nounced illegal, Mr. Wilson naturally supposed would implicate him in the penalties applicable to the illegality of the transaction, and on that ground alone he declined to aners. But although the charge of legal guilt might attach to this man, I believe that he is perfectly free from any imputation on the score of morality, Still, though I entertain this opinion of Mr. Wilson, if this house pronounced a different opinion, I should bow to its authority, and remove him from office. But no such opinion has been de

while his trial was pending. But the moment the sense of this house was known, when I no longer could prejudice a man whose guilt, till declared by a competent tribunal, I should have felt it unfair to pre-swer the interrogatories of the commissionjudge by any act of mine, I removed Mr. Trotter; and my reasons for not removing him before that sense was known, will, I have no doubt, be deemed satisfactory by every dispassionate mind.-Nay, I have litthe doubt that although a learned gent. (Mr. Ponsonby) remarked with such severity on my conduct on a former evening, that hon. gentleman himself will, upon a little reflec-clared, and I think him not at all fairly imtion, if he possess the mind and feelings of a plicated in the guilt attributed to the transBritish lawyer, be ready to confess that he action which led to this discussion. Why was wrong, and that to have taken a diffe- then. should I comply with the wish exrent course from that which I have pursued pressed by the hon. gentleman? or with would have been unfair, tyrannical, and op- what justice could I sacrifice a man whom I pressive. With regard to Mr. Wilson, who conscientiously believe to be innocent, to holds a secondary station in the navy pay suspicion, or to clamour; unless some new office-to him I do not conceive that any evidence, should arise, or some competent imputation attaches, that would warrant me tribunal should pronounce Mr. Wilson in acting towards him in the manner which guilty? I have not, I cannot have, any, perthe hon. gentleman desires. On the con- sonal partiality for Mr. Wilson, whom I trary, I consider Mr. Wilson to be one of know only as a clerk in my office: but I the most industrious and deserving servants will mete out a different measure of justice of the public. But, says the hon. gentleman, to this or any other man whom circumMr. Wilson is reported by the commission- stances may place in my power to what the ers as having given a reluctant testimony; hon. gentleman seems disposed to shew to as having refused to answer questions, lest lord Melville. But to return to the question; they should tend to criminate himself. Sir, the hon. gent. has now renewed all the unthe conduct of Mr. Wilson before the com- fairness, and apparently forgotten and thrown missioners of naval inquiry has been thus aside all the fairness and moderation, of explained to me; and not to me only, but, which he thought it necessary to assume the if I am not much misinformed, to the naval semblance at least in the last debate. He commissioners themselves, I speak in the has resorted to every means of aggravating presence of one of them (sir C. Pole), who his charge: he has collected every circumwill correct me if I am wrong, though they stance that could tend to give an unfavour, have not thought fit to report that part of able impression against the object of his acMr. Wilson's evidence. Mr. Wilson acted cusation, and has even construed the act occasionally, in the absence of the paymas- which was a mark of the noble lord's defeter, and used to sign drafts in the usual form rence to the house, and of his humiliation, on the bank, for the money wanted for the into an aggravation of his criminality. The office. If there was any legal guilt in the hon. gent. at one time calls particular parts manner of executing this part of the duty of of the tenth report dark and doubtful, which the paymaster, and that there was legal at another time he assumes to furnish clear guilt in it must not now be doubted, since and glaring evidence to aggravate the guilt of the house has.so decided, Mr. Wilson, so lord Melville. And he has travelled not only far as he acted in this respect for the prin- out of the charge itself, but out of the report, cipal, participated in that legal guilt, and into the whole range of party politics, into was liable, or thought himself liable, to the history of every action of lord Melville's whatever might be the legal consequences political life, to collect topics, which have of it. That he had ever acted with a view no natural relation to the subject properly to private emolument, has not been sup- before the house, and all calculated obviousposed or charged against him. His evi-ly to inflame the passions upon a charge dence upon oath expressly denies that impu- which its advocates term an appeal to justation. The share which he had had, as tice.-The hon. gent. tells you, that the mosubstitute for another, in a practice pro- tion this night is nothing more than a con .. VOL. IV.

firmation of the vote of the former night. I would challenge any man to produce an in But the vote of the former night, as amend-stance where party prejudice has been found ed, only declared that the noble lord had to obstruct, or delay, or influence the proviolated the law, but it did not charge him motion of merit, whether political or mili with having done so for private emolument. tary.-Sir, the hon. gent. has congratulated You have indeed recorded your opinion that his country on the extraordinary public vir lord Melville has been guilty of a violation tue which has been manifested on this occa of the act of parliament, in consequence of sion. If he means the virtue displayed by which certain advantages have resulted to the house of commons, I cordially agree another person. But you have not said that with him. Whatever I may have presumed the noble lord has had any participation of to think of the vote of Monday night, as such advantages, nor does any thing appear hasty or premature, no man more heartily to justify such an inference. I trust, there- than I subscribes to the purity and integrity fore, that when the hon. gent. so trium- of the motives which dictated it. If the phantly declares his conviction that the hon. gent. means to compliment himself on house cannot act inconsistently with itself; the part which he has taken, on the part that it will not disappoint the just expecta- which he this night takes, in urging the tion of the country; I trust, sir, he will house to a rigour beyond the measure of jus not find himself mistaken. The house will tice, and, I venture to affirm, beyond the follow up the vote of last night wi à consis- measure of its own feelings of what is right; tency-that is, in the same sense and spirit I am far from presuming to deny his claim in which that vote was given. The house to that credit, for an exertion of virtue be will not disappoint the opinion which the yond the ordinary rate of most men's capa country has conceived of its justice, temper, city, and beyond the usual practice of the and wisdom, by first voting a man guilty of country and the times in which we live. a lesser offence (I do not mean to vindicate The hon. gent. must have gone far back into lord Melville, or extenuate the infraction of the times of ancient Greece and Rome to find the law for which you have held him respon- models of that sort of virtue. There he will tible; but an offence merely legal is less in have found, no doubt, that when a great the eyes of every man than the gross moral political delinquent was to be brought to jus guilt which the hon. gent. would now im- tice, and an appeal made to the people to pute to him, and which he would fain per- aggravate the severity of punishment, the suade you, contrary to your own knowledge accuser was not generally found among those and recollection, you meant to impute to who had received any injury from the accus him yourselves), and then turning round ed; but among those whom he had served. and apportioning the punishment, not to the And, sir, when I look back to the proceedcrime of which it has found lord Melville ings of this house in the year 1795, when I guilty, but to all the foul aspersions and ag- recollect the serious charges which were then gravated charges which the hon. gent. has in brought forward against two most eminent this stage of the business thought it decent commanders, now members of the other to heap upon him; to which charges the house of parliament (and for their services house is no party; and which it not only well entitled to that distinction); when I did not sanction by its vote of the last night, recollect that in the debates which arose up but upon deliberation refused to agree to on those charges, their most active defender, even an ambiguous and doubtful affirmation their most indefatigable advocate, was that of them. The hon, gent. Las disclaimed very noble lord who now is made the theme any other motive for his motion this night of the hon. gent.'s violence and invectives but a view to public justice. What has been and when I see that, noble lord, now no already done towards that end? Is the state longer a minister, already pulled down from of humiliation to which the noble lord has the high eminence on which he stood, and been reduced nothing? Is such an end to such prostrate at the feet of the house of commons, a political life nothing? Has not the noble no longer formidable from power or daitlord already suffered quite enough to disarm gerous from influence; when I see him now, any set of men not actuated by the most after his political existence has ceased, after rancorous feeling of party enmity? And the crimes of his political nature (be they against whom is this enmity directed? what they may) have been severely visited Against one who never was himself suspect- upon him; when I see him now in this deed of deserving the character of a bitter po- fenceless state persecuted and hunted down, litical antagonist. In any of the public si-and by whom? by the friends of sir John tuations which lord Melville has occupied, I Jervis and the kindred of sir Charles Grey;

I cannot, sir, refuse to the hon. gent. the praise of Spartan inflexibility, of more than Roman virtue: but while humbly and at a distance I admire the exertion of these high qualities in him, I pray to Almighty God to spare me the pain of being ever called upon to imitate his example!

they not call for the fullest investigation of every part of their conduct, and appeal to the fair decision of the house? The right hon. gent. has spoken as if these noble persons received favours from the noble lord who appeared in their defence; but I utterly dis. claim the existence of any such favours. The Mr. Grey-I rise, sir, under no incon- noble lord defended them because they had siderable share of embarrassment. I was in served with credit and honour those by some doubt, whether I should take notice of whom they were employed. This sort of the observations of the right hon. gent. at all. justice was due, not merely to their particuIt is, indeed, unpleasant to me at all times lar merits, but it was due to the country to enter into any thing in this house where whose interests they had promoted. Will I am personally concerned. With regard to the right hon. gent. opposite, who, on the whatever I or my hon. relation have done, I occasion when the motion for an inquiry do not feel that we have merited the reproof was brought forward, moved the amendof the right hon. gent., since I do believe we ment, say, that he did not seriously believe peither of us have, any obligation to confess that the charge was unfounded-will he say to the zeal, impartiality, or ability of the no- that he was not convinced that their conble lord. The right hon. gent. accuses me duct, so far from being liable to censure, for the warmth I have displayed respecting was entitled to the highest approbation and this business, and in answer to this accusa- gratitude? Am I then to be told that the nɔtion it is only necessary to say, that I am ble lord who appeared in defence of the noquite unconscious of any such bitterness, and ble lords was conferring a favour on them, it would, I think, be rather difficult for the or any of those with whom they were conright hon. gent. to shew in what way it has nected? Am I to hold myself under obligabeen evinced. He chooses to congratulate tions to the noble lord for a defence of those me and my hon. friend near me (Mr. Whit- gallant officers, whom he himself had emnbread) on our more than Spartan virtue in ployed, and who had signalized themselves voting against the noble lord, who, as he al- in the public service? The right hon. gent., leges, was the champion of those who are however, takes some merit to the noble lord dear to us by the ties of blood or the con- for employing those who were known not nexions of friendship. He tells us that the to be in all cases favourable to the adininisbattle which the noble lord fought for these trat on of that period. Without dwelling on relations was disinterested, and he admires this point, or ascertaining how far the nothe return we have made for these magna- ble lords at that time differed from minisnimous exertions. This, sir, is a strange ters, it is sufficient for me to say, that to kind of language; but it will be proper for employ naval and military men of all difme to call the attention of the house to the ferent parties, is no proof of the moderation circumstances to which the right hon. gent. of ministers. They are compelled, whether has alluded. It is sufficiently in the recol- they will or not, to employ the services of lection of the house that these noble lords those who are distinguished by their talents being in the service of government, received or their experience, and the minister who only bare justice from the ministers of the would act otherwise would soon find that he day. It will be recollected that among the cold not long persevere in arrangements utfew instances of military glory which dis- terly repugnant both to the feelings of this tinguished the late war, the two noble lords, house and the country. It is hardly possitriumphing over difficulties of a very formi- ble to conceive ministers guilty of a greater dable nature, had eminently distinguished crime than refusing the services of persons themselves. On their return to this country of known talents, and to whose employment from the West Indies, some dissatisfaction the only existing o jeci n is some differarose, and an inquiry was proposed by some ences of political opinion. But the right members of this house. What was the con-hon. gent. has represented the defence of idact of these noble persons on that occasion? Did they fly from justice? Did they wish to elude inquiry, or did they discover any anxiety to conceal their conduct behind any mean or dishonourable subterfuge? On the contrary, did they not court inquiry? Did

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those noble persons as a work of great difficulty. It is of consequence to see, then, how the case really stands. Why, sir, as nearly as I can recollect, though I do not remember what was the majoy, only sixteen members, that is the odd numbers of the di

tions by some corresponding measures: Withd out some others it is almost a nullity to suf fer the resolutions of Monday to remain on the journals of the house. My hon. friend: has said, and has said with truth, that the no tification of the resignation of the noble lord by the right hon. gent. is far from satisfying either the house or the country. The res signation of the noble lord, at another pe riod, might have been very proper, but uns

try, his mere resignation of his situation as first lord of the admiralty is far from coming up to the spirit of those resolutions which will afford such general satisfaction in every part of the empire. Lord Melville's resig nation after the resolutions of Monday was altogether a matter of course. Neither he nor any other man dared to have continued in power after the opinion of this house was so solemnly and so beneficially expressed. The resignation has taken place; but what security have we obtained that he may not, in a very short time, be recalled to a very confidential situation under the crown? The house will bear in mind that the noble lord still continues a privy counsellor, and one part of my hon. friend's motion is, that he be dismissed, not only from his majesty's councils, but from his presence for ever. It

vision of Monday, could be found to support that charge now represented as so formidae. The case was one of the plainest and least intricate that can be supposed, and, therefore, the noble lord's defence was, in point of difficulty, trifling, and, in point of justice, the noble lords had a right to expect it from those who employed them. I have Been obliged to say so much on this topic, for, after what fell from the right hon. gent., it was quite impossible for me to have re-der the present circumstances of the coun mained silent. Indeed, the right hon. gent.'s allusion to this business was equally l judged and impolitic. It was calculated fo excite unpleasant feelings, without at all advancing that cause which he affected to support. The right hon. gent. has alluded to the warmth with which the noble lord has been attacked; but, really, I am at a loss to discover where the least evidence of it has been exhibited. I have felt no personal warmth or vindictive spirit on the subject, and I am sure no part of the conduct of my hon. friend has betrayed any appearance of a rancorous spirit. I have supported my hon. friend from a sense of duty, and I only regret that I have been prevented from faking that share in the discussion which I could have wished. The right hon. gent. talks of rancour, of which no trace has ap peared; but though there has been no ran-is not at the same time to be forgotten that cour, it was impossible not to feel strong in- the noble lord at this time is actually in posdignation when instances of strong delin- session of several lucrative offices held during quency were discovered. My hon. friend pleasure; and I do not think that, after the urged these delinquencies, with that force resolutions we have passed, his removal which was peculiar to himself; but he ne- from these would be at all carrying punish ver resorted to asperity of observation. He ment to an improper length. After the dewished only the ends of justice to be fulfil- clarations we have made, can we take any led; but when this object is accomplished, I precautions too strong to insure the object am sure that my hon. friend will never think which the majority of the house professed for a moment of vindictive measures of pu- to have in view? The right hon. gent, rests nishment. It is with a view to have these a great deal on delicacy, as an argument for ends of justice satisfied that the motion of resisting my hon. friend's motion. I, sir, my hon. friend has this evening been brought am a friend to delicacy, where it can be exerforward; but he has declared that if a satis-cised consistently with justice; but I can factory assurance is given that lord Melville never accede to a proposition for screening has closed his political life, he has no wish convicted guilt from adequate punishment, to press the motion at the present moment. by any scruples which false delicacy would This surely is no evidence of rancour, of impose. With a wish then that our resoluwhich the right hon. gent. speaks so loudly tious should not be evaded, but carried into In his speech. As to the necessity of the the fullest effect, I should certainly be desi motion I have no sort of hesitation in say-rous of seeing my hon. friend's motion ing, that unless something is added to the re-adopted, as at once the most consistent with solutions of Monday night, they are left in- our honour, most agreeable to the calls of complete. After saying that the noble lord justice, most consonant to the expectations had been guilty of a gross violation of an act of the country. I shall say only a few words of parliament, and a high breach of his du- on some other topics which the right hon. ty, we shall not discharge our city to the gent. has thought fit to introduce into this Country without following up such recla speech. The right hon. gent. has spoken of

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the arbitrary and despotic doctrines brought have brought forward those tyrannical, des forward by my hon. and learned relation be-potic, and oppressive doctrines which he sup hind me (Mr. George Ponsonby); but as poses me to have delivered. Of having my hon. and learned relation is himself so uttered any such language as could convey competent, it is not necessary for me to trou- the idea of arbitrary principles or practices, ble you with many observations. But II am utterly unconscious. I was followed may just be permitted to ask, whether there by a right hon. gent. who is unquestionably be any thing extraordinary or inconsistent one of the most sound and constitutional with justice, any thing inconsistent with the lawyers, and a judge in one of the highest character of a British lawyer, any thing at all courts in the kingdom, and it is rather retyrannical or despotic, in having a person markable that he took not the least notice of accused of a most aggravated crime secured these supposed arbitrary doctrines, though previous to his trial? Could this be called a he did me the honour to allude to several prejudging of the cause? As well might we parts of my speech. If such doctrines had be accused of prejudging a criminal, because been contained in what I then advanced, it we found it necessary to shut him up in a is next to impossible that they should have prison previous to the proofs of his guilt escaped the observation of his penetrating being fully or fairly considered. Here, and comprehensive mind. If I did lay however, we were talking of a person not down arbitrary doctrines, they are the same accused, but found guilty. I put it to the doctrines which many of the most eminent house, whether, after the circumstances of lawyers that this country ever saw have not Trotter's conduct were known, it was at all scrupled to avow, The right hon. gent. decent to employ him in a situation which however, tells me that if I were a British he had previously employed to the most im- lawyer, I could not possibly avow the prin proper purposes. If Trotter was not disciples he imputes to me. I am not ashamed missed, he ought surely to have been suspended from his office, till the inquiry in this house was closed. The right hon. gent. has advanced nothing to shew that it was not his duty to have followed this course. His whole speech, indeed, was nothing but idle rant and fury, containing nothing addressed to the reason of the house, nothing which affords the least proof that the motion of my hon, friend should not be adopted, as the natural consequence of the previous resolutions. Conceiving, then, this to be the case, I shall support the motion as called for by every principle of honour, every demand of justice, and every feeling of regard for our character.

Mr. George Ponsonby-Mr. Speaker; after being so pointedly and personally alluded to by the right hon. gent., I hope I shall be favoured with the attention of the house for a few moments. Since first I had the honour of a seat in this house, I will not attempt to deny that it has ever been my ardent wish to stand high in the esteem of all the members of whom it is composed. After the vote of Monday, however, a vote so honourable to the character of this assembly, a vote which has exalted its character among all orders in the state who value independence and worth, I confess, that to stand well in your opinion has become a matter of the utmost anxiety. The right hon. gent, has chosen to say, that if I had been a British lawyer I never could possibly

at any time, sir, or under any circumstances, of my country, and I hope I shall never be guilty of an action which will give my country cause to be ashamed of me. As, however, the right hon. gent. rests so much on my not being a British lawyer, I beg leave to inform him, that I have as good British blood flowing in my veins as the right hon. gent. can boast of in his. I cannot boast of having arrived at so early a period of life as the right hon. gent. at the honours and rewards which the right hon. gentleman now enjoys. What I have earned of ho nours and rewards have been the result of long labours and painful exertion; but this I can safely assure the house, that never till now have I been accused of being an arbitrary or unconstitutional lawyer. I said, sir, alluding to the case of Mr. Trotter, that cir cumstances had been disclosed which shew» ed that he ought not to have been employed in the office of paymaster of the navy, and I am still of the same opinion. But on what principle is it that the right hon. gent. accuses this declaration as inconsistent with the principles of justice? What are these principles? they are plainly, these:-that Mr. Trotter had, by his own evidence, proved his guilt and that the testimony of his friend and patron, lord Melville, instead weakening, strengthened this opinion. I ask, then, after such evidence was given before the commissioners, if it would have been at all extraordinary or unjust to have