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man, or pay the penalty of 201. within the period of forty-four days, when the appointment of the men so to be raised was not to be assigned until three weeks posterior.


Tuesday, April 2..

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that gentlemen had inaccurately stated journed. both the facts, and the conclusions from those facts; he would admit, for the sake of argument, that their facts were correct, but he could not grant the same indulgence [MINUTES.] Counsel were farther heard to their deductions from them. For a mo- relative to the Scotch appeal, Cathcart v. ment, therefore, he would grant that the the earl of Cassilis, viz. Mr. Adam as leadadditional force bill had wholly failed: the ing counsel for the respondent. The bills natural deduction then was, that some upon the table were forwarded in their seother measure must be resorted to; but veral stages.-Lord Hawkesbury moved the gentlemen used it as an argument, that to first reading of the militia enlisting bill, the present, and no other expedient, should and that the bill be printed, which were or the country have recourse to supply the dered accordingly. His lordship then moved deficiency resulting from that disappoint- that the said bill be read a second time on ment. Gentlemen had likewise contend-Thursday next, and that the lords be sumedmoned for that day.-Ordered.

Mr. Windham here called the right hon. gent. to order, as going beyond the line of explanation; but declared, that he bad no objection to hear the right hon. gent. out in defence of this measure, if by the rules of their proceedings, he could have an opportunity of replying to him.

The Speaker said, he was aware that the right hon. gent. as far as he proceeded, did not keep within the limits of explanation, and that he only waited till that circumstance should be taken notice of by the house, or till by the tenor of his speech it could be seen whether what he already said would be brought to bear upon any point of explanation.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he should leave it to the judgment of the house, whether a short observation made by him before should, in the strictness of form, be considered as speaking to the question. What he said was certainly rather in explanation of what he said in a former stage, than in elucidation of the sentence which fell from him in this; but he should not proceed further if he found it to be against the pleasure of the house.

The Speaker again observed, that all which was necessary for him to do, was to state his conception of the order of proceeding, and as to the rest, it was to be disposed of at the pleasure of the house. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then said, that he did not wish to persist in any thing which was contrary to the forms. He was satisfied to let the question rest upon the ground on which it already stood; and he VOL. IV.

was the less inclined to urge the observal tions he had to offer, at the present mo. ment, as he made no doubt but the gent. opposite to him would afford him oppora tunities enough of doing so.―The bill was then passed without a division.-Ad

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[STANDING ORDER.] Lord Mulgrave gave notice, that he should, on Monday next, move to have the order relative to the house resolving into a committee on the motion of any noble peer, taken into consideration. To this he was principally induced, by what took place last night; and, on account of the constructions which were put upon the order in question, in the course of the debate. Such an order was, he thought, inconsistent with the dignity of their lordships' proceedings, and might be productive of the highest inconvenience, admitting it to empower any lord at his pleasure, thereby to constitute himself a majority of the house; and, even when the most important public business might be regularly under consideration, to oblige the house to go into a committee. An order construed so as to operate in that way, was so objectionable in every point of view, that it should not be suffered to remain a moment longer than was necessary. He concluded by moving that the lords be summoned for Monday next.

Earl Spencer observed, that though the noble secretary had not stated the nature of his intended motion, yet it might, in some degree, be conjectured. As to the degree of inconvenience which that or any other standing order might induce, he should not then offer au opinion. He, however, could not avoid remarking, that the noble lord's idea, that "under the operation of the order alluded to, any peer might constitute himself, in effect, a majority of the house," would be an argu

order in the book.

ment for the abrogation of every standing | ders; alluding to what had taken place last night, and its being contended that Lord Mulgrave acknowledged, he had a standing order admitted of no debate, not been sufficiently explicit in terms, as but that it should be immediately acted to the nature of his intended motion; upon; he adverted to the inconsistency of but, when he had expressed his disap-such an idea, which went to prevent a probation of the order, in so marked a noble and learned friend of his from demanner, he thought no doubt could arise monstrating that it was impossible to comas to his intention. However, he should ply with the order in question. now give a specific notice, that it was his intention to move, on Monday next, that the order in question be expunged.

Lord Mulgrave perfectly concurred in what had been thrown out by his noble friend on the woolsack. With respect to their lordships' being required by the order

The Lord Chancellor made some observations in support of what fell from his no-to sit in their proper places respectively; ble friend, relative to the effects and con- he conceived it to mean that the barons sequences of the order adverted to. He should sit together on certain benches, the was adverse from its being considered as a earls on other distinct benches, the dukes standing order; its import and wording on others, and so on. This consideration being different from all others of that de- was with him an additionally strong and forciscription. In the way in which it was con-ble objection to the order, which may renstrued by some noble lords last night, it der it necessary that their lordships should, was the most inconsistent thing imaginable; as at the word of command, arrange themfor, in the event of the usual notice being selves in a species of military array, or fall given for its suspension, on any particular into their respective ranks, like soldiers occasion, how could they know but any on the parade: but setting any thing like noble lord might, on the very day it was ap- a ludicrous consideration of such a propointed to be considered, move the house ceeding aside, it militated, as well as other to resolve into a committee? a proceeding serious and more important objections, which might be urged any moment while against the order.-The question was put, the order existed. An additional objec-and their lordships ordered to be sumtion against the order was its general im-moned for Monday next.-Adjourned. practicability; because, were the order literally and fully enforced, their lordships, while in such committee, were required to sit, each in their proper places, according to their ranks and degrees; a proceeding which, in that row house, their lordships for Bath.-Mr. Creevey gave notice, that would find it rather difficult to carry into effect.


Tuesday, April 2.

[MINUTES.] Lord John Thynne took the oaths and his seat on his re-election

he would to-morrow move for some further documents relative to the balances in Earl Spencer observed that, circum- the hands of the late hon. Keith Stuart.— stanced as their lordships were at present, Lord Brome brought in a bill for improv the proceeding adverted to would be to-ing the port of Ipswich in Suffolk, which tally impracticable. He recollected, that was read a first time.-Dr. Duigenan gave some time since, a commitee had been ap-notice, that he would to-morrow move for pointed to settle and arrange the proper leave to bring in a bill for the amendment seats for the respective orders of the peer- of Queen Anne's bounty act, in Ireland.— age in that house; but no report had yet Mr. S. Bourne, pursuant to order, presentbeen made upon the subject; that com- ed an account of the application of the mittee should be referred to. In the house surplus revenue of the Isle of Man.-Orin which they formerly sat, the respective dered to be printed.-The innkeepers bill places were regularly arranged; every peer went through a committee, and was ordered knew his proper place when it was neces- to be reported to-morrow. The customs sary he should sit in it; but, in the pre-duty bill, the American treaty bill, and sent house, that being not yet settled, such the Bengal council bill, were read a third a proceeding was impossible. time and passed.

The Lord Chancellor spoke in explanation, and slightly adverted to the inconveniencies which must sometimes arise from too literal an enforcement of the or

[IRISH MILITIA ENLISTING BILL.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the or-" der of the day for the house going into a committee on this bill.

Sir John Newport said, that having al-I thought the hon. bart. was however misready fully stated to the house his opinion taken in one point, as he was pretty sure there on this subject, and having found that the was an allowance given at the time of every sense of the house was for passing this embarkation, to carry the soldiers' wives bill, he should not now take up their time home. Notwithstanding the difficulty that with recapitulating the arguments he had he saw in the adoption of the suggestion, before offered; he rose now merely for the he should certainly give it his most serious purpose of suggesting to the right hon. the consideration. chancellor of the exchequer a measure that Sir John Newport said in explanation, he thought would have the most important that the allowance given to soldiers' wives effect in increasing the disposable force of on embarkation was a guinea and a half; the empire from Ireland, or rather in en- this might be barely sufficient to carry couraging those soldiers, who were not now them to the nearest Irish port, but they disposable, to become so. The measure landed completely destitute, and were he now begged leave most earnestly to re-obliged immediately to have recourse to commend, was to make such a provision begging. for the wives and children of those who volunteered, as would at least remove the principal objection which now stands in the way of their volunteering. The wives of the soldiers in the Irish militia and army of reserve now receive an allowance of two shillings a week, and formerly received four; but, from the moment any of these soldiers volunteered for general service, this allowance ceased. If this great discouragement was removed, he was sure they would be much more ready to enter the regular army. At present, the misery that was entailed on Ireland, under the system which now prevails, was most dreadful. The face of the country was covered with the wives and children of soldiers begging their bread. There was hardly. ever any considerable embarkation of troops from Portsmouth or Plymouth, that from 800 to 1,000 soldiers' wives were not turned loose to beg their way as well as they could to their own country. As most of them landed at the nearest Irish port of Cork and Waterford, he had often been an eye-witness of the extent of the evil which he now wished to be redressed.

Colonel Bagwell confirmed the statement of the hon. bart. as to the great degree of misery which the wives of not only the Irish soldiers in the regular army, but even in the militia and army of reserve experi enced. During the last war, four shillings a week was allowed to the wives of the militia, which was sufficient to keep them from the necessity of begging; but since it was reduced to two, that allowance had been insufficient. He thought there could be no greater encouragement to volunteering from the militia, than granting some provision to the families of the volunteers.

The house then went into a committee on the bill, when some trifling alterations were agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow. Adjourned.


Wednesday, April 3,

[MINUTES.] Mr. Adamwas heard in continuation in the Scots appeal, Cathcart v. the earl of Cassilis, on the part of the respondent. The several bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages. The innkeepers' rates bill, and several private bills, were brought up from the commons, and read a first time. A person from the post office presented an account of the net revenue of the post-office for 20 years, ending the 5th of Jan. 1805. Ordered to on the table.-Adjourned,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer allowed that the suggestion of the hon. bart. was of the utmost importance, and deserved the most serious consideration. He was not then prepared to give any opinion on the subject, but he perceived that many difficulties stood in the way of the adop-lie tion of this suggestion. He was aware of the distress which was often felt in Ireland on account of there being no established system of poor laws in that country as there is in this; but he did not know how parliament could grant a specific allowance up the report of the committee on the to the families of Irish soldiers, which was bakers' bill; which was agreed to, and the not granted to the families of the soldiers bill ordered to be engrossed. Mr, Manof the rest of the united Kingdom. Hening obtained leave to bring in a bill for


Wednesday, April 3,

[MINUTES.] Sir John Anderson brought

rendering more effectual the provisions of fenclosures; also, a copy of a letter from the London dock act. On the motion of the navy board to the admiralty, dated 1st Dr. Dhigenan, leave was given to bring in April, 1805, in answer to the abovemena bill to amend the act for building Glebe tioned letter of sir H. Popham; also, a houses in Ireland. The following papers, copy of a letter from sir H. Popham to on the motion of Mr. Creevey, were order-the navy board, dated Feb. 28, 1805; also, ed to be laid before the house, viz. A fa copy of a letter from sir H. Popham to &py of the power of attorney, or other the navy board, dated March 26, 1805, with instrument, granted by the lords of the the answer of the board thereto. treasury to the then lord advocate of Scot- Mr. Grey said, he did not rise to object land, now lord justice Clerk, to prosecute to the production of these or any other or give discharges for the claims made by papers that might tend to elucidate the government on the late admiral Keith subject, but merely to remark, that seveStewart: an account of all sums of money, ral weeks had elapsed since a variety of or securities for money, paid by the repre-papers moved for on both sides had been sentatives of the late admiral Keith Stew-presented, since which no inquiry had art to the lord justice Clerk, in pur- taken place. By such motions as the presuance of the said power of attorney, spe- sent the discussion might be postponed to cifying the times when such sums or secu- an indefinite period. nities were paid; a copy of the account Mr. Dickenson stated the grounds of his settled and discharged with the represen-motion, which were, that sir H. Popham tatives of the late admiral Keith Stewart, having discovered some imperfections in by the lord justice Clerk acting under the the original report of the navy board, had aforesaid authority; a copy of the petition written to the admiralty on the subject, from the town of Edinburgh to the lords and that the amended report had not been of the treasury, praying that 21,0001. be received by the admiralty until yesterday. granted out of the balances due from the Some further conversation ensued belate admiral Keith Stewart, for the pur- tween Mr. Grey, the Chancellor of the poses therein mentioned; together with Exchequer, Mr. Dickenson, and Mr. Kinthe reference made by the lords of the naird; in the course of which Mr. Kintreasury to the court of exchequer in Scot-naird intimated his intention of bringing Tand on the subject. On the motion of forward a motion relative to sir H. PopMr. S. Bourne, it was likewise ordered, ham, on Tuesday, the 7th of May next. that there be laid before the house a copy Mr. Dickenson's motions were then agreed of such further proceedings as may have to. been had by the lords of the treasury for the recovery of any sum due to the public from the representatives of the late admiral Keith Stewart. On the motion of Mr. Giles, it was ordered, that there be laid before the house a return of the number of effective men raised under the additional defence act from the 1st of Feb. last to the land in consequence of the union, relative period of the latest return, stating the to the claim for compensation from the atnumber of men raised per week, and spe-torney and solicitor general of Ireland;' cifying those provided by the parish offi- together with a copy of the opinion of the cers, and those procured by recruiting attorney and solicitor general of England officers; as likewise the number that had upon this case. The reason which inenlisted into his majesty's forces for gene-duced him to bring forward this motion, ral service. Mr. Bagwell brought in the the hon. bart. stated to be this, that the bill for regulating Irish freeholders, which house should be put in possession of the was read a first time. The innkeepers' bill, nature and conduct of this singular comand the Irish spirit permit bill, were read a mission. It appeared, that notwithstandhard time and passed. ing their appeal to the judgment of the attorney and solicitor general of England, they had acted in direct contradiction to the opinion delivered by those learned gentlemen. But still more, and it was particuHarly necessary to call the attention of par

[IRISH UNION COMMISSIONERS.] Sir John Newport rose to make his promised motion for the production of a copy of the case laid before the attorney and solicitor general of England on the 16th of May, 1801, by direction of the commissioners for awarding compensation in Ire

NDUCT OF SIR HOME POPIAM.] Mr. Lerson jun. moved, that there be laid the house a copy of a letter from ne Popham to the secretary of the iralty, dated 25th Feb. 1805, with its

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Mr. Kinnaird thought the hon. gent. who spoke last had made an extraordinary proposition by desiring to have the opinion of the only two gentlemen in the kingdom, who, by the rules of law and common sense, were necessarily excluded from giving it, because it was a case upon their own claim.-The motion was then put and carried.

liament to the subject, this commission|tion concerning the affairs of Ireland, he had now been existing for several years, thought the opinion of the attorney and sowithout really having any thing to do, and iicitor general of that part of the United seemed still determined to go on. The Kingdom ought to be taken also. commission consisted of four persons, each of whom received a salary of 1,2001. per year, and it was now above three years since the commissioners wrote a letter to the lord heutenant, stating, that their business was so much diminished that they had no occasion to meet every day, as they had previously done, and requesting that they might be called on to meet only every Monday. In order to contrive some appearance of employment, he understood that those commissioners prolonged an inquiry upon a particular claim for several months, dividing the inquiry between them two and two alternately, Monday alter Monday. It really struck him as matter of surprize and shame that such a commission should have been so long tole- The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, rated, and there appeared no disposition" that these papers do lie upon the table whatever to put an end to it. Indeed, ac- to be perused by the members of the cording as it went on, it was likely to con-house;" and he said he should immediatetinue for ever, unless something was done ly afterwards move that they be printed. to terminate its existence. Feeling that Mr. Francis wished to know whether a any expenditure of the public money that motion could not be made to print them could be avoided under the present cir-immediately, so that there should be no cumstances of the country ought to be delay in making them known to members. prevented, and that this commission was now become unnecessary, he should take occasion very soon to call the attention of the house to this subject.

[LORD MELVILLE'S LETTER TO THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.] Mr. Williams, secretary to the commissioners of naval enquiry, presented a Copy of a Letter from lord viscount Melville to the commissioners of naval enquiry, dated the 28th of March, 1805, and of the answer thereto by the commissioners.

The Speaker observed that the motion, that these papers do lie upon the table to be perused by the members of the house, must be disposed of before any thing else.


Dr. Duigenan said, that he was a mem-could regularly be done. ber of the commission alluded to at the The Chancellor of the Exchequer said they time stated in the motion, and that he could be printed without difficulty by todid not recollect any such case as the hon. morrow. bart. alluded to. As three of the commissioners were lawyers he did not think they required any advice from the law officers mentioned in the motion, or from any other persons as to the mode of perform-now read." ing this duty. The learned doctor added, that he had long since resigned his place in the commission.

Mr. Alderman Combe, by way of giving to the house the contents immediately, moved an amendment, instead of laying them on the table, "that these papers be

Sir John Newport said, that it had been already stated by the commissioners themselves, that such case had been laid before the attorney and solicitor general of England, and all he wished was, to see the opinion which had been given upon the case so stated.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer had no objection, and therefore consented to withdraw his motion for the present to make way for that of the worthy alderman. They were accordingly read by the clerk at the table, and are as follows:

Copy of a Letter from Lord Melville to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, dated the 28th of March 1805.

Gentlemen; having read your Tenth Report, and observing particularly the following paragraph in the 141st page

Mr. Sturges Bourne was ready to pay attention to the opinions of eminent gentlemen at the bar, on cases fairly stated" However the apprehension of disclosing to them, and especially those who were so "delicate and confidential transactions of eminent in their profession as the gentle- government might operate with lord men alluded to; but as this was a ques "Melville in withholding information re

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