or from the money of the navy. This his own emphatical expression, put his letter was written by lord St. Vincent, in hand in the fire, rather than he would have which he told sir A. Hamond that his consented to the issue of any naval money lordship was satisfied the service (that for that purpose. was, the secret, or stone expedition) would Mr. Wallace-I did not mean to say be properly performed. Here the hon. any thing in contradiction to what the baronet alluded to the letter of lord Ho-noble earl has thought fit to communicate bart, of the 7th of March 1804, and of earl to the hon. member as to what he would St. Vincent on the 9th, wherein his lord-have assented to; I am stating only what ship said, "It is thought advisable under appears on the face of the papers. the present circumstances of the war, that Mr. Grey. I say the papers completely an attempt should be made for the prose-prove that which my lord St. Vincent said cution of a project for choaking up the to me. harbour of Boulogne, the success of which Mr. Sullivan lamented that he had had the will depend on secrecy and dispatch. I misfortune not to be in the house when have the king's commands to inform you it this discussion had commenced, and that, is his majesty's pleasure that you take this therefore, he could but imperfectly reply to under your inmediate control, and com- all that had been said. But he was clear municate in confidence with Mr. - that the expedition was perfectly known to supplying him with such funds, and giving lord St. Vincent, and he thought it but him such orders for the purposes of pro-justice to all parties to say, that he was tecting the vessels, and supplying stones perfectly acquainted with the whole transand other materials, which may be judged action. Lord St. Vincent resided at that necessary to be embarked, as shall be re-time chiefly in the country, and, therefore, quisite for accomplishing the object in view. the communications with him were entireThe advance you may have occasion to ly by notes. His (Mr. Sullivan's) letter to make for this service shall be hereafter re-sir Andrew Snape Hamond was dated 9th paid from the treasury. The vessels will Feb. On the 10th, lord Hobart wrote to proceed to the Downs, and you will receive lord St. Vincent, that for security and exorders from lord Keith." Another letter pedition sir A. Hamond was to take on the following day from the noble earl to charge of the whole of the preparations, sir A. S. Hamond stated, "I received and to advance the funds which were to be your letter of yesterday inclosing instruc-afterwards replaced. Sir A. Hamond. tions from lord Hobart for an expedition proposed to raise the money by an issue on the naval service, and which I have no doubt will be well performed; but as the whole expence is to be defrayed by the treasury, I do not see any occasion for any part of the detail being transmitted to the Lavy board." of navy bills, which were to be paid off when the money for the expedition was issued from the treasury. The funds thus created were paid into Messrs. Hammersley's bank. He did believe in the beginning, that lord St. Vincent was acquaintMr. Wallace,-I beg to know whether Ied with the whole of this arrangement. have stated the direct contrary of the But he acceded to the declaration of partrue representation on these letters? Itial knowledge, because he was sure that have not done so, as far at least as my understanding goes. I say, it was stated originally in my lord Hobart's letter, that the funds were, in the first instance, to be supplied from the navy, but that they were ultimately to come from the treasury, and that my lord St., Vincent was aware of this. I should be glad to know what he has to say against that? the noble lord would not say that which, was not true. But till he knew that his lordship had declared himself so entirely igno rant of those particulars, he did believe that he was perfectly aware of them. He did believe the hon. gent. opposite, when he stated that lord St. Vincent declared he would have sooner put his hand in the fire than have countenanced this application Mr. Grey. My lord St. Vincent states, of the navy money. But certainly lord St. that the whole expenditure is to be defray- Vincent did not shew any such aversion to ed by the treasury. He protests against it at the time, he supposed from what had the application of any naval money for been said, because his lordship did not that purpose. I have my lord St. Vin-know it was to be done. cent's authority to state, that he would Mr. Vansittart thought he could throw bave quitted office altogether; or, to use some light on this transaction, by stating what he knew of it from his official situa-transaction which was purely naval, and tion at the time. Great difficulty arose which was approved of by the first lord of from the unwillingness of lord St. Vincent the admiralty, there was no objection on to apply the navy money to this expedi-the part of that noble lord to the plan gotion; and there being at that time no vote ing forward, provided the expence was of credit, the only resource that remained not defrayed out of the funds for the naval was, that the comptroller of the navy service. This was a new light, in which should provide the funds in the first in the transaction would not have been placedy stance, and that they should be replaced if this discussion had not been instituted; from the treasury as soon as the vote of what the effect of it was, he should not say, credit passed. He was glad his right hon. Mr. For was astonished to hear from friend, who was then treasurer of the navy, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) that the na had explained the matter in the manner he tural construction was, that lord St. Vin had done. He was sure lord St. Vincent cent meant to say he knew nothing of the was a marr of honour, but without that ex-stone expedition. Could any man suppose planation he should have found it difficult that was what his lordship, designed to reto reconcile the evidence with what he present? Was not the most indolent obknew of the facts, though he could not server in the kingdom informed of it suppose any improper design in lord St. Then, as to the money, true it was there was Vincent. At the same time, it was obvi- no attack upon the integrity of the noble ous, that the hon. baronet stood fully ac-lord. Whether lord St. Vincent, in the quitted by the documents on the table, so high situation he held, did wright or wrong, far as any charge may have been made in suffering the expedition to proceed, was against him of having acted in this busi-a question on which at present he was ness without being fully authorized. called upon to give no opinion, but as a The Chancellor of the Exchequer supposed pecuniary transaction it was perfectly obthe house must now be satisfied from thevious he would not suffer the funds of the reading of the papers, that there was no navy to be applied to it. The right hon. intention to take the house by surprise, nor gent. said the design was to stifle the into advance any other unfair object, and formation contained in the papers. Did that any surmise of that kind was abso-requiring them to be publicly read indicate lutely unfounded. Whatever construction any such indisposition? Then why talk of may now be put on the words of the evi- surmises, when those hon. members to dence, the obvious impression they were whom the surmises were attributed, could calculated to make was, contrary to the not have the most remote idea of their intention of the noble lord, he did sup-contents. With regard to the innocence pose, that sir A. Hamond had issued navy or culpability of sir A. Hamond, that money for services, of which the first was also a question foreign to the present lord of the admiralty knew nothing. This enquiry, and would, no doubt, be a subwas the impression they had made on his [ject of future discussion. If there existed hon. and learned friend (the attorney-ge-any feeling on the mind of a single indineral), till the matter had been explained. vidual in that house, which attached the He asked, under these circumstances, what would have been the counsequence if the enquiry had bsen stifled in the manner that had been proposed? What injury would not have been done to sir A. Hamond, if it had been only known that he had advanced the money to be replaced, but without the first lord of the admiralty hav- The Chancellor of the Exchequer was suring any acquaintance with the transaction prised to hear hon. gentlemen disavow that for which it was advanced? Now it ap- there was a design to stifle information peared that it was advanced for a service when a motion was proposed to expunge known and approved of by the first lord the order for the perusal of the papers. of the admiralty; that there was an ar- With regard to the assertion that what lord rangement that it should be advanced by St. Vincent said implied he knew nothing the comptroller of the navy, to be replaced of the transaction, in this he must perseby the treasury. It now appeared, and it vere. He did not say what his lordship's was a point much relied on, that in a intention was, but he (Mr. Pitt). would smallest suspicion to the character of the noble earl who had been so often named in this debate, he hoped the matter would be investigated with the utmost industry, and he (Mr. Fox) was fully convinced the enquiry would terminate in a way most honourable to his lordship. Sir Charles Pole said, the question was asked for the purpose of assisting his lordship's memory. The same general nega. tive being given, it was thought unneces sary to insert the question in the report. repeat, that the natural impression from The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought the papers was, that the noble earl knew it extraordinary that this explanatory quesnothing of the affair. But in order to re-tion and the answer to it were omitted in move any doubt on a matter that appeared the report. to him so plain, he would read the question and answer from the report :-Q.“ It appearing that 14001. was advanced by Messrs. Hammersley and Co. between the 18th of Feb. and the 21st of April, 1804, for a secret service, was the comptroller of Mr. Hobhouse said, that the question the navy authorised by you to perform a had been for so long a time quite out of secret service, or have you any knowledge sight, that, without consulting his recol of the transaction ?"—A. " He was not; lection, he should not have known what nor have I any knowledge of the transac was the immediate object of discussion. tion."-His lordship might mean that he He had witnessed a great deal of clamour was not officially apprized of it, but the and irritation, of crimination and recricommon impression would be, that he had mination, and of every thing, in short, no knowledge of the transaction regarding but argument. The motion before the that secret service. This was the conclu- house was, whether the papers which had sion he drew, and he believed most per-been presented by the worthy baronet sons had deduced on the perusal of the report. (sir A. S. Hamond), and read at the table by the clerk, should be printed for Mr. Grey said, the right hon. gent. had the use of the members? Had any objec been guilty of wilful misrepresentation- tion been offered to its adoption? What [a cry of order !]. The chancellor of the possible mischief could result from the exchequer rose with much warmth. The publication of these papers? He had heard speaker felt it his duty to inform the ho-none assigned; he could conceive none; nourable gentleman, that the expression he and therefore he should cordially assent had made use of was not justifiable. Mr. to the motion. With respect to the tes Grey said, he was sorry that any improper timony given by lord St. Vincent before expression should have escaped him in the the naval commissioners, and annexed to warmth of the moment. He contended the eleventh report, his (Mr. Hobhouse's) that there was no evidence of any disposi-impression upon reading it agreed with the tion to stifle enquiry; on the contrary, he statements of his right hon. friend below had expressly declared his desire that every document that could aid the defence of the hon. baronet, or any attack to be made on lord St. Vincent, should be produced, only wishing to regulate the manner in which such documents should be allowed to go forth. He contended, that the questions put to earl St. Vincent were only relative to the application of the money. him (Mr. Vansittart), and of his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Sullivan); both of whom, from the public situations they at that time filled, were well acquainted with the whole proceeding, and most cas pable of forming a correct judgment. The question put to his lordship was, "whether the comptroller of the navy was authorized by him to perform any secret serThe Chancellor of the Exchequer stated,vice, for which a certain sum was advan that what he had said, was, that there had been an attempt to stifle these papers, and he saiu so still. ced, and whether he had any knowledge What Sir Charles Pole was now called upon from all sides. Ile stated, that the object of the questions put to earl St. Vincent other inference could be deduced from related solely to the apparent irregularity this reply, except that his lordship did not in the application of the money. When know the secret service alluded to, and his lordship answered that he knew nothing had not authorized it? This from the of it, his lordship was then asked whether it might not have been applied to the stone expedition? He answered, it could not, because there was no authority for such an application, the money for the stone expedition being to come from the treasury. VOL. IV. letters which had now been read, was cert tainly not conformable to the fact. Itappeared, however, from the same documents, that his lordship looked to the treasury for the payment of the expence, and therefore he was not guilty of warrant 21 ing the application of naval money to se- | been aware that the money was to be adcret services. By the explanation now vanced by the comptroller of the navy, to given by lord St. Vincent's friends, it was be replaced by the treasury. clear, also, that to this point his lordship General Gascoyne, from what had been intended to direct his answer to the com- stated by the hon. baronet, who was at missioners. The evidence, thus construed, the head of the commission, thought it left not the least shadow of blame upon his clear that the commissioners conceived the lordship. He (Mr. Hobhouse) entertained noble lord's memory wanted assistance the highest opinion of lord St. Vincent's and direction. They knew his lordship integrity and honour; he admired his pro-well; and if they conceived his memory fessional talents, and completely approved was deficient, he could not imagine they his administration of the admiralty during the time that he presided at that board. Mr. Hobhouse concluded with repeating his wish, that a debate so totally irrelevant to the question under consideration, might no longer be protracted. Admiral Markham.-Lord St. Vincent certainly knew it; I knew it; sir Thomas Troubridge knew it. With regard to approving it, I never did. I can mention a circumstance which will shew lord St. Vincent's acquaintance with the affair. I remarked to his lordship at the time the business was carrying on, with so little secrecy it was conducted, that it was the common talk froin one end of the river to the other, that the comptroller of the navy was fitting out these stone ships. Lord St. Vincent replied to me, You and I have nothing at all to do with it, the treasury is to pay for it." Lord Dunlo thought it strange that the explanation given to lord St. Vincent's mind by a particular reference to the stone expedition, was not inserted in the report. If the question was put, why was it not in the minutes; if it was in the minutes, why was it not in the report? thought so without reason. He was the inore ready to admit the propriety of this proceeding, as he himself had been a member of a court martial on a very meritorious general officer, before which the noble lord had been a witness, and the noble lord's memory failed him so much that he forgot precise orders given by himself. He could therefore conceive very easily, why persons so well acquainted with his lordship as the commissioners, should have thought it right to assist his memory on the occasion now alluded to. The question was now put, and the papers were ordered to be printed. [NAVAL COMMISSIONERS' RENEWAL BILL.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the reading the act appointing the commissioners of naval enquiry, and the act being read accordingly, the right hon. gent. rose pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the further continuance of that act for a time to be limited. In a former part of the sessions, he observed, that it was his intention to bring forward this motion, if it should appear that the commission of naval enquiry should be unable in the course Sir C. Pole said, it was not put down, of the sessions to fully discharge the duty because it had been directed merely to assigned to them on their original appointassist lord St. Vincent's memory, and be- ment. This inability was now apparent, cause it had not produced any knowledge as several objects still remained for invesof the matter in his lordship's evidence. tigation which would necessarily occupy The Attorney-General said, the misap-much time. It therefore became proper prehension arose from the unhappy cir- to prolong their continuance. With recumstance that the witness did not under-spect to the conduct and character of this stand the question, which required some commission, he was as willing as any man explanation for the direction of his mind. to admit, that it had produced much useThe question was put down without expla- ful and important information. At the nation, and the answer was recorded with-same time, however, he would say, that out qualification. Thus the misapprehen- there were several parts of the conduct of sion was in the report, without that which had some tendency to correct it. Mr. Robert Ward contended, from the time, that lord St. Vincent must have been perfectly aware that the expedition was going forward, and that the letters shewed it. The noble lord must besides have this commission of which he could not approve, but still their investigation had been productive of many results that would conduce to the public service, and on this ground he felt it his duty to submit this motion. The motion being put, Mr Whitbread thought it extraordi quences. Now, it was his wish to invest the naval commissioners with a discretion of the same nature as that possessed by the judges-that they should have the power of compelling reluctant witnesses to auswer nary that the right hon. gent. should select ers of those commissioners from any apthe very time he was moving for leave to prehension that that power was likely to bring in a bill to prolong the existence of be abused; for against such an apprehenthe naval commission, in order to cast a sion the discreet and moderate manner in slur upon the conduct of that commis- which they had heretofore acted must afsion. Such a reflection from any man in ford sufficient security. According to the the house would excite surprise, but from act, as it now stands, every person had, it the right hon. gent. on such an occasion seems, a right to decline to answer any too, it must be peculiarly surprising. Not question which he chose to think might only that he was quite sure it was de-tend to criminate himself. This afforded cidedly opposite to the general opinion such a latitude as was calculated com.. of that house, and the universally received pletely to defeat all enquiry, and he would sentiment of the country, that those com- appeal to the learned gent. on the other missioners were in any part of their con- side (the attorney general), whether any duct deserving of censure. So far from it, man would be permitted in a court of law that there could be no doubt that the pu- to decline answering a question merely blic feeling was warmly in their favour, upon his own conception that the answer too much so indeed to afford any thing might tend to criminate him. The prac like a gracious reception to the right hon. tice, on the contrary, was, he apprehended, gent.'s remarks. Those commissioners, that if a man declined, upon such an alin his judgment, and he believed there legation, to give an answer, the court was were very few who really differed from him, competent to say, that it did not appear had discharged their duty with peculiar likely the answer would produce such an moderation and justice. If the right hon. effect, and that therefore the witness must gent. thought that they had in any in- answer. If, however, the answer should stance deviated from that duty, or made tend to criminate the witness, the common an improper exercise of the power intrust-law would protect him against the conseed to them, it was incumbent on him to have stated it, and not to have dealt in lcose insinuation. Persuaded of the merits of this commission, and that where the results of its enquiry were in any case imperfect, that imperfection did not proceed from any want of diligence or capacity on their part, but from a deficiency in the powers with which they were invested, he should move an amendment, the object of which would be to remove that deficiency. The first point upon which he The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed would propose to extend the power of the upon the allusions which the hon. gent. cominissioners, would be to compel pub- had made to what he thought proper to lic officers to furnish them with accounts call a slur thrown out by him upon the or documents in such form as they might conduct of the naval commissioners. Surely think proper to specify. Thus, no trea- the hon. gent, could not suppose that besurer of the navy, or other public officer, cause he felt it his duty to bring forward or deputy, would be permitted to thwart this motion, that he was therefore divested or delay the proceedings of this meritori- of the liberty of speech, or that he was to ous commission. The next amendment be held out to the odium of that house or he would submit would go to repeal or the country, because he had thought pronew-model the 5th clause, which appear-per to animadvert upon the conduct of the ed to have been so improperly made use naval commissioners. He certainly did of to prevent the full disclosure of pub- think that those commissioners had in cer lic delinquency, and to protect delinquents. tain instances executed their powers in a These effects, which were notorious, and very unbecoming manner. But still he which occasioned general regret, must im- was ready to say that their services were press the mind of every man who was really productive of public utility, and in couseanxious for the success of this enquiry,quence of that opinion he brought forward with a strong conviction of the necessity the motion before the house. With regard for this amendment. No objection could to the new provisions recommended be be made to a further extension of the pow-the hon. gent., he did not conceive that suchwitnesses should be protected by this act, not against the answer, but against the consequences of such answer. With this view the hon. gent. moved an amendment to the motion-that the word "amend" should be inserted after the word continued. |