1 1001. Long annuities .£5 0 0 due upon treasury bills, respecting which [48, and on farther representation, to 48. he expressed a wish to reserve all discus-This offer had been received by the lords sion till a future day. He had now to state of the treasury in Ireland, subject to his to the committee, that he had proposed to approbation. He would shew by the letter raise a loan of 1,800,000l. in Ireland. of the bidders themselves, that they did not Offers had been made there, which were not consider any engagement made with them. accepted offers were then made in this The letter stated, that they would abide country for the loan, which he had felt it by their offer, if they were indemnified for his duty to accept; and it was the contract any depression that may take place in the so made, that he had now the honour to stocks here before the return of the express submit to the committee. The terms of with his answer. This offer was made in the loan were, Dublin on Monday the 16th. The letter of Messrs. Bogle, French, Burrows, and Canning, was answered by him by an express, which arrived in Dublin on the Sunday fol lowing, stating, that their offer could not be accepted. There was not in their letter, nor in any one of the papers, one word that went to shew he was bound. The bidders merely said, they would abide by their offer if indemnified against possible depression. Now they complained, and said they had a right, merely because they were not allowed the 13 per cent. bonus they had carved out for themselves. He trusted this explanation would set his conduct in a fair light. 241. in the 5 per cents... .1 4. 0 100, 3 per cent. stock Sir J. Newport expressed himself extremely happy to hear the right hon. gent, give so truly satisfactory an account of this transaction. He had heard of the rumours that had been alluded to, but could not believe them, and it gave him the greatest pleasure to hear them so completely done away. He highly approved the loan having been made in England in preference to Ireland, because it could not fail to be eventually truly advantageous to that part of the empire. In a poor country like Ireland the great object should always be to bring capital into it. Here would, therefore, be nearly 2 millions of capital sent 7 7 7 thither, and that Irish capital, which, if He had already stated, that the annual taken as a loan, would be locked up for charge on the present loan was 61. 17s. 2d. that purpose, might now be much more so that there was an actual saving of 10s. beneficially employed by being vested in 5d. per cent. The difference also on the trade, in the promoting and encouraging capital of the debt created would be im- manufactures, in the improvement of agrimense. If the offers made in Ireland had culture, and in many other modes which been accepted, the subscribers would have that part of the kingdom is deficient in at had a bonus of no less than 13 per cent. present, and to render which most flourishand therefore it was not surprising, that ing and prosperous, capital is only wanted. where the advantage to them was so great, He allowed, there were some things atthey wished to have their offer consi- tending this mode of raising money by loans, dered as a contract. He would now ex-which he did not altogether approve, such plain to the house the whole of the trans- as being connected with a sinking fund, and action, as far as related to the offers made other inconveniences; but it was but fair in Ireland. The first offer made there was and right to consider every matter of this for 49, 5 per cents.; this being represented kind in all its bearings, and to put up with as unreasonably high, it was reduced to the bitters, for the sake of enjoying the sweets. Upon the whole, he thought the right hon. gent. had conducted the business in a manner highly creditable to himself, and very advantageously to the country, and it was with infinite satisfaction he gave his approbation to it. The resolutions were then read and agreed to; the house resumed, and the report ordered to be received on Monday.-Adjourned. HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, April 29. the interests of those persons affected by the bill, as far as the same could be done without trenching on those principles, and on that system, upon which the institutions were hitherto introduced. The important consideration of a due connection between the properties of the laity and the ecclesiastical establishments of the country, made also a part of the present subject. How far giving an unlimited power to the universities to acquire advowsons, would operate with respect to that consideration, [MINUTES.] The earl of Oxford was was matter for serious discussion. He resworn and took his seat.-Counsel were fur-peated, no practical inconvenience had hither heard relative to the Scotch Appeal, therto been proved to exist. He was Cathcart, bart. v. the earl of Cassilis, viz. against conferring an unlimited power on Mr. H. Erskine in continuation on the the universities, though, under what had part of the respondent.-The bills upon been stated, he had no objection to open the table were respectively forwarded. the door wider, and to extend the propor UNIVERSITIES ADVOWSON BILL.] The tion of the number of livings from one order of the day being read for their lord-half to three-fourths of the number of felships going into a committee on this bill, lows in the respective colleges. Nor did Lord Sidmouth rose for the purpose of he object to other regulations being made, opposing the proceeding. It was with pain upon the same principle, such as augmenthe differed, and on topics of such pecu-ing the value of the present livings, &c.; liar importance as those involved in the but he was hostile to all innovations, measure in question, from the reverend which did not proveably proceed upon and learned prelate who brought forward sure and certain grounds. A more liberal the bill. It was said, it would be a boon provision made for those meritorious perto the universities. No person could pos- sons, could, he thought, be obtained withsibly have a greater respect for these very out having recourse to a sweeping repeal useful, learned, and respectable bodies, of all limitation whatever. Adverting to the than himself; yet he conceived that the present state of church livings in general, bill before the house would operate rather and the duties of parochial ministers, his as a boon to individuals belonging to those lordship thought the augmentation of the corporations, than to the institutions them- value of small livings would be highly beselves. Great stress was laid upon the in-neficial, as well as the erection of more conveniences produced by the restrictions churches in the populous parts of the counwhich the bill was intended to remove, but try, and in great towns, in many parts of he believed no proof whatever was brought forward of any practical inconvenience having taken place. The restriction had continued for more than half a century. It was enacted at the instance of that profound lawyer and venerable magistrate, ford Hardwicke, who, no doubt, had thoroughly considered the subject before he proposed the restraining clause. In the former debate on the subject, it was also said, the succession to the livings was at present too slow for the beneficial purposes of the institution; but of this no proof was brought forward, and, as the case stood, he was entitled to contend, were the restriction removed, the succession would be too rapid. He was perfectly aware of the importance of the subject to which these conderations referred, and no one could be more willing to promote the comforts and VOL. IV. the metropolis, in particular. With respect to the subject of the bill in question, he contended their lordships had by no means sufficient information to proceed upon. He saw no immediate necessity for proceeding with the measure. Time, certainly, should be given for further enquiry. If, however, it should be the general sense of the house, that the bill shall speedily be committed, he hoped what he had suggested, in the way of detailed regulation, would be seriously considered by their lordships; such as, that the extent of the increased proportion of livings should not be suffered to exceed three-fourths, and the smaller livings augmented. Under his present views of the question, what he should propose was, that the bill should be postponed until next session, for the purposes he had mentioned. He would, 2 G He therefore, propose to amend the question ties. He had not the least apprehension on the score of too rapid a succession. And, convinced as he felt of the beneficial tendency of the measure, he should support the original motion. Lord Auckland, though he professed himself not unfriendly to the bill, yet was of opinion that their lordships had not sufficient information to go upon a practical inconvenience was a matter capable of proof; let that be brought forward, and the amount and respective value of the liv ings in the hands of the different colleges should also be known. The funds of the universities may also be matter of proper consideration, for it was important to know how far they had the means of providing, which they themselves held forth as a remedy for the alleged grievance: there was no evidence whatever on these heads before the house. The Bishop of Oxford shortly observed, he was in possession of some detailed information on those heads, did noble lords deem it necessary. ever, be desirable to go into a committee on the bill, as that detailed mode of discussion may at least give them an idea of the precise nature of the necessary infor mation. Lord Auckland resumed. He contended for the propriety of having an account of The Archbishop of Canterbury observed, the number and value of livings in the gift that he conceived the principal objections of the different colleges, as some of those it of the noble viscount to the bill, to be, might be desirable to augment. The state first, an apprehension, that, were the ex-of their respective funds should also be isting restraint removed, the succession to known. One general rule could not prothe university livings would be too rapid; perly be laid down for the whole. The and, secondly, that it would tend to de-means of some colleges for providing for prive the laity of too great a degree of its members may be more than sufficient; that portion of patronage, which he con- of others, they may be inadequate. It ceived to be at present so beneficially vest- was a subject on which they should not ed in them. With respect to the first ob-proceed to legislate blindly. It may, how jection, his grace observed, he conceived the state of the funds of the universities would operate as a sufficient check to any thing which might be feared, if too rapid. With respect to the present state of the patronage of ecclesiastical livings, he should Lord Grenville in some degree agreed be extremely sorry to see it taken away with the noble lord who spoke last, in from numbers of those who at present en-deeming that the house was not possessed joyed it, and who so beneficially dispensed of sufficient information: he thought it, it, particularly members of that noble however, better to proceed with the bill, house. But there was another description and endeavour to get the necessary infor of patronage, which, they must all feel, mation, than to postpone the measure to had a very different tendency. He alluded an indefinite period, without the least certo that, which was afloat in the market, tainty of procuring the necessary informa and every day bought and sold under cir- tion. It would be preferable to go into cumstances injurious to the establishment of the committee, to ascertain the precise pathe church, the interests of religion, and,ture of the information wanted, and adopt he believed, against the laws of the realm; measures to obtain it. The measure before the patronage of such persons might easily the house was, he contended, brought for be placed in better hands, and in none more ward on adequate parliamentary grounds. advantageously than those of the universi- The real merits of the bill, as it then stood, the legislature, and taken up at some future period, and also the consideration of the number of small and inadequate livings, and the impracticability of clerical residence in many of these. resolved into this question, did there now people, and what was the consequence? exist sufficient grounds for continuing the these persons either went to no church at restriction? With respect to the apprehen- all, or were constrained to frequent places sion of a rapid succession, he thought those of worship different from those of the persons who so worthily presided in the established religion. He trusted these different colleges would take care to pre-matters would be seriously considered by vent that; but he was inclined, upon the whole, to credit the assertion that the present succession to the college livings was too slow, and in considering this part of the subject, the peculiarly strong claims of those who were to be ameliorated by the The Bishop of St. Asaph contended, that bill, should be attended to. The question every thing that was advanced, were reaunder consideration was not of figures or sons for going into a committee on the bill; of numerical calculation, but of reason- they were in possession of adequate inforing, feeling, and presumption. With re-mation, in order to proceed with the bill; spect to that salutary and beneficial con- and the legislature, when it originally laid nection which subsisted between the pro- on the restriction, was not informed, as his perty of the laity, and the religious estab-noble friend opposite contended the house lishments of the country, did he perceive should have been, or the proportion of the the least tendency in the bill to militate numbers allotted would be very different; against the measure; but with a most re- he had no fears of too rapid a succession yerend prelate, he thought it would have ever taking place; the colleges had not the a contrary tendency. He had no fears on means of affording an opportunity for that; that head, for even did too great an ac-but, he observed, that the patronage of the cumulation of advowsons, or too rapid a universities was always honourably and besuccession ensue, the legislature night neficially exercised. hereafter interpose and check it, as it had already done. Many of the arguments of a noble viscount, he contended, operated for, instead of against going into a committee. The restriction, at present, he argued, operated unjustly, it referred merely to the number of the advowsons, without in the least considering their respective value. This part of an amelioration of the present system could but be considered in a committee, in favour of which proceeding, every thing advanced in argument, that night, decidedly tended. The Lord Chancellor agreed with a noble baron (Grenville), that the question before them was rather one of general reasoning, than proceeding upon particular informa, tion. The original restriction did not appear founded on the state of the respective colleges, or the proportion would be very different. In advancing this, he meant not the slightest reflection on the name of that great and venerable character who proposed it, whose name would be remembered as long as the law of England continued to be known. That his position was well Lord Sidmouth explained, that what he founded, would clearly appear on comparhad said was, that there was no proofing the allotted number of livings, viz. one brought forward of the succession being half of that of the fellows of colleges in the too slow. universities, with the actual number of perLord Auckland contended that where a sons in each college capable of being so begrievance was alleged, it should be estab-neficed. Some of these (referring, for exlished in proof; the case in the present instance was one of evidence and fact, an adequate proof ought to be given. ample, to that which he had the honour to belong) had the entire number of their fellows ecclesiastics, whereas others had not The Bishop of London argued in favour half their number clerical men. How, of the measure, and urged the consideration therefore, could the allotted proportion of of such a bill as the present in a committee, one moiety apply equally or justly to both? as particularly necessary. Adverting to He agreed with the observations of the the general state of parochial establish-rev. prelates, on the scandalous traffic for ments; he lamented there were so few pa- church preferments, the extent and tendenrish churches in the western parts of the cy of which did not seem to have been fulmetropolis. Most of the chapels of ease ly perceived by the illustrious author of the were private property, and afforded no ac- restriction, and which the noble and learncommodation, for the lower orders of the ed lord strongly reprobated as of the most pernicious tendency. He had no fears of straint in question.-The house then, after too rapid a succession, or that through the negativing the proposition of lord Sidoperation of the bill, the patronage of the mouth, resolved into a committee on the laity would be improperly trenched upon. bill, and lord Walsingham having taken Lord Ellenborough observed, as the ge- the chair, the preamble was postponed, neral sense of their lordships appeared to and the enacting clause entered into pro be for going into a committee, he should forma. It being settled between their lorddetain them very shortly. He was of opi-ships across the table that progress should nion that it would be expedient to set be reported, and leave asked to sit agaiu; some limitation to the acquisition of ad-which being done, the committee was divowsons in such cases as the present. The rected to sit again on Wednesday.—Adhouse should consider that the corporations journed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, April 29. [MINUTES.] Mr. Calcraft presented a in question were as trustees who purchased for their own benefit; that they were not only donors but donees; there obviously therefore existed reasons for some restraint, which did not exist in other corporations. He must join with the noble lords and re-petition from upwards of 1000 inhabitants verend prelates who reprobated that scan-of the parish of St. Pancras against the bill dalous traffic in church preferments so for- for the erection of a workhouse, and some cibly alluded to. He was fully aware how parochial regulations in that place. Or greatly preferable it would be to see such dered to lie on the table.-Mr. Williams, patronage vested in the universities; but from the commissioners of naval enquiry, even with reference to purchases, even from presented at the bar the correspondence these quarters, he conceived, considering with the treasurer of the navy, which was the possibility of abuse, that some degree ordered on a preceding day. The papers of restraint would even then be necessary. were ordered to be laid on the table, and They should endeavour to find some cer- on the motion of sir R. Buxton, it was tain ratio for apportioning the number of ordered that they should be printed.-Mr. livings to that of the fellows of the respec-Johnstone, from the office of the chief setive colleges, or rather of those who are cretary of Ireland, presented copies of the capable of being beneficed, and therefore contracts which had been entered into for some words should be introduced to express the purchase of houses or ground for the that provision in the bill, as "such per-scite of the Roman catholic seminary. Or. sons as are elected, or are capable of being elected." dered to be laid on the table.—Mr. Parnell presented statements of the public expenThe Bishop of Oxford in reply, observed, diture in the Irish chancellor of the exthat no fears need be entertained of too chequer's office, which were also ordered great an accumulation of patronage on the to be laid on the table.-Mr. H. Thornton part of the universities, even were that gave notice that, in consequence of the likely to take place, as parliament would resignation of sir Francis Burdett, he would, always have it in their power to check the to-morrow, move that the petition against vicious excess; nay, to check the evil in Mr. Mainwaring be discharged.-Mr. Creethe bud. He entered into some calcula-vy rose for the purpose of putting a questions as to the number of livings vested in different bodies. Of these, we understood the reverend prelate to say, that a less number than 700 were at the disposal of the universities, and many of these of small value, ont of an aggregate of upwards of ten thousand livings. tion to his majesty's ministers. Three weeks shall have elapsed to-morrow since the resignation of lord Melville, and yet no successor had been appointed. He wished to know who was to succeed to that important office, as under all the circumstances of the country, and considerThe Duke of Norfolk said, that if the ing the forward state of the enemy's fleets, bill were agreed to by the committee, with- it was extremely desirable that a person out some limitation or degree of restraint should be appointed, adequate to the urintroduced, he would certainly oppose it gency of the times, and arduous duties of in some future stage. He conceived that that. high office. The chancellor of the the same reasons continued to operate exchequer had no difficulty in answering which induced the legislature, in its wis-the hon. gentleman's question: the appointdom, in the year 1736, to provide the re-ment had taken place, and would be men |