckland rose to offer an amendment to a string of motions which he had Vol. IV.

His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales rose to express what had occurred to him as being the meaning and import of the observation alluded to, which had fallen from his noble relation. His noble relation, as his Royal Highness understood. him, wished to establish how essential it was that a liberal interpretation of the or ders of their lordships on the usage of debate should take place. A Noble Friend of his (lord Grenville) had been called to: order that evening by a noble earl oppos



site; and the remark of his noble relative tained that the precedents referred to by then was, that the same liberty (that of the noble lord could not apply, as they ocspeaking more than once) had been as-curred previous to the passing of the act sumed by the noble lord on the woolsack, of settlemant; admitted it to be the esta and that he thought it but proper that ablished law of the land that no judicial similar indulgence should be extended to proceeding of a criminal nature could ori his noble friend, and other lords on that ginate in that house; but contended that side of the house on which he commonly the measure now before the house was EOT sat. In making this observation, His of a judicial nature, instituted with the Royal Highness was conscious that nothing view of punishment. He could not, at the was more distant from the mind of his no- same time, see why the judges should not ble relation than to throw out any impro- be considered as equally safe in the bands: per reflection against any noble lord what- of the two houses of parliament as in those: ever, particularly against any person who of twelve ordinary men, whose verdict had the honor of filling the seat of Speaker against them would, if the arguments on of that house; and he submitted it to the the other side went to any thing, be obli candour of the noble and learned lord gatory on their lordships, and would be a himself, if the observation of his noble sufficient call on them to address his ma relation was not strictly consistent with jesty for the dismissal of any judge against that liberal practice which had generally whom such a verdict should be found. 19t distinguished the proceedings of their lordships.

Lord Grenville could not at all see the meaning of the distinction laid down by the noble and learned lord. He stated that this was not a judicial matter, or one to infer punishment. It undoubtedly, howe ever, was meant to go the length of grounding an address to his majesty for the dismissal of a judge for improper conduct in his judicial capacity, and such


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Lord Grenville rose in support of the motion of lord Auckland for referring the he contended could not originate in that different points which he had formerly sub-house. He would wish the noble and mitted to the house, for the opinion of the learned lord to point out to them where twelve judges. His' lordship particularly the line was to be drawn, and what, if any alluded to the precedents which he had thing short of murder, felony, or treason, pointed out on a former night, and stated was to be esteemed without the original that, in consequence of the doubts sug-cognizance of that house. As to the idea of gested by a noble and learned lord (Ellen- the act of settlement subjecting the judges borough), he had caused the records of to a jurisdiction of which they were for one of these cases, Bridgman v. Holt, to merly independent, he saw nothing in the be searched for, and it clearly made out act which sanctioned such an idea, but the his original assertion, being a case directly direct contrary. in point; there, as in the present case, a Lord Hawkesbury opposed the motion petition had been presented to the house of lord Auckland, and contended that the against three of the judges of the Com-proceedings of the house had been com mon Pleas, which the house ordered them pletely regular. In this opinion he was to answer. In the answer lodged, these seconded by lord Redesdale. judges refused to plead the merits of the case unless when called before a legal tri-laid down by lord Grenville, by recapitulabunal. They denied the jurisdiction of ting the arguments which he had formerly their lordships, and maintained that the adduced in support of his motions. calling them before the house was contrary to the established law of the land. On considering the matter, after taking the opinion of the other judges, the house came to be of the same mind, and the matter was dismissed.

Lord Auckland defended the positions

Earl Carisfort followed on the same side, and deprecated, in strong terms, the idea of subjecting the judges to a species of control from which every other subject of this country was exempt-thereby rendering them the tools of the minister of the day.


The Lord Chancellor recapitulated the arguments which he had formerly adduced in support of the contrary opinion; main-cessity of resorting to the opinion of the

The Earl of Suffolk maintained the ne


After some further discussion, lord Grenville agreed generally to move for the house going into a committee, without any reference to the standing order. The house having accordingly gone into a committee,

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judges as to the legality of their mode of sioners of Naval Enquiry, thought it proceeding. desirable to have the house put in posLord Ellenborough declared, that his session of every possible information that own opinion was decidedly in favour of might enable it to come to a just decision the proceeding by scire facias, as the ques-on this important subject. It was matetion would thereby have a legal investigaTrial that the discussion should not be untion, and as the learned judge would then necessarily protracted, but it was also to be tried by his peers. But, as the case be wished that every assistance should be now stands, their lordships had adopted afforded to the judgment of the house. another mode of proceeding. The law With this view it was that he proposed to clearly said, that they may in certain cases submit a motion to the house for the proproceed to address his majesty for the re-duction of a letter written by lord vismoval of a judge; it was therefore evident, count Melville to the Commissioners of that they may make inquiry as to the facts Naval Enquiry on Thursday the 28th of upon which that address was to be found-March, in elucidation of some points in ed. The words appeared to him to be so his lordship's case, which it would be impor unambiguous, and the inference that their tant to have before the house previous to lordships had the legal power of proceed- its final decision on this question. He was ing as they had done was so plain and na- not aware of any objection to his motion, tural, that he had no hesitation in saying but if any should exist, he should content that there was no necessity for asking any himself in the present instance with a noopinion of the learned lords upon the tice for to-morrow. As the printing of this letter would take up some time, and gentlemen would require also time to con sider its contents, in order to come to the discussion fully prepared, he submitted whether it would not be desirable to have the notice for Thursday withdrawn, and some early day in the ensuing week fixed instead of it.


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Earl Darnley supported the motion as the only means of ridding their lordships' minds of any doubt upon the case.-The question was then put, and there appeared contents 18; not contents 32.-Adjourn



Mr. For asked across the table, whe ther any answer had been returned to this letter?


Monday, April 1.


[MINUTES.] Bowyer's Lottery bill, was The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not read a third time and passed. Mr. Par-aware that any answer had been sent, but nell from the office of the Chancellor of was desirous that all the papers relating to the Exchequer for Ireland, presented an the subject should be laid before the house, account of the funded and unfunded debt and printed for the information of genof Ireland, and of the charges outstanding tlemen. upon the consolidated fund of Ireland on the 5th of January 1805.-Ordered to lie on the table and to be printed. A person from the Bank of England presented an account of all the dollars that had been issued by the Bank of England to the latest period that the same could be made out. Ordered to lie on the table and to be printed. The Neutral Ships bill, the American Goods Neutral Ships bill, and the Alien Privilege Prize Ships bill, were severally read a third time and passed, The American Treaty bill was reported. The Innkeepers Rates bill passed through a Committee, and, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow my 2

Mr. Grey, in the absence of his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread), felt it impossible to say whether he would consent to put off his motion to next week. Of this, however, he was certain, that it was the wish of his hon. friend, that opportunities of information should be afforded to the house. He agreed with the right hon. gent. that the discussion of this important question should not be protracted. He thought that by deferring the motion till Friday, sufficient time would be afforded, and suggested the propriety of adding to theright hon. gent.'s motion, a Copy of any answer or proceeding thereon."


The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought that Monday would be the earliest day when the house could be prepared for the discussion, if the hon. member (Mr. Fran-”

to the Tenth Report of the Commis-cis) who had a motion for flist'day, would


[LORD MELVILLE.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer with a view to the discussion which stood for Thursday next, relative

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