his intention of deferring his motion respecting the reduction of the militia till Thursday next.

be printed.-Sir J. Anderson presented a petition from several printers in the metropolis, stating, that the journeymen had refused to work without an increase of wages; [MR. FORDYCE'S DEBT.-Mr. Creevey that their demands were exorbitant, and a rose, and spoke as follows: Sir, in pursucompliance with them would be destructive ance of the notice I gave some time since, I of the trade; and therefore praying, as the shall now submit a motion to this house reonly means of counteracting the evil, that specting Mr. Fordyce; a gentleman who, by they might be allowed to take a greater various documents of parliament, appears number of apprentices, and for shorter pe- indebted to the public in a very large sum riods, than they were at present allowed by of money, and of a very long standing; and law. Ordered to lie on the table.-The who likewise appears by a commission lateSugar Drawbacks bill was read a 3d time.-ly issued by the crown, and a copy of which The report of the Exchequer Bills bill was now lies upon your table, to be one of five agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a commissioners appointed for the purpose of 3d time. The report of the Irish Spirits carrying into execution most important reWarehousing bill was agreed to.-A copy forms in the department of the navy, which of the commission, appointing John duke of have been suggested by the parliamentary Athol governor of the Isle of Man, was pre-commissioners appointed by this house to sented. Lord J. Thynne's Indemnity bill examine into those subjects. The first obwas read a second time, committed, and ordered to be engrossed.-The Irish Sugar Drawbacks bill went through a committee, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. Fox stated, that he should, on Monday next, present a petition to the house from the Roman Catholics of Ireland. It was not, he said, necessary for him to give this notice, but he thought it respectful | Mr. Fordyce's debt to the public, as I collect to the house to suggest his intention.

[IRISH EXCISE DUTIES BILL.-Upon the order of the day being moved for the

house to resolve itself into a committee on the Irish Excise Duties bill,

ject I have in view is an inquiry into the circumstances of Mr. Fordyce's debt; into the engagement he has entered into for the discharge of it; into the security the public have for its final payment; and into the causes that have hitherto delayed its liquidation; and, with reference to these points, I will shortly state to the house the history of

it from the different documents of parliament. The house knows, that by an act of parliament passed in the year 1780, certain commissioners were appointed for the purpose of examining the public accounts of Sir John Newport said, he hoped the right poses of reform. In the first report of those the kingdom, and for other salutary purhon. gent. who had given notice of his in-commissioners, and which was likewise made tention to bring forward a plan for the re-in 1780, I perceive that Mr. Fordyce was duction of the militia, would allow the Irish found to be indebted to the public, at that Tax bills to be postponed. It was of im-time, in the sum of 61,000l. and upwards, portance they should undergo some discus- as receiver general of the land-tax of Scotsion; hitherto they had undergone none. land. An examination of that gentleman They had been brought in on Saturday, not upon oath, taken before the commissioners, usually a day of business, and read a second as to the means of liquidating that debt, aptime on Monday, on a national festival. pears in the appendix to that report; and However the national Saint might protect Mr. Fordyce there refers to the most posithe country from venomous animals, it was tive and precise stipulations, as having been plain he had no power of protecting against entered into by him with the lords of the tax bills. Acts of parliament might as well treasury, for the accomplishing that object. be passed by acclamation, as with a degree of He states, that he had agreed to pay off precipitation which precluded discussion. 30,000l. before the then next Lady-day; He had expressed his intention of opposing 10,000l. before the 10th of the next month one or two of the tax bills, but had hitherto after; and that as to the remaining 24,000l. had no opportunity. owing to particular circumstances, Mr. Fordyce states, he had obtained the indulgence from the lords of the treasury to pay that sum by instalments of 5000l. per annum. This, sir, was in the year 1780. The next mention I find of Mr. Fordyce is in the 8th

The Speaker, observed, that on a day for which any hon. member had given notice of a motion, it was usual to waive the other orders.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed

It

report of the finance committee in 1797; the controul of the lords of the treasury and that committee, the house likewise knows, the lord advocate of Scotland; for, during was appointed for the purpose of examining that period of two and twenty years, they abuses in the expenditure of public money; have not produced one farthing to the puband it certainly does appear a most extraor- lic. The only sum paid since the finance dinary circumstance, that, after the report committee's report, notwithstanding all the of the commissioners in 1780, that I have new engagements on behalf of Mr. Fordyce, before mentioned, after all the engagements and all the numerous securities he refers to, on the part of Mr. Fordyce I have before has been a sum of 8,2501. and this sum I referred to, and after a period of 17 years to find was given to Mr. Fordyce by parlia fulfil those engagements in, it does, I say, ment, out of the public money, for surveyappear a most extraordinary thing, that Mr. ing woods in Scotland; and being in the exFordyce's balance to the public should make chequer, could not with much decency be the prominent feature of complaint it does paid out of it, to a person so much its debtor in that report of the committee of finance. as Mr. Fordyce. This sum was paid by appears from that report, that although Mr. Fordyce, or rather retained by the treaMr. Fordyce was so much in arrear in 1780, sury in Feb. 1800; and during the 5 years he was nevertheless continued in his office that have since elapsed, no other payments of receiver general until 1783; and when, whatever have been made. These last instead of his former engagements being ful- facts, respecting Mr. Fordyce's debt since filled, and his former balance reduced, his 1797, I collect from the annual return of the debt at that time to the public amounted to balances of public defaulters, which is now upwards of 90,000l. At this period, in laid before parliament, in pursuance of the 1783, it appears he was dismissed; and the act of 1800, for which the public, sir, are report proceeds to state, that from that pe- indebted to you. This, sir, then, is the parriod (in 1783) to the then present time, (in liamentary history of Mr. Fordyce's debt to 1797) the whole of that arrear of 90,000l. the public: he now owes to them upwards with the exception of 7001. only paid in of 80,000l.; he has owed it two and twenty July 1797, had remained a debt due from years; the money came out of the pockets Mr. Fordyce to the public, for which no in- of the people for their taxes; a sum more terest whatever had been received. I find, than equal to the principal has been lost in sir, from the appendix to that report, that the way of interest for this sum; no engageMr. Fordyce upon this occasion, as upon ment of this gentleman for the liquidation of the former one, appeared again before the this debt seems to have been performed; no committee, and again referred them to new steps appear to have been taken by the lords engagements entered into by him with the of the treasury to accelerate the liquidation lords of the treasury, for the payment of at of this debt, although it has been so strongleast 4,000l. annually, and to a variety of se-ly pressed upon their attention by the comcurities, that were to produce the speedy liquidation of this debt; and I particularly beg to call the attention of the house to one statement made in the appendix to that report. It is stated, that in 1783 Mr. Fordyce's property was all assigned to trustees for the lords of the treasury as a security for the debt, but that it had at the same time been agreed, that Mr. Fordyce should retain the possession and management of his estate, subject to the direction and controul of the lords of the treasury, and lord advocate of Scotland. This, no doubt, sir, was meant as a beneficial arrangement for the public; that the skill and management of Mr. Fordyce might make his property more productive than it would be in the hands of the trustees; the experience, however, sir, of two and twenty years, must very much diminish, if not entirely extinguish, all our reliance upon the skill of Mr. Fordyce, and VOL. IV.

missioners' report in 1780, and that of the finance committee in 1797, and although they are said to be in possession of so many and such valuable securities. I am sure, sir, the house must agree with me, that this statement of facts calls for a committee of this house to examine what these securities are that have been so long unproductive; what this property of Mr. Fordyce's is, that, after two and twenty years trial, neither his own skill, nor the controul of the lords of the treasury, and the lord advocate of Scotland, can convert into any thing for the public. It cannot be said, I apprehend, that this gentleman is destitute of means to liquidate his debt to the public; if I am rightly informed, sir, he is in possession of a large estate in Scotland, that it made his qualifi cation to sit in the present parliament for Berwick, that it enabled him to succeed in a very hard-fought contest for that borough, E

and that he finally lost his seat in this house making these observations, unpleasant as only from having been proved to have been they are: the ministers have forced Mr. too lavish of his money. Can it be said, Fordyce upon the criticism of the public, after this, that Mr. Fordyce's estates yield and they must answer to him for the conse no rent? or, if they do, why have not the quences; if, after two and twenty years forlords of the treasury, in their discretion and bearance, they still think themselves justicontroul, prevented this public money from fied in withholding the process of the being thus squandered on a Berwick elec- crown against Mr. Fordyce for the reco tion? Sir, I hope I should be as backward very of their public debt, they are at least as any gentleman in this house to press for bound in duty and decency to the pubany thing like persecution; I am willing to lic, not to exhibit Mr. Fordyce in any cha admit, as I did on a former occasion, that, racter of discretion or controul connected from all I have heard, I believe it to be true with the public revenue of the country. I that there was much misfortune in this gen- am sure, sir, this is a sentiment universally tleman's case originally; I am ready to ad- felt by the public; and, what is more, it was mit, that it would be ungenerous to urge the a sentiment recognized and acted upon by public to withhold all reasonable indulgence the chancellor of the exchequer, who disin cases of allowed misfortune; but there missed Mr. Fordyce from his office. The must naturally be a limit to such indulgence, chancellor of the exchequer I allude to was there must be a decency in the use of it; lord J. Cavendish; and that noble person and, above all, there must be an impartiality himself seems to have believed, that there in the distribution of it to persons similarly had been much misfortune in Mr. Fordyce's situated. There are many unfortunate case, so much so, that he was induced to debtors to the public besides Mr. Fordyce; promise him some indulgence as to time, many who, as securities for their principals and some place of profit, instead of the one only, are harrassed without pity by all the he had deprived him of. But observe, sir, figorous process of the crown. It is just there was a condition annexed to this proand right that the laws of the country should mise, namely, that the place to be given was be equally and impartially administered; and, to be in no way connected with the reveof course, it is not right that Mr. Fordyce nue:-this, sir, was the just and generous and his property should make the exception sentiment of that noble person of humanity they do to the ordinary application of the to the individual, and of respect to the feellaw. Besides, sir, as I have said before, we ing and to the interest of the public: if that are never to forget that the money Mr. For- noble person thought, two and twenty years dyce owes to the public came out of the pock- ago, when Mr. Fordyce's debt was recently els of the people for their taxes, that through contracted, that the employment of him, in him or his agents it has hitherto been lost, and any way connected with the revenue, was that it is not very gracious to the people of Eng an act of disrespect and injustice to the publand, whilst we are taxing the very sources lic, what would he have thought to have of their existence, to be granting this exclu- seen Mr. Fordyce now under all the aggrasive compassion to Mr. Fordyce. Sir, it is vated circumstances of the duration of his not only the estate I have mentioned that debt, and the forfeiture of his engagements, Mr. Fordyce possesses as a means to satisfy enjoying a place of similar responsibility in his debt, the public knows that this gentle- the revenue to the one he was deprived of? mman enjoys a very lucrative office under the What would he have thought to have seen crown, and that he has long done so; they this gentleman selected as the person who know, sir, that the revenue, which has al- was to frame and introduce a system of reready lost so much by him, has been further form and economy into the expenditure of burdened, for the purpose of building him a the public money in the department of the house of great magnificence, nominally, in- navy? What could he have thought if he deed, an office, but in fact a private resi-had heard the chancellor of the exchequer of dence, and built at great expence; and the present day pronounce Mr. Fordyce the knowing as they do these facts, and feeling fittest person that could be found to fill this as they do the increasing pressure of an al-office of reformer. There is another reason most overbearing taxation, it is insulting the people of England to call upon them for any extraordinary sympathy in the case of Mr. Fordyce. As I said, sir, upon a former occasion, I can take no blame to myself for

for the house agreeing to the committee I shall finally move for, and which I had omitted to mention: whatever doubts may have been formerly entertained as to public accountants being chargeable with interest

there can be none now since the act of 1800, I was given by the late chancellor of the exfor which the public is likewise indebted to chequer to this house, that he would move you, sir; under this act, there is now 20,000l. specific resolutions founded upon these vaadded to Mr. Fordyce's debt, making the rious reports; no such proceeding has, howsum total 100,000l. and upwards, though I ever, taken place, nor is it likely now it observe by the last return this interest is should do so; for it is impossible for this not added to the principal.—This is all that house to conceal from itself that the preappears to me at present necessary to be sent administration is hostile to that parlia said upon the subject of Mr. Fordyce's debt; mentary commission; many of the gentleand I feel certain it will be sufficient to in- men I see opposite to me resisted, with all duce the house to accede to the committee their power, the act creating the commis. I shall finally move for. When I mention- sion; the admiralty who brought it in are ed to the house my intention of bringing the perpetual subject of their censures, and this subject forward, I gave notice at the particularly for their economy. We have same time of my intention to submit like-seen with what reluctance this parliamenwise a resolution to the house respecting tary commission is to be permitted to exist the impropriety of Mr. Fordyce's appoint as long as parliament intended it to do, and ment as one of the commissioners in the then, what is worse than all, we see that new naval commission issued by the crown; the reform of all the abuses that the parliaa sentiment that I have by no means aban-mentary commissioners have discovered is doned, but which at present I shall forbear not to be left to this house, is not to be from expressing in the form I had intend- followed up by resolutions of parliament, or ed; if, however, sir, this house has any wish by positive laws, but the whole is entrusted to appear in earnest with the public upon to commissioners appointed by the crown; the subject of reform and economy in the that is to say, by ministers themselves; and expenditure of the public money, it will do over which commissioners, parliament has well to direct its most anxious and particular no controul. If parliament give this favouattention to this new naval commission, be- rite subject of the public out of its own cause, under all the circumstances of the hands, the reform of abuses, the economy case, it is impossible that any thing can be of the public money in the department of more full of suspicion and alarm. We are the navy, we might have been indulged, I all agreed, or at least we all profess to be think, with a reformer of more promise agreed, that the commissioners appointed than Mr. Fordyce. We know very well, under the act of this house to examine into sir, the resolution, the courage, the unimpublic abuses in the department of the navy, peachable character that are necessary to have been eminently successful in detecting make a man a successful reformer, that can and exposing the greatest frauds upon the enable him to contend against that implacarevenue. An honourable admiral in this ble host of interested jobbers that for ever house, and who was one of the late board swarm about the public money; and can it of admiralty, and who of course has had all be said that Mr. Fordyce, whose very exthe means of official information, has assert-istence is at the mercy of the crown, whose ed, without being contradicted, that if the character as a public defaulter is at the exposures made by the parliamentary com- mercy of every man whose abuses he is to missioners were to be followed up by cor- correct, can Mr. Fordyce thus situated, be responding reforms, a third of the pub- that faithful and rigid servant of the public, lic money spent in the extensive depart- which his office of reformer so peculiarly ment of the navy, might be saved. In times calls upon him to be? Having said thus like the present, it is impossible that a dis-much of the late naval commission, and of covery of greater importance could be the suspicious light in which I view it,.I made; but what security have we, sir, for shall nevertheless afford Mr. Fordyce an the adoption of such reform? After two opportunity of doing his duty to the public, years and a half of such labours as, I believe, and I shall not at this present moment subnever parliamentary commissioners bestow-mit the resolution I originally intended; I ed before, after nine volumes of such minute and detailed enquiries as were never made by commissioners before, the only object secured to the public is an alteration made by law in the management of Chatham chest. Sir, I understood that a pledge

beg, however, to give this notice to the house, that if my suspicions shall be too unfortunately realized, if we shall not shortly hear of the labours of these new commissioners, I shall think it my duty again to call the attention of the house to this sub

This

ject, and endeavour to induce it to resume [reform as had ever been effected in any deinto its own hands this most important ob-partment. The revenues of crown lands, ject of reform; and I shall now, sir, content which then had been reduced to 6000l. had myself with moving for a committee of this by his management been raised since to house, for the purpose of obtaining infor- 40,000l. which would increase in the premation respecting Mr. Fordyce's debt, sent year, and in the course of a few years which under all the circumstances of the amount to some hundred thousands. enormity of that debt, the time it has been he stated to shew, that Mr. F. was not a owing, the apathy of the lords of the trea-person unworthy to be trusted, and that his sury in the recovery of it, and the violation of all Mr. Fordyce's engagements as to the liquidation of it, the house, I apprehend, will have no hesitation in agreeing to. The hon. gentleman then moved, "that a committee be appointed to examine what sum was now due from John Fordyce, esq. to the public in respect of a sum of 82,000l. and upwards, reported to be due from him by the finance committee in 1797; together with an account of what steps had been taken by the lords of the treasury for the recovery of the same; and also an account of all securities given by the said John Fordyce, or on his behalf, to the lords of the treasury for the payment of the said debt; also an account of all engagements entered into by the said John Fordyce with the lords of the treasury for the payment of the said debt, and of such of them as had been performed; together with an account of all the rent, produce, and profits of the estates and property of any kind whatsoever be longing to the said John Fordyce, and which had been by him conveyed to the lords of the treasury in 1783, as a security for his debt from that period to the present time."

being in arrear had arisen from misfortune only, as well as that the public had enjoyed the benefit of his talents and services. His misfortune had arisen from the failure in three successive instances of his agents, one of whom had not been of his selection, but recommended by the late lord Rockingham, as collector-general, and therefore, in fair ness, he ought not to be accountable for the 14,000l. which now remained unsatisfied of his default. Another failure had arisen from the bankruptcy of a house in which Mr. Fordyce had vested certain sums of money, arising from the sale of forfeited estates in Scotland, which under the act of 1770, he was made the medium for conveying to the treasury. By this failure, which happened a short time before he was removed from his office, though it did not add considerably to his official arrears, he lost a sum of 40,000l. Under these circumstances, when addressing so enlightened an assembly, and as the origin of this transaction was historical, he trusted that the question would be considered without any view to party object, though the hon. gent. in the latter part of his speech, had appeared to give it that complexion. He had a right to consider the The Chancellor of the Exchequer wished case of Mr. Fordyce as a case of hardship. to call the attention of the house to the na. He had been left large sums in debt by the ture of this transaction. The hon. member failure of agents, and from that hour no bahad changed the object which he had first lances had been in hand upon which interest set out with, and he understood him to con- could accrue. He had been treated with sider the situation of Mr. Fordyce as arising forbearance, and that forbearance had been out of misfortune. But he could state that continued to him, first, because his default it had not been the opinion of the actual had arisen from misfortune; and, secondly, government that had removed him from of because rigorous measures would have fice that he was unworthy to be trusted, ruined him, and thereby have prevented the though they had declined employing him in public from receiving those payments, which a situation connected with the revenue. he should presently state. The hon. memHe held no such situation at present. He ber had represented the arrear of Mr. F. had held a very laborious office in a com- as 90,000l. It had been more, but was mission to inquire concerning the lands of soon reduced to that sum. Before 1797, the crown, appointed at the instance of that 2,000l.. had been paid out of his separate house; his name had been subscribed to property, and since 8,000l. There were reports made to the house on that subject, 87,000l. due on bond within the present and parliamentary measures had been groun- year, 11,000l. before the 25th of this ed on such reports. He then held an exe-month, the remainder in July, except 4000l. cutive office for carrying these measures into in Dec. He had besides, by his talents, effect, and had produced as-great a practical genius, and industry, which had been of ad