.

there were grounds for their adoption. J of his hon. friend, gentlemen would consiThey were at all events of such a nature der that the adoption of it would not go to as to require much deliberation, and there-bind the house to any subsidiary amendfore he should oppose their introduction ments that might be hereafter submitted. into the original frame of the bill. If, He merely proposed that as an amendment however, they should appear upon future was obviously necessary in this act, that consideration to be necessary, it would be the original title of the bill should correcompetent to the hon. gent. to propose spond with the desired object. If the ameudthem in a future stage, when there would ments recommended by his hon. friend be a better opportunity for discussing them, were calculated to entrench on the great than on the present occasion; namely, in and fundamental principles of common law, the shape of a motion for an instruction he would not, from any degree of regard or to the committee to receive such clause.gratitude to the commissioners of naval Into the merits of these amendments he enquiry, and no man respected them more would for the present decline to enter at than he did, be induced to assent to their any length. But as to the last point re-adoption. He wished not that any man specting the 5th clause of the act as it stood, should be bound to criminate himself; but, he would say, that it would appear to him in any act which had for its object to coma breach of common equity, and a most pel public officers to account for their coudangerous innovation upon the old conduct of the public money, he was very unstitutional practice, to oblige a man to willing that a clause should exist, calculacriminate himself. It was such a proposi-ted to shelter any public officer from rention as he trusted the house would feel to dering such account, if he chose to decline be at least deserving of too much serious it. At least, any officer who should avail consideration, at once to give a sort of himself of such a clause, and thus explicit opinion by the adoption of the honourable ly declare an apprehension of the discovery gentleman's motion that such an amend-of his guilt, ought not to be allowed, for ment was necessary.

one moment afterwards, to retain his office. Mr. For entirely concurred with his The case was different with respect to pri hon. friend in thinking the insinuation vate individuals. But, when the public thrown out against the naval commissioners thought proper to appoint a commission to by the right hon. gent. who had just sat enquire into the conduct of its stewards or down, a most extraordinary circumstance agents, was it 'to be borne that any one indeed, particularly when the time at which of such servants should refuse to answer the right hon. gent. expressed his disappro- the questions of such a commission; but, bation was taken into view. If the ground still more, was it tolerable that after such of this disapprobation was of a serious and refusal he should remain in office? If a important nature, it was highly inconsistent public officer were innocent, why should he in him to bring forward the motion before wish to be silent, and, if he were guilty, the house. For if the commissioners were why should the legislature protect him in deserving of such censure, how could the his silence? He did not mean of course right hon. gent. reconcile it with a just that any officer should be forced to furnish sense of public duty, to propose the con- grounds of prosecution against himself, but tinuance of their power? But if, on the that, if he persisted in that conduct which contrary, the grounds of the right hou.clearly implied a consciousness of delin. gent.'s disapprobation were of a trifling or quency, he should be dismissed from office. comparatively unimportant nature, how Gentlemen often appeared to forget the strange was the opportunity chosen for de-nature of these commissions. They were claring it! There was something peculiarly remarkable in the conduct of the right hon. gent. respecting this commission. At such a time, what could he mean by alluding to trivial errors-

in fact, to be considered as the represen tatives of the public, examining the conduct of public servants. If a master were to appoint any person to enquire into the affairs of his family, and a servant were to Just hint a fault and hesitate dislike, refuse to answer such questions as might Anxious to wound, and yet afraid to strike. be put to him, from a fear of criminating Those two lines appeared to be quite ap-himself, would such a servant be perpropriate to express the disposition of the mitted to retain his place? Certainly not. right hon. gent., they seemed to be made Why, then, should a treasurer of the navy, for him. With respect to the proposition or his clerk, or any other public servant,

however high, be allowed to remain in of-proper stage for going into detail or disfice after refusing to answer to the agent of cussion upon the nature of such amendtheir master for the manner in which they ments as might be necessary, yet he agreed had managed his concerns, particularly with his hon. friend, that some amendwhen their refusal betrayed a sense of ments for the purpose of enlarging the guilt? Whether public officers should be powers of the board of naval enquiry were compellable to answer such commissions necessary, from the embarrassing impedior not, it ought, surely, in common sense ments those commissioners had already exand equity, be understood that a refusal to perienced in the course of their proceedanswer should be immediately followed by ings. The right hon. gent.'s leading obdismissal. If that were understood, then jections were directed against the suggesthe refusal of the 5th clause would not be tions of his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread), so essentially necessary, although still a for enabling the board to enforce answers provision to meet such a case as that of to such interrogatories as they should deem Mark Sprott would be called for. That necessary, from the witnesses brought beperson declined to answer, on the ground fore them, without having the objects of that he was not, being no public officer, their enquiry defeated by pretences that compellable to answer questions under the those persons were not bound to answer act. So he was advised by the lawyers interrogatories, tending to their own criwhom he consulted. Perhaps those law.mination. Ilis hon. friend never meant, yers were right, but whether or not, it he was confident, to expose any man to was proper to extend and explain the the severity of criminal proceedings, in conpowers of the commissioners so as to leave sequence of any testimony extorted from no room for doubt or cavil, and to enable him by the authority of the commissioners; them fully to execute the purpose of their and the law of the land would protect him appointment. The hon. member repeated, in such a case. The house, certainly, in that it was desirable to be understood that appointing the board of commissioners for such a commission as that under consider- the purpose of naval enquiry, did not suration was not to be viewed by public offi- render any of its own privileges; neither cers as a hostile court of enquiry, but as a did he conceive the house to have warrantrepresentative of the public, to which they ed any individual to direct his censures are as much obliged to account, as any ser- against the conduct of those commissiovants are to the enquiry of their masters. ners which it had so highly approved: and before the right hon. gent, proceeded to di

The Attorney-General opposed the amendment. If it were adopted, he would put itrect such heavy censures against that board, to the consideration of the house how the it was incuinbent upon him to have pointed bill was to be framed agreeable to its title, out those parts of their conduct which unless there was a private communication called for his reprobation. He had himbetween the hon. gent. and his right hon. self given notice of an intention to move friend before the bill should be drawn up, for the thanks of that house to the comand that the objections existing in the mind missioners of naval enquiry, for that conof his right hon. friend against those duct which had already excited the uniamendments should be removed. If the versal gratitude of the country without objections prevailing against those amend doors; and when he should have the homents, which objections he himself felt nour of bringing that motion forward in strongly, should not be done away by fu-a day or two, he should hope, if not for ture discussion, the house, if the amend-the concurrence of the right hon. gent., at ment now proposed were acceded to, might least for some explanation of those parts be placed in the dilemma of having prefixed of the conduct of the commissioners, which a title to a bill, with which the bill itself may he had taken so untimely and unqualified prove to be inconsistent. It was manifest an occasion to censure. The commissioto him that it would be much better toners of enquiry had complained that their postpone the adoption of a title to the bill, which would imply an alteration of the existing act, until that change itself should be determined on.

Mr. Sheridan supported the amendment, and observed, that although he agreed with the right hon. gent, that this was not the

powers were defective, inasmuch as they had no power to enforce the answers to which his hon. friend alluded; and the right hon. gent. was all alarm, lest public officers should be placed in the liability of criminating their conduct, by telling the truth. It did not appear however, from

the existing state of things, that self-cri- | decided friend to enquiries of this kind, mination was much the order of the day. ever since he had the honour of a seat in But he would beg leave to ask the right parliament-[a laugh]. Gentlemen might hon. gent. if he was always so much alive laugh if they pleased, but he would boldto constitutional feelings on this point?ly look them in the face, and say, without or whether he had forgotten the bill intro- fear of refutation, that there was not duced by himself into that house in 1785, amongst them one who was more disposed for the express purpose of enquiring into than he had ever been to the strictest ecoabuses which had obtained in the fees of the nomy in every brauch of the public expublic offices of government, by which penditure. He well remembered the bill bill, the commissioners appointed under alluded to, and how warmly it was opposed, it were invested with such powers as com- as well by an hon. member unfortunately pletely stripped all persons brought before no more, as by the last and preceding hon. them of those rights now so warmly and members who spoke, but who were this pertinaciously contended for by the right night such strenuous advocates for oppohon. gent. Did the right hon. gent, on site principles. It was felt on that occathat occasion plead Magna Charta in sup- sion, that it would be necessary to examine port of his arguments, when he gave the many public officers long in the habit of most decided resistance to the admission taking large sums of the public money, and of a clause moved by him (Mr. Sheridan), who would never be induced to answer infor the protection of persons aginst the ex- terrogatories, if not compelled to it. It tortion of answers tending to their own was then objected from the other side of crimination? Did the right hon. gent. for- the house, that it was unconstitutional to get that the identical Mr. Trotter, of whose force men to answers that would criminate rights he was now so jealous, was, under themselves, and expose them to prosecuthe former bill, compelled to answer in-tions, and that a particular clause was neterrogatories similar to those which he had cessary to guard against such consequences; refused answering to the commissioners of but the introduction of such a clause was naval enquiry? which circumstance is al-resisted by his right hon. friend, upon the luded to in the appendix to the tenth re-ground that the law of the land gave amport. So far, however, from agreeing with ple protection in such cases, and rendered the unqualified censures thrown by the such a clause wholly needless. right hon. gent. upon the commissioners of naval enquiry, he thought the house was bound to them by every sentiment of the most unlimited gratitude; and when he should have the honour of calling for the expression of that gratitude, by a motion of thanks, he should frame his motion, so as either to make it impossible for the right hon. gent, to dissent from him, or compel bim to shew some reasonable cause for his dissent. He agreed with the right hon. and learned gent. that there was no very great likelihood of frequent or confidential in- The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in tercourse between his hon. friend (Mr.answer to what had fallen from Mr. SheriWhitbread), and the right hon. gent. who dan, respecting his bill of 1785, said, if hon. introduced the original motion. If, how-gentlemen would take the trouble of reever, the right hon. gent. wished to have any suggestion as to the amendments which were deemed necessary in the bill, as by courtesy of the house he had the nomination of the committee to prepare and bring it in, perhaps he would act wisely in nominating on that committee his hon. friend, and some of those near him.

Mr. Bankes supported the amendment, because it was obvious, from the complaints of the naval commissioners, that their powers were defective, and their enquiries, therefore, in many instances, inefficient; but this defect might not arise from any imperfection in the act itself, or in its construction by the commissioners. If, upon due investigation in the proper stage of discussing the bill, an amendment should appear necessary, he should sup port it.

ferring to the bill itself, they would find it contained no one of the obnoxious or unconstitutional principles which the hon. member had thought fit to impute to it. The question was then put on Mr. Whitbread's amendment, and negatived without a division; and the original motion for leave to bring in the bill was carried.. Mr. Rose perfectly coincided with the [MILITARY COMMISSIONERS' BILE:] motives of his right hon. friend, in oppos-The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose for the ing the amendment; though he had been a purpose of moving, that leave be given to

bring in a bill appointing commissioners to |

Mr. J. Fitzgerald desired to be informed; whether or not it was to be understood that a distinct commission was to superintend the military department of Ireland ?

Mr. Pitt said, he had not yet made up his mind on that part of the subject.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer could examine into the public expenditure of the give no positive answer. He was not sure departments therein mentioned, and to re-whether the same commission would serve port such observations as might enable the for both countries or not. Ireland might, legislature to correct and prevent irregula-perhaps, require a distinct commission. rities at present existing in such departments, and to adopt a better mode of conducting them for the future. He said, that as he had stated on a former night the objects of his motion, it would not now be The Chancellor of the Exchequer enternecessary to explain them very minutely. tained some doubts if the same committee They would chiefly comprehend the great could undertake the management of both brauches of the military administration: Great Britain and Ireland; local knowthe offices of barracks and ordnance, the ledge might, perhaps, be necessary; but on commissariat and the quarter-master-gene- this subject he had not made up his inind, ral's departments. There were several Sir John Newport pressed for a more other objects to which he wished this com- explicit answer to the question of his hon. mission to extend. By a bill passed some friend. years ago, the inspection of the public accounts was taken from the auditors of inprest, and vested in a commission; however Mr. For, notwithstanding the plausible well that commission had fulfilled its duty, professions under which the right hon. yet, from the length of the war, and the gent. brought forward this bill, had no great increase of public business, it was im- hesitation in declaring his decided opinion, possible to avoid large arrears, an evil that any bill of this sort brought into par which could not be avoided, unless by ap- liament, for the specious purpose of inpointing a fresh commission to assist investigating abuses in the public expendi bringing up the accounts. This was one ture, by persons who were themselves the object; another was to examine into the friends and colleagues of delinquents, gave expenditure of the public money in the him no hopes whatever that such enquiries West Indies, to take measures for recover-were serious. That such persons should ing what was due, and for preventing the be the institutors of enquiry, and the norecurrence of abuses in future, all which minators of the committees by whom such was now before the board of treasury. enquiries were to be carried on, was a Having thus briefly stated the outlines of circumstance which the house must regard his plan, the right hon. gent. expressed his at least with considerable suspicion. With readiness to listen to any suggestions that respect to the personal delicacy of any might be made to him for the purpose of man, acting under such circumstances as rendering the operations, of it more effec- those in which the right hon. gent. stood, tual. The result of such a commission that was certainly his own consideration must be, that the public would have the but if he (Mr. Fox) was the person closes satisfaction of being assured, either that no ly connected with delinquents, he should abuses existed in these departments, or if feel himself bound, by considerations of they unfortunately did exist, that measures personal delicacy, to take special care would be taken to correct them. not to be the man to bring forward such an enquiry, and to name the committee for carrying it on, conscious as he must be of the sentiments such a circumstance must produce in the opinions of all think

Mr. J. Fitzgerald enquired whether the operation of the bill was meant to extend to Ireland?.

-The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that would be a subject of future discus-ing men. The motion for the bill to in sion.

Mr. Ellison asked if the war-office was to be included?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer answered in the affirmative.

TOSir John Newport wished to know, whether or not the commissariat of Ireland was to be subject to investigation by this commission, as well as that of Great Britain?

stitute the committee of naval enquiry, on a former occasion, was brought forward by an hon. admiral, who every man must perceive, from the course of that enquiry, and the results it had produced, was serious in his intentions for the detection of delin quents. But he begged to ask, if that bill had been introduced by lord Melville, did any man believe that the house would have had before it Reports, such as those already

of the world? As to observations on the intended regulations of the bill, it would be more proper to defer them till the bill was actually before the house itself.

Mr. For explained, by saying, he had not imputed to the right hon. gent. any such direct influence as to say he could

only meant that there was generally a sort of courtesy observable in the house, on most occasions, to indulge the inclinations of the right hon. gent.

made by the naval commissioners? He the longest political life ever enjoyed by would not now pretend to dive into the any prime minister of this country, markfeelings and motives of the right hon. gent. ;ed him out as the very individual by whom but for his own character's sake he would the country would most wish such a comprofess that had he been similarly circum-mittee to be nominated. He called on stanced with regard to the persons detect- the house to repel with indignation any ed of delinquency, he would not have imputation on their honour, let it come ventured to come forward for the purpose from what quarter it might. Would they of naming the committee who were to endure to be told, that they were willing follow up the investigation; and if ever to subject themselves to the authority of there was a question upon which the house any individual, however pure his cha should be least diposed to compliment racter, however high he might stand in the right hon. gent. with the privilege of their estimation, from the experience of nominating a committee, the present was many years during a period as critical and undoubtedly that occasion. He approv-important as ever occurred in the annals ed, however, of what the right hon. gent. said of the objects of this bill. It was much; but there was still a necessity for much more. The navy and the army were undoubtedly two great branches of public expenditure, in which great abuses had unquestionably occurred, but there were still others that as loudly challenged en-dictate the choice of a committee. He quiry. Did the right hon. gent. think that enquiry was not full as necessary in the expenditure of the treasury, so much more immediately connected with himself? and upon the same principle, if he were to Mr. Grey admired the dignified zeal with bring enquiry forward and name the com- which the noble lord asserted the indivi mittee, he might as well nominate the lords dual purity of his right hon. friend; and of the treasury at once to investigate and yet he begged leave to remind the noble censure their own delinquencies, if they lord, that more flagrant corruption had were guilty. But that those persons whose prevailed in the country during the period conduct was the object of enquiry should that right hon. gent. had been at the head be permitted to nominate the enquirers, of the government, than during any other was contrary to every principle of common period in our history. He (Mr. Grey) well justice, common decency, and common recollected, that the noble lord himself had sense. But let not the right hon. gent. taken fire in a similar manner, when his "lay this flattering unction to his soul," own individual purity was called in questhat after what had passed in that house, tion by a right hon. gent. who was now after the enormities that had already been one of his colleagues (Mr. Foster). The dragged to light, the public would be satis- noble lord indignantly repelled the insinua fied with the appointment of a commissi-tion of corruption brought against his own ou by himself, to enquire into those bran-government, and concluded by an highches of the public service with which he him- fraught panegyric on the spotless purity self was immediately connected. If he enter- of the Irish house of commons! His right tained this hope, he was convinced that he hon. friend, however, answered, "the nowould find himself very seriously mistaken.ble lord mistakes me-I have urged no Lard Castlereagh rose, with much insinuation; but I directly charge, that there warmth, to vindicate the conduct of his was a gross and corrupt profusion of the right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), whose individual purity not only placed him far above the unwarrantable imputation of the hon. gent., but justly attached to him the esteem and confidence of the country. The personal purity of his right hon. friend rendered his character such as any country might be proud of, and the spotless integrity he had maintained during perhaps

public money perverted to procure votes in the Irish parliament in favour of the union; and I charge the noble lord, then at the head of administration in Ireland, with being the proposer, chief manager, and principal instrument in carrying that measure." The noble lord, however, sat silent, and did not think proper to ven ture on a reply.The hon. gent. concluded