presentation. I lament I must again of this measure; that indeed the governdiffer from the noble baron; I have ment made them no promises, but that some knowledge of that conntry, and, from all of us who supported the union, led every information I have been able to obtain, them to entertain such hopes. I acknowI decidedly assert, that the catholics were ledge that I did say to my catholic friends, not anxious to agitate the subject now; that that they would have a better chance of they did not think the time opportune, or success hereafter from an imperial than that they were now likely to obtain their from an Irish parliament; that an Irish. objects. If my information is accurate, I parliament could never grant with safety believe it will be found that all the eager what the united parliament might hereness to agitate the subject was on this side of after bestow. But I certainly held out to the water, and that the catholics were them no expectation of an early attaingoaded on by representations from hence to ment of their wishes. I am not, my lords, bring forward their petition. I do not ac- one of those who think that in no time, cuse the noble lord of being the person that under no change of circumstances, this spurred on the catholics. I know his public measure ought to be granted; that the spirit and character too well to suspect, for settlement of 1793 should be our ne plus an instant, that he would lend his great and ultra, that here we ought to make out distinguished name to so mischievous a stand. I profess not to understand what measure. He knows that country too well, a ne plus ultra in politics means. Sure I from his former high station, to hazard am that no such principle is countenanced such a measure at this moment. I have in the practice of our constitutions; its not, however, the same good opinion of principle is to change as circumstances and others: I do believe that there are men times demand alteration. I trust and hope so desperate as to value at nought a gene- that a time may arrive when distrusts and ral convulsion, if they can worry a minister animosities may die away, when the two by bringing forward a subject, in the parties may meet half way, and when rediscussion of which they conceive he may ligious distinctions may no longer disturb be embarrassed by former declarations. the state.-Eut, says the noble lord, grant Why is our country to be made the arcna the prayer of this petition and you will at on which contending parties are to wage once do away all pretext for disturbance, wor against each other? Oh my unfor- and you will at once become an united and tunate country! are you never to be at a happy people. I have the misfortune rest? I conjure the agitators of this mea-again to differ from the noble lord. I do sure to reflect ere it be too late: stir not solemnly declare, that I do not think a fire that is smothered, but not extin-that, by granting the prayer of this petition guished; the slightest spark may kindle to its fullest extent, you will advance one into a blaze. Is it not sufficient that, in single step towards the tranquillisation of the short space of nine years, my poor Ireland. His lordship will not, I am sure, country has been racked by conspiracies, contend that it is necessary to bribe the disgraced by every crime contained in the catholic noblemen and gentlemen into loyroll of human wickedness, affrighted byalty, and as to the common people, I am invasions, and shaken to the very centre persuaded it would not gain over a single by civil and religious distractions? Is it peasant now tainted with disloyalty, and not enough that we have sacrificed our ready, at a moment, to join a French invapride as an independent nation, and our der. No, my lords, seats in parliament importance and influence as individuals, to and admission to the highest offices in procure, if possible, for our distracted the state form no part of the wishes of fand, the blessings of peace and security? the Irish peasantry; were you to talk to We embraced an union to protect us from them on the subject, they would not underourselves; make not what we considered stand you. If you wish to conciliate those and hoped would prove a measure of now inclined to join the French, I will tell safety, make it not, I say, a measure of you what you must do, you are the best mischief and disquiet.-But the noble baron judges whether you are willing to pay so says, that the union is no union without high a price for their allegiance. Are you this measure; that without it we shall ready to sacrifice the national church by break faith with the catholics, who were giving up the means by which it is subinduced to support the union by the ex-sisted? Are you ready to sink your pectations held out to them of the success revenue, by giving up all taxes upon spi,

rituous liquors and, last of all, are you made use of the pretext of the catholic ready to sacrifice the whole protestant and religion, and of fanatical priests, as the respectable catholic property of the country, best fire-brands to throw among the people by the abolition of rents, and the perpetual to rouse them to rebellion; that their grant of their farms, to the present occu- objects were the establishment of a republic pants? Such are the terms, I know, have independent of Great-Britain, and conbeen lately offered to the Irish peasantry nected with, but not dependant upon by French emissaries, and if you mean France. A great proportion of the people to bid against them with any chance of in three of the provinces being catholics, of success, you must not be outdone in the course the rebel ranks were filled with men magnificence of your offers.-But the noble of that persuasion.-The noble lord is baron says, refuse the request of the peti-wrong in stating, that where the rebel tioners, and you give a handle to the armies were strongest, it was in counties disaffected to work on the passions of altogether catholic. The county of Wexthe multitude. I agree with the noble ford possessed great numbers of protestants, baron, it will do so; and this, my lords, yet it was there the rebel troops were is the great objection to the stirring the in the greatest force; it was there the present subject. If granted, it will not greatest enormities were committed; it obtain your object, namely, the tranquil-was there I witnessed catholic priests bearing lity of Ireland; if refused, it may and pro- in their hands the sacred banner of the bably will do much mischief. The bringing cross, the emblem of the mildest of reliforward the petition can do no good; it gions; it was there I saw them lead the may do much harm. What is the reason infuriated rabble to pillage, to destruction of bringing forward the petition at this of property, and to the murder of the aged, moment? Why did not the noble lord the infirm, women, children, in short, bring it forward in 1801? I give him cre- what was most distinguished, what was dit for not doing so; the country was in lowest in the community. I will not shock danger; it was no time to agitate a question your lordships' ears by the disgusting reci that might create divisions and animosities. tal. But the noble lord says it arose out Why, if essential to the well-being of the of the unhappy circumstances of the state, was it not brought forward during country. I profess I do not understand the interval of peace? Will it be answered what the noble lord means; but if he that the public opinion was then against wishes to convey the idea that the rebellion it? Has that opinion since changed?, I was produced by any oppression of the firmly believe it still remains unaltered.-people, I must beg leave, with great respect The noble lord says, the rebellion of 1798 to him, positively to deny it.-But the was not a catholic rebellion, and therefore noble baron says, that the influence of no impediment to the concession demanded. | the pope over the priesthood can be no I have not heard any one state that rebellion objection; he asks, do we think the pope to have been a catholic rebellion; many is more hostile to us now than in those of its leaders were protestants, or professed times in which we were at war with the to be so. The present general of division Bourbon family? I certainly do not think he in the service of his imperial and royal is. On the contrary, he cannot but wish well majesty the emperor of France and king to any nation that opposes Gallic tyranny. of Italy, was ordained a deacon of the But I think, nay I am certain, that the established church of Ireland by the father pope is the miserable puppet of the usurper of the individual who has now the honour of the throne of the Bourbons, that he to address you. Others, like Emmett, dare not move but by Napoleon's command; were professed protestants, but were real and, should he order him to influence the disciples of the modern French school both Irish priests to rouse their Hocks to rebellion, in religion and in politics. I had the honour he could not refuse to obey the despot. Í to be one of the secret committee of ground this opinion upon his holiness the house of lords of Ireland, before which being forced to anoint the usurper of the those gentlemen made their confessions of throne of the eldest sons of the church, treason. When asked, whether the esta- from whose family she had derived most blishment of the catholic religion was of her possessions. I ground this opinion one of their principal objects, they smiled upon the unfortunate old man being obliged and said, that such an idea never once to call upon the very respectable French entered into their heads; that they certainly bishops in this country, who had left all

the army. They are only excluded from the commissions of commanders in chief and generals on the staff. His lordship, however, now says that I am mistaken; that when they come into this part of the united kingdom, they are liable to penalties for serving. I beg leave to differ from his lordship. By the law passed previous to the union, they are allowed to enter into the army, and by the union all acts not then repealed are confirmed and sanctioned. But the noble lord says, that four millions of people neither can, nor will, nor ought, to submit to such restrictions. I entreat the noble lord to pause before he gives the weight of his authority to such an opinion. What, that because

for conscience sake, to forget the solemn suffer hardships from being excluded from oaths they had sworn to the princes of the Bourbon race, and to take others to support tyranny and usurpation.-But the noble baron says, that if you admit catholics to seats in parliament, their numbers in both houses must ever be so small, that no danger can possibly occur to our present establishments: I agree with the noble lord, that as long as there is a protestant king on the throne, there is little danger that any danger can accrue from their numbers in this house; but I positively assert, that, in the other house, it is possible that their numbers might be considerable. The present representation of Ireland is almost altogether sent to parliament by popular elections. Since the right of voting has been granted to catholics, the manufacture of freeholders they are numerous they ought to resist has thriven so rapidly, that there is now scarcely a peasant who does not swear himself possessed of a forty shilling freehold. The numbers of the catholics has been allowed by all sides. It will be conceded to me, I am persuaded, that the catholics have hitherto acted in a body: why have they done so? Because they had common objects. The same causes will probably produce the same effects: if catholics get admission to seats in parliament, it is possible that, in some time hereafter, they may wish to obtain some great catholic object. What is to prevent their leaders from pressing upon the lower orders the necessity of electing catholics only, and, if they succeed to a considerable degree, it is natural to suppose that, having a common object, they will act together in parliament? I will suppose a case that certainly does not exist at present; I will suppose that, at some distant day, a struggle of parties may take place, that the parties may be pretty nearly balanced; what if then the catholic representation, acting in a mass, should offer their assistance to that party which should favour their views? Ministers may wish to cling to their situations; opposition per fas aut nefas to obtain them. I am apprehensive, as long as human nature remains unchanged, that the resistance to their wishes would not be very strong. The noble baron (lord Holland) says, that for want of catholic sheriffs, catholics do not in many instances enjoy the benefits of the trial by jury. I never heard that juries failed in doing their duty, without distinction of party, except when they have been deterred by the terrors of assassination. That noble lord says they

the law? I am sure on reflection his lordship will not adhere to such an opinion— I had nearly forgotten a principal point I had intended to press on your lordship's attention. Both sides of the house, in considering this question, seem to me to have forgotten that the catholics are not the only body to be consulted on this occasion. Are the feelings of the Irish protestants wholly to be left out of consideration? I believe they are almost entirely adverse to the concession. Respect, I entreat you, the feelings of that body, ever true to their religion, faithful to their king, and enthusiastically attached to British connexion, Descended from yourselves, in fighting valiantly their own battles, they have served your interests, and have prevented by their exertions that fair and beautiful island from being torn from the British empire. In seeking new friends, whom possibly you may fail to conciliate, neglect not your old ones, but remain firm to those who have in the worst of times remained firm to you.-I beg pardon for having so long detained your lordships, and for having, from excessive fatigue, laid my thoughts before you in a manner less connected than I wished to have done. I shall oppose the motion for going into a committee on the petition.

Lord Carysfort considered the question of immense magnitude and importance. He had a great deal to submit to their lordships upon it, but thought the hour too late for that purpose, and therefore suggested the propriety of an adjournment.

The Marquis of Buckingham was in the same predicament as the noble lord who had just spoken, having also much to say to

their lordships if there was a seasonable opportunity for that purpose. Lord Grenville submitted to the house the propriety of not proceeding further the pre-day to be liberated. The sum of your of sent evening.

on whom the ballot had fallen, according to the lists put in the glasses.

A committee was appointed to examine | juncture, they are engaged. He understood, if these motions were agreed to, the friends of earl St. Vincent would move for other papers, which would still embarrass the public business. He was desirous to be informed, if, at any crisis like the present, the lords of the admiralty could peruse the voluminous accounts moved for by the hon. member, without material injury to the public service in the present state of the country? He was of opinion, that the preparing the accounts would be attended with manifest inconvenience, and would answer no good purpose whatever.

[STATE OF THE NAVY.] Mr. Jeffery said, he rose in pursuance of the notice he had given, to have the honour of submitting to the house a motion for the production of several accounts relating to the naval department of the country, during the administration of earl St. Vincent. Having read the motions on a former night to the house, and being of opinion that some time should be taken to deliberate on their contents, he now rose to submit his motions to the con

sideration of parliament. He was persuaded when the accounts were laid upon the table, and perused by the members, that he would be borne out in the view which he had taken of the subject, and the intention for which the accounts were brought forward. He would not trouble the house with any further observations until he heard whether his motions were opposed, or met with the approbation of the house. He therefore should move, "That there be laid before the house an account, shewing the number of line-of-battle ships and frigates built between the 1st January, 1783, and 31st December, 1792, distinguishing the number of ships launched from the merchants' yards, from those launched from the king's yards."

Mr. Jeffery considered the observations of the hon. baronet premature, as he could not know whether the accounts would lead to enquiry or not. He would not contend, if any thing criminal occurred in the administration of lord St. Vincent, it should be passed over, and that an enquiry into his conduct ought not to be instituted. He declared, on his honour, that he did not act through party motives, he was an unconnected individual, not belonging to any man or set of men; his conduct arose from his feelings for the situation of the country, and his knowledge where the faults were imputable, with respect to the administration of earl St. Vincent. The reduced state of the navy he attributed to the noble lord, and if enquiry was to be dispensed with the The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he present session, he knew the difficulty of had no objection to the motion now offered; obtaining enquiry hereafter. He knew he but as those which were to follow were very had undertaken an herculean task in the voluminous, he wished to have it understood, first instance, but he had cogent, ample, that he must oppose the production of any and sufficient reasons for bringing the mea papers tending to shew the state and con- sure before the house. He trusted that no dition of the ships in 1804, as it might af-member would object to his motions, that ford improper information to the enemy. parliament might decide whether enquiry He should also object to the production of was or was not necessary. He moreover any correspondence explaining the state of British and foreign timber, as it might disclose the foreign resources of the navy, and thereby perhaps enable the enemy to embarrass them.

Sir John Sinclair entertained great doubts with respect to the propriety of bringing forward the long list of motions which the hon. gent. stated on a former night, as they embraced almost every branch of the naval service of the country. He submitted if, at this late period of the session, it were adviscable; and he would be glad to know from any gentleman conversant with the official business of the board of admiralty, if these accounts could be prepared without distracting its attention from the other important concerns, in which, at this con

trusted that no gentleman would be against the production of the papers, until they knew what they contained. They were neither as voluminous nor as intricate as some members might imagine; and be pledged himself that they could be produced in a week or ten days, without giving any extraordinary trouble to the lords of the admiralty in perusing their contents. He thought then absolutely necessary to be produced, as he would take upon him to prove, that lord St. Vincent had disgraced the British navy, and was the greatest enemy to the country and the navy of Great-Britain that the country ever knew.

Mr. Tierney said, he was far from opposing the motion now before the house, especially as the hon. gent. had put it out of his power