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"specting advances to other departments, you proceeded to inquire whether I had we do not perceive how that apprehen-ever any understanding expressed or im. "sion can at all account for his refusing to plied with Mr. Trotter respecting any parstate, whether he derived any profit or ticipation of advantage derived from the "advantage from the use or employment custody of the public money, or whether "of money issued for the services of the I at any time knowingly derived any adnavy. If his lordship had received into vantages to myself from any advances of "his hands such monies, as were advanc- public money, I should have no hesitation "ed by him to other departments, and in declaring, as I now declare, that there "had replaced them as they were repaid, never was any such understanding, nor "he could not have derived any profit or any thing like it, between Mr. Trotter “advantage from such transactions, how- and myself; that I never knowingly deriv, "ever repugnant they might be to the ed any such advantages; and whatever "provisions of the legislature, for the safe emolument accrued to Mr. Trotter in the "custody of public money." I think it conduct of the pecuniary concerns of the necessary to state the following observa- office was, so far as I am informed, extions, in order to place in their just view clusively his own.-With respect to any the grounds on which I declined answering advances which Mr. Trotter might make your question, and which you appear not on my private account, I considered myto have accurately, understood. When self as debtor to him alone, and as standyou first called upon me for informa. ing with regard to him in no other predi tion, I stated to you that I had no cament than I should have done with any materials on which I could frame such other man of business, who might be in an account as you required me at that time occasional adyance to me in the general to prepare; and, in a communication with management of my concerns entrusted to Mr. Trotter, before my examination on him. It is impossible for me to ascertain, the 5th of Nov. last, I learned, for the from any documents or vouchers in my first time, that in the accounts he had hands, or now existing, what the extent kept respecting my private concerns, he of those advances might have been at any had so blended his own private monies particular period. The accounts which with what he had in his hands of public you have inserted in your Report, I never money, that it was impossible for him to saw till I saw them in the Report itself. ascertain with precision whether the ad- They are no accounts of mine, nor am I vances he had occasion to make to me in party to them. They contain a variety of the course of his running private account sums issued nóminally to me, which never with me, were made from the one or from came into my hands, and they give no the other aggregate sums which constituted credit for various sums received by Mr. his balance with Messrs. Coutts. This cir- Trotter on my private account from cumstance, which I understood Mr, Trot- my salary as treasurer of the Navy, and ter had distinctly communicated to you, other sources of income, of which he was made it impossible for me to return any in the receipt, nor do they take any notice other answer than I did to the general of the security of which he was in posses question which you put to me Whether sion, for the re-payment of any balance at Mr. Trotter had applied any of the money any time due to him from private funds. • issued for carrying on the current ser- With respect to the sums of naval money vice of the Navy, for my benefit or ad- advanced to me, and applied to other servantage?' and to this circumstance I uni-vices, I do not feel it necessary to make formly referred in my answer to other any additional observations, except to dequestions respecting the manner in which clare, that all those sums were returned Mr. Trotter applied the money in his to the funds from which they were taken, hands.When you put the question to having in no, instance been withdrawn from me, "Whether I did direct or authorise it for any purpose of private emolument or
Mr. Trotter to lay out or apply, or advantage.-Before I conclude, I wish to "cause to be laid out or applied,, any of correct an inaccuracy which I observe in "the money issued for carrying on the one part of the evidence in Appendix ❝ current service of the Navy, to my be- No. 7, page 192. The question is put to "nefit or advantage?", my answer was, me, "Did you derive any profit or adto the best of my recollection I never did.'. That answer I now repeat.
vantage from the use or employment of money issued for carrying on the current
"service of the Navy, between the 19th parties to whose conduct that Report relates. "of Aug. 1802, and 30th of April, 1803; We were occupied several months in invesor between the 1st of Feb. 1784, and tigating the mode of conducting the busi31st of Dec. 1785, during which periods ness of the office of Treasurer of the Navy. you held the office of Treasurer of the Those who were examined by us had the Navy?" Which question I there answer fullest opporunity of stating and explaining by a reference to the answer given to a all things which related to the management similar question put to me before. This of that department, or to the share which answer is inaccurate, in so far as it con- they respectively had in it; and of cortains a reference to Mr. Trotter's mode of rectig, at any time, during the progress of blending his funds in his private account the Inquiry, any mistakes which might with Messrs. Coutts. Mr. Trotter was not inadvertently have been made. Our opipaymaster till the year 1786. The circum- nion and observations upon the irregula stances, therefore, relative to Mr. Trot-rities and abuses which we discovered were ter's account, which precluded my return- formed and drawn up with the utmost care ing an answer to your former questions, do and deliberation; and they are now subnot apply to the periods specified in that mitted to the three branches of the legis mentioned, and I can, therefore, have no lature, as the act, by which we are apdifficulty in declaring, that during those pointed, requires. If it could be made to periods I did not derive any advantage appear upon a representation to them that from the use or employment of public mo- any thing has been omitted on our part, ney issued for carrying on the service of that any misunderstanding or error had the Navy. Having stated these facts, it is occurred, and that a further inquiry is almost unnecessary to add, that I am at adviseable, upon these, or any other any time ready to verify them upon my grounds, it would be for them to direct oath. I have the honour to be, gentle- such farther inquiry, and to decide by men, &c. (Signed) MELVILLE. whom, and in what manner, it should be Answer of the Commissioners of Naval En-prosecuted; but, in the present circumquiry to the above Letter, dated Office of stauces, it appears to us that we cannot Naval Enquiry, Great George-street, with propriety resume it. We have the April 2, 1805. honour to be, my lord, &c.&c. (Signed) Ch. M. Pole, Ewan Law, John Ford, H. Nicholls, W. Mackworth Praed.
My Lord-We have received your lordship's letter of the 28th of last month, by which you intimate that we appear not to have accurately understood the grounds on which you declined answering our ques-table for the use of the members of this tions, and submit to us some observations house, and also that they be printed. Orin order to place those grounds in their dered.-Adjourned.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer then moved, that these papers do lie upon the
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, April 4.
just view; and also express a wish, before you conclude, to correct an inaccuracy in one part of your evidence, and a readiness to verify by your oath the facts stated in [MINUTES.] Counsel were farther heard that letter. If it be the object of this com- relative to the Scots Appeal, Cathcart, munication, that we should again require bart v. the earl of Cassilis, viz. Mr. Adam, your lordship's attendance, for the pur-in continuation, as leading counsel for the pose of being examined, touching these respondent. On the motion of the earl of matters, and that we should make a sup-Suffolk, lord viscount Melville's letter plemental Report upon the result of that to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry examination, and such other examinations was ordered to be laid before the house. as we might thereupon judge necessary, The bills upon the table were forwarded in there can be no disinclination on our parts their respective stages.-On the second (as far as we are concerned in the pro-reading of Bowyer's Lottery bill, Lord ceeding) to meeting your lordship's wishes: Ellenborough made a few observations: But it appears to us that the Inquiry, though he was by no means favourable to which is the subject of the Tenth Report, the general principle of lotteries; yet, unhas attained that period when it would der the circumstances of the case, the prenot become us to adopt such a measure sent bill was one which might, without merely upon the suggestion of any of the much risk of injurious consequences, be
assented to by their lordships.-After some ple of the bill, at any time it should sćem remarks from lord Walsingham, of a ten-proper to their lordships. He had reason dency favourable to the measure, the bill to believe, that he should be able to prove was read a second time, and ordered to to their lordships, that it was a measure be referred to the consideration of a com- extremely necessary, and unattended with mittee.-Lord Grenville moved that any of the disadvantages which were ap their lordships be summoned for the 10th prehended as likely to result from it. of May, on which day, he said, it was Lord Grenville expressed his opinion his intention to offer a motion relative to that the bill, to which he was favourably the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Lord inclined, was one of considerable imporAuckland expressed his opinion, that on a tance. He was aware of the beneficial topic of such peculiar importance, as that tendency of a mixed patronage with respect adverted to by the noble baron, some idea to clerical preferments; at the same time, should be given as to the nature of the in-he saw no necessity for restraining the tended motion. Lord Grenville, in reply, universities from their due share in that observed he had no objection unreservedly patronage; as no body or corporation to state, that at present, his intention was whatever could, he conceived, exercise ay to move on that day for a committee to extensive right of patronage more benetake the petition into consideration.-Lord ficially to the interests of religion, or of Auckland announced his intention to learning, and, with respect to the interest bring forward some farther propositions, of the latter, he conceived that a quick in reference to the pending case of Mr. succession to the livings would be advanJustice Fox, and moved, that their lord- tageous. ships be summoned on the occasion, but on The Earl of Suffolk took occasion to adwhat day we were unable to collect. The vert to the bill which passed not long since, order for the exclusion of strangers was for ameliorating the condition of the poor then enforced, and the door closed for er orders of the clergy. The leading proabout twenty minutes.., In the interval, as visions of that bill, he understood, were we could collect, their lordships were en-as yet nugatory; and it was his intention, gaged in their judicial capacity, in investi-on a future day, to bring the subject begating the circumstances of a case of a fore their lordships. He had several letpersonal, and very particular nature, viz.lers from curates upon the subject; some some very gross and flagrant misconduct of which, without stating names, he inof the coachman of a noble peer on Mon-tended to communicate to the house. He day night last, to one or two of the officers expected more letters on the subject; and inferior servants of the house; two of perhaps what he then said would operate the marshalmen, and some of the persons in some degree as an advertisement to that alluded to were shortly interrogated upon body of men to send him more commųthe subject, and the result was, that pro-nications of a similar nature. per persons were dispatched to take the The Duke of Norfolk expressed his undelinquent into custody for the purpose of derstanding that some important modihis being brought to the bar of the house. fications to the bill were intended. [UNIVERSITIES ADVOWSON BILL.] Lord Hawkesbury, after adverting generally to the nature of this bill, which stood for commit-most competent to advise upon the subment that evening, said it was a proceeding ject; and had maturely considered it himwhich, if entered upon according to the self; and the result was, that the bill was order, would materially interfere with the produced in its present form. It may, discussion of business of great national however, admit of some modifications; importance. The bill, he conceived to be but, in his mind, it needed none; and that of that nature as urgently to require a the exigency of the case required such speedy discussion. He would therefore an act should be passed.-The question move, and to which he hoped no serious was put, and the committee on the bill objection would be entertained, that the deferred till the above-mentioned day. committee on the bill be deferred till Friday, the 26th of April.
The Bishop of Oxford had no objection to enter upon the discussion of the princi
The Bishop of Oxford, in explanation, observed, that he had consulted those the
[MILITIA EN LISTING BILL.] The order of the day for the second reading of the Militia Enlisting Bill being read,
Lord Hawkesbury rose, and stated, that
after the thorough and repeated discus- principle admitted, the mode of reduction sions the subject had hitherto undergone, was comparatively of little importance; it would not be necessary for him to take the execution of the present measure was, up much of their lordships' time, or to in the first instance, confided to militia enter into any general considerations of officers themselves, who, he trusted, would the subject. He would first observe, that feel the great public importance of the when the immense number of men who duty entrusted to them. A measure simiwere in arms in this country was consi-lar to the present was adopted in the dered, their lordships would soon be aware course of the last war, but destitute of the that no military force whatever could be advantageous provisions of the present more respectable than that of the united bill. The great importance of its object kingdom. The only difference of opinion being generally admitted, he trusted its which could arise, was as to the arrange-details would, on discussion, in the regular' ment and composition of this force, and opportunity, be found equally unobjecthe most effectual means of increasing the tionable. Any farther commentary on the disposable force of the country. There merits of the measure he should leave to was a general admission that this descrip- other noble lords more conversant than tion of our military force should, under himself in the particular subject. He the present circumstances, form a much should now content himself with moving larger proportion, particularly with respect their lordships to give a second reading to to infantry, of the whole, than it did at the bill. present. The object of the bill now before The Marquis of Buckingham said, he could their lordships was to effect that; and the not give a silent vote upon the occasion. He principal question which could arise, was denied that any similitude existed between as to the means adopted. The mode pro- the present bill and that alluded to, aš posed by the bill, was to allow a certain enacted during the late war; there was then proportion of the militia forces to volun- an imperious duty upon them so to enact, teer into the regular forces, and into the and the circumstances of the country were royal marines. It should be considered, widely different as to its defensive situation that the present militia establishment was and the naval power of the enemy; the calculated without a reference to a volun- present measure would, he contended, teer force, at the immense amount at prove inefficacious, and it was odious and which it stood at present. The principle disgusting to the militia officers in general; of reducing the militia had been more and all the military measures of the prethan once recognised by parliament, espe- sent ministers were injurious to the militia cially by the act of last session, and the system. In the former instance, the miquestion that remained, therefore, was, litia were in number too great and unwhether, under all the circumstances of wieldy to be conducted on true militia the country, it would not greatly conduce principles, and the preamble of the bill he to the public benefit, to permit men to alluded to, declared that a great defensive volunteer from the militia into the regu-force was no longer necessary in the counlars, under the restrictions proposed by try. There existed at that time also a the bill, so as to increase our disposable legal necessity for diminishing the militia. force to the desired amount. He was a In all these particulars the country was at real friend to the militia system, but, he present in the reverse, or in a very different must contend, that on true militia princi-state, and ministers themselves must feel, ples, the present number and proportion that the defensive force of the country of that force were too great to be kept up. could not be safely diminished. The The present state of the militia, with respect measure, taking it in every point of view, to its officers, was also a matter of serious had his decided disapprobation. consideration, and in these a great defi- The Earl of Derby followed on the ciency, to an aggregate, he believed, of same side, and supported the arguments of between 400 and 500, particularly of the noble marquis. He censured the officers duly qualified, at present existed. measure in question as unjust in its prinThe present volunteer system not a little ciple, and unlikely to produce the desired contributed to affect the officering of the effect. It was a miserable expedient to militia. This latter force, with a reference think of robbing one branch of the milito the true militia principles, should not tary force to supply another. Some of the be suffered to exceed 40,000 men. That provisions of the bill would tend to defeat VOL. IV.
its object; and it was idle, he conceived, respect to the statement of the noble earl, to think of procuring 17,000 men by it. that a French force was now riding triumIn illustrating this position, the noble earl phant in the West Indies, he had every entered into some detailed considerations reason to believe that a British force was of the measure. What must Bonaparte now there which would effectually prevent think, on seeing us driven to such a shift the former from riding triumphant in the to procure a disposable force to that West Indies, and he could add to this, amount? He deprecated the rejection that every precaution had been taken by of his right honourable friend's idea in sending additional troops to guard our another place, of not enlisting the men possessions in that quarter of the world. for life. Adverting to the general mis-Ile paid some warm compliments to the Conduct of ministers, he glanced at the noble earl for his conduct as lord-lieutenant recent successes of the enemy in the West of a county, in which capacity, although Indies. He imagined that 40,000 men, administration had not the satisfaction of as the extent of the militia, was as many his support in that house, he did every as could be kept up on true militia princi- thing possible to promote all those maca ples, and he considered what fell from sures which they employed for the benefit the noble secretary as a sort of pledge, of the public service. that such a number of militia forces were Lord Borringdon observed, that the vote to be kept up. There were a zeal and of every noble lord ought to be directed by spirit in the country, if properly directed, the answer which he could give to the adequate to all its exigencies; and an three following questions. First, it might abundant disposable force was to be obtain-be asked, whether it was not extremely ed, were proper means resorted to. It was desirable, that a large body of well-trained impossible not to perceive that the militia soldiers should at this moment be added officers in general were disgusted with the to our disposable force? If it were admit present measure. A great deal of the mi-ted that this was extremely desirable, theu litary difficulties, which the country at the next question came to be how this present laboured under, particularly in addition was to be obtained, and what regard to inlisting men, was to be attri-mode could best answer the end in view? buted to the conduct of the late minister, And in the third place, it was to be conhow a member of that house. After the sidered whether the inconveniencies at. -treaty at Amieus, had a different line of tending the procuring of this disposable conduct been adopted with respect to the force were so great as to counterbalance militia, its numbers might easily and all the advantages that could be derived cheaply have been completed, and kept from it? That it was necessary, at this up, by means of the numerous discharges moment, to have as large a disposable from the other branches of the national force as possible, few who were properly force. With the noble marquis, he gene-sensible of the condition of Europe could rally and strongly disapproved of the deny. It was the opinion of military men, present measure, and censured the policy that if one half of the force now expected as weak and dangerous, which, in the pre-to be raised had co-operated with the sent circumstances of this country, went Austrian army at the battle of Marengo, to diminish her defensive force. the event of the day would have been extremely different from what it was. His lordship also adverted to the brave conduct of the militia in Egypt. The present was the best mode of procuring them that could be adopted, and the advantages, he was convinced, would far out-balance all the inconveniencies. He concluded, by expressing his hearty assent to the measure, but was afraid that it would not produce so great a number as was expected.
Lord Cawdor thought that the right hon. gent. at the head of affairs little understood the matter, when he thought that he would be able to enlist a force, such as the present bill proposed, from the militis
The Earl of Buckinghamshire said, the Jate administration had found it expedient to increase the militia to the amount at which it now stood, and had not the act of last session, for gradually reducing the militia, been passed, he should not have consented to the present measure; that act, however, having passed, the only question was, whether the militia should be reduced, without the country having the benefit of 17,000 men being added to its disposable force or not. Under these circumstances, he did not hesitate to give his warmest and most cordial support to the present bill. With