tion, thanked the hon, baronet for the pains | produced no advantage, but great loss to he had taken to examine into the subject in public. The restriction of cash payments question. There was a necessity for the had caused an excessive issue of paper, asylums. He went once to the gaol of which enabled the Bank Directors to give a Clonmell, to enquire respecting this sub- bonus of 5 per cent. last year, making the ject; from the bellowing and hideous noise total dividend on their stock 12 per cent. He of the lunatics there, the ordinary sick were should ask the right hon. chancellor of the prevented from taking their natural rest. exchequer under what possible circumAfter a short conversation, in explanation of stances he could renew the payments in the mode of raising the funds for the Asy- specie? As the restriction had now existed lums, between Mr. Rose, Sir J. Newport, during a period of peace and of war, as the Mr. Corry, and Mr. Foster, leave was given effect of it was an excessive issue of paper, to bring in the bill. and a consequent depreciation of it, and as by the measures pursued by the Irish treasury, a loss of 40,000l. had fallen on the public in every million, and as amidst this desolation of the finances of Ireland, the only stock that thrived was Bank Stock, he should therefore move his resolution, "That it appeared to the house that a considerable part of the sums raised in G. Britain for Ireland, for the service of the year 1904, had been transmitted to Ireland by Bank of England Post Bills; and that said bills had been sold in Dublin by the commissioners of the treasury, by public advertisement, at rates inferior to those at which they had been before sold."-The other resolutions expressed disapprobation of the conduct of the Irish treasury in so doing. On the question being put on the first resolution,

[IRISH LOAN AND EXCHANGE.]-Lord A. Hamilton, pursuant to notice, rose to submit his motion on this subject to the house. In bringing forward the resolution which he should have the honour to propose, he was not actuated by any sentiment of hostility to the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Foster.) When he had first called the attention of the house to this subject, he had stated, that the excessive issue of paper had arisen from the restriction of issues of specie from the Bank, and had produced the consequent depreciation. The object of his motion was, a disapprobation of the measures that had been taken by the commissioners of the treasury in order to remedy the high rate of exchange. Their measures were of a partial and temporary nature, answering no one purpose proposed, and Mr. Foster observed, that whatever comleaving the exchange in precisely the same plexion the noble lord might put on his restate. The noble lord here read from the solutions, they amounted to a direct charge papers on the table the different rates of ex- on the commissioners of the treasury in Irechange at which the Irish treasury had of land. He had confounded the question of fered at different times their drafts upon this exchange with the conduct of the treasury. country, from 11 per cent. to 8 1-34 at The right hon. gent. begged to state the napar; and contended, that by giving their ture of the transaction. A large loan had drafts at par, whilst the actual exchange was been negociated in England for the service 13 or at least 12 per cent. they negociated of Ireland, and he had applied in Nov. to the transmission of the loan at the loss to the Directors of the Bank in Ireland, to the public of 40,000l. on every million, and bring over the money, which they had rehe should ask whether this was fair, legal, fused, lest it should injure their character. and regular? An expectation was entertain- for impartiality, as some of them were coned in Dublin that the measures of the trea-cerned in the business of exchange. The sury would reduce the exchange to par; commissioners were obliged to order it over and, consequently, the whole of the sums in Bank of England Post Bills, which they advertised had not been purchased whilst sold in Dublin. They first advertised a the rate was above par; but, when the ac- sum of 200,000l. at 11 per cent. but only commodation had been offered at par, 170,000l. were subscribed. The next sum though the sum wanted did not exceed they advertised was of the same amount at 150,000l. the sum of 500,000l. was sub- 10 per cent. and only 170,000l. was obscribed; and such was the eagerness and tained. They then found themselves under avidity to procure a share of it, that a kind a necessity of disposing of the bill at par, of riot had taken place amongst the bidders which was 8 1-3d, in order to procure the at the castle, which required the military to sums required for the public service. But suppress. The house, he trusted, would put during the whole of this period, the actual an end to this practice in future, as it had state of exchage fluctuated between 8 and

10 or. 11, to which it had in one or two instances, risen for a short time. The noble lord could not therefore make out that any loss had been sustained by the public by this transaction. The question of exchange was not regularly before the house, but he would be indulged with an observation upon it. The state of exchange depended on the general balance of pecuniary transactions between two countries, and in this respect it was favourable to Ireland so large a sum of money having been transmitted. The restriction of the issues of specie was the primary cause of all the unfavourable state of the currency and exchange, unknown before, but whose interest it was to keep it high. Another cause was the over issue of paper. In the months of May, June, and July, the Bank of Ireland diminished its is-exchange, even if the operation of the Irish sue from three to two millions and a half, and the exchange fell. In August they increased it again to 3 millions, and the exchange rose. The same consequence had happened in 1753, from the breaking of the Bank, and in the reign of King William, from the base coin. Where guineas were paid, the exchange was at 5 per cent, being 3 below par. The right hon. gent, contended no ground had been made out for the motion, and therefore to get rid of it, moved the order of the day.

the bills and re-sold them at a profit. He should therefore vote for the proposition of his noble friend.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer maintained that the conduct of the Irish treasury had been correct, as it was the duty of the commissioners to provide the money for the public occasions. It was a perversion of terms to infer that the depreciation of paper had any real effect on the exchange. He allowed that the excessive issue of paper produced a depreciation. The fact was, that in each country there was a different circulating medium, and the depreciation of either could have only a nominal effect on the course of exchange. The remittance of so large a sum as four millions and a half, would have had the effect of lowering the

treasury had not taken place. The ground of the noble lord's charge of a loss to the public, appeared to rest on a supposition, that the rate of actual exchange would have continued the whole time at 13 per cent.; but was it to be supposed the Irish treasury could have procured purchasers at 13 per cent. when they had failed at 114? for these reasons he thought that no ground had been laid for the noble lord's motion,

Mr. For was glad to hear the right. hon. gent. allowing that an excessive issue caused Lord Henry Petty agreed in the whole a depreciation, and that the house was never doctrine laid down by the right hon. gent. again to hear the fantastical opinion that as to the causes of the unfavourable state of paper was not depreciated, but the value of the exchange for Ireland. He agreed also gold raised, as well as that these evils prothat the question was a direct charge ceeded exclusively from the restriction on upon the treasury of Ireland. But he dis- the Bank. As long as the Bank paid in claimed on his own part and that of his specie, there had been no excess, because noble friend, any intention to make a in that case the issue carried its own remedy charge upon the right hon. gent, whose with it, being payable in specie. The ques conduct, if brought before the house, would tion here was, that the new method had intitle him to its gratitude. There had been produced an effect which the the old meconsiderable misconduct in the Irish trea-thod never had. Whether the loss to the sury, in their management of the bringing over the loan. They had departed from the usual mode, and thereby occasioned considerable loss to the public. The right hon. gent. disclaimed any idea of lowering the exchange, though the expectation had prevailed to that effect, as appeared from the full sum required having been subscribed when the exchange was lowered to par. The noble lord here read an extract from the report of the committee on the Irish currency and exchange, to shew that it was improper in the lords of the treasury to interfere with the exchange, as it would encourage jobbing, which had literally taken place in this case, persons having bought

public was to the extent of the difference between 11 and 13 per cent. it was impossible to tell now, but he thought sufficient ground had been laid for the proposition of his noble friend,

Mr. Lee said, that having been a mem ber of the committee upon Irish affairs, and having attended carefully to the evidence they produced, he had some good reasons to suspect the committee to have been mistaken, in having ascribed the depreciation of Irish notes to the over issuing of paper by the Bank, The issues of the Bank of Ire land were ascertained and well known; but it was the less surprising, that the paper of that company should be depreciated at

homes

home, when even the paper of the Bank | sums were remitted, the exchange must be of England experienced in that country a affected. The subject of the over issue had depreciation of 34. per cent. not been sufficiently investigated. As to the depreciated state of the paper of Ireland, it was a fact of which several gentlemen might not be aware, that the notes of the Bank of England were at a discount of 3 per cent. in Ireland.

Mr. Alexander also considered the depreciation to be owing to circumstances altogether unconnected with the Bank of Ireland; for the private Bankers, even about Dublin, actually circulated notes beyond the issue of the national Bank; which, being by one of its bye-laws obliged to discount mercantile bills at one per cent. below the legal interest, gave to other Banks a great advantage over it.

Mr. J. Latouche expressed himself favourable to the motion, on the ground that the lords of the treasury in Ireland, by the mode they adopted in this instance, did not obtain terms for the public, which they might have done, even under the circumstance of the times. Much was certainly lost by the generally credited report, that the exchange of the two countries was to be reduced to par, and the report not having been contradicted by the Government, which was perfectly well acquainted with its existence, and its procedure deterred the merchants from coming forward on the occasion.

Mr. Foster, in explanation, observed, that the committee of last year, so frequently alluded to, had disapproved of the old mode of drawing bills at par upon England. The method which they seemed to point out, of having recourse to the assistance of the Bank of Ireland, had been resorted to; but they having declined all interference, the lords of the treasury, unwilling to return to the mode condemned by the committee, found themselves, by necessity, compelled to recur to a new method of their own.

Mr. H. Thornton thought the noble lord had not sufficient grounds for his present motion; it was not the manner of passing bills, but the quantity in the market, which was the occasion of the increase or depreciation of the rate of excl.ange. He was afraid that the reduction of the issue of the paper of the Bank of Ireland could not be expected at present. He was surprised that they had not taken the hint given in the report of the committee.-After this, lord A. Hamilton said a few words in reply, and his motion was negatived without a division.

[MILITIA ENLISTMENT BILL.]-The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the object of the measure he intended to propose was, instead of the gradual reduction of the Militia to the original establishment of 40,000 for England, and 8,000 for Scotland, to make the reduction directly, by allowing the supernumeraries now existing above that amount, to volunteer into the line. By the returns of the militia, as it now stood for England and Scotland, for he would propose nothing with respect to Ireland at present, the amount was 70,000 men. On reference to the Militia acts it appeared that the total number of 41,000 for England, and 8,000 for Scotland, were described as privates, in which description corporals were Mr. Grey observed that, though the right not included. It was necessary, therefore, hon. gent. said he had but one alternative to make allowance for corporals, who were left, either to return to the old mode con- included in the return of rank and file. The demned by the committee, or discover some number of corporals in the force to be kept new one himself, he would take the liberty up was 2,300, making in the whole number of reminding him, that it was not drawing for England and Scotland something above bills at par upon England which was con- 1000. Consequently the difference between demned by the committee, but the attempts that and the existing force afforded someof the lords of the Irish treasury to lower thing about 17,000 men to be applied to the the balance of exchange. Near 200,000l. augmentation of the disposable force. Notof the loan of last year was remitted in the withstanding the variety of opinions that exordinary way, and had no bad effect. By isted with respect to all military measures, the measure the treasury took, it placed it- it was a thing agreed on all sides, that an self in the situation of a man who should addition of 17,000 men, to be made in a have property to sell, and should advertise moderate time to our disposable force, would that he must sell it on a particular day; the be a great and important accession of obvious consequence of which would be the national strength in the point in which it depreciation of his property, from a know-was most desirable; he would say further, ledge beforehand of his necessity. at a time when the existing circumstance's Sir W. Pulteney remarked, that when large of Europe rendered it likely that our dis

posable force could be employed with most upon for any one military purpose. This advantage; the beneficial effects of the mea-fluctuation was a further ground for the resure would be still heightened, because it duction, and the deficiency of officers, not was not merely men that would be gained merely officers properly qualified, was such for the regular army, but trained and dis- that there would be not more than sufficient ciplined soldiers, of a description far beyond for the reduced establishment, there being what our regular army afforded till within at present above 500 vacancies for othcers these few years. The acquisition would be in the Militia. If the superfluous men were thus doubly valuable. Great, however, and in the end to be reduced, if while they redesirable as this acquisition was allowed to mained they were not constituted in the be by all who expressed their sentiments on most advantageous manner for the public the military state of the country, he would service, was there ever a case in which there not have desired it if he thought the mea- was juster cause for allowing to be carried sure by which he proposed to carry it into into immediate effect by volunteering, which effect was of such a nature as to be attended was the ultimate object of the determination. with any serious detriment to the Militia as of the last session, and what was acknowit now stands, or as it was allowed by law ledged to be most useful and desirable to to be ultimately fixed. He was one of those the country? It was generally known from who held the unabated zeal and unalienable report, it was known to him from more parpride of the Militia leaders as one of the best ticular authority, that there never was a points in the country, and he should be period at which the militia were more desorry to do any thing to impair so valuable sirous to give their fullest services to their a spirit. The house and the country were country's cause, if they were permitted.→→ called upon by the circumstances of the pre- This was, in truth, the moment at which sent moment to carry into effect the deter- it was most desirable to bring forward such mination formed last session, that the Mi-a proposition, a moment at which he would litia ought not to be maintained at an amount more than 40,000 for England, and 8000 for Scotland. This determination had been formed on the ground that the number of men now locked up for defensive purposes was too great, with a view to a description of force which may be employed for the defence of Ireland and the islands in the channel, and still more with respect to a disposable force, and the means of recruiting that force. The commanding officers of the militia, men of the highest respecta bility, had, besides, concurred that the number of militia officers could no longer be maintained consistently with the constitution of the militia. The ballot fell so heavy, and the procuring officers was so difficult, that the best friends of the militia allowed the best service that could be done to it was to reduce it to the original amount. On these considerations the house had passed an act, in virtue of which all vacancies occurring till the Militia was reduced to that standard were not to be filled up. It happened that by the remoteness from the permanent establishment, by the slowness and uncertainty in the approach to it, by the fluctuations which the occasional decrease occasioned, the strength of the battalions was liable to constant variations, and the companies continued disproportioned in their strength, so that neither could be counted upon as affording any certain force to be calculated

be justified in saying, no difficulty stood in the way of it, if he had not, from the communications he had with the commanding officers of the militia regiments, learned that some of them were adverse to it. Much however, as he respected the opinions of these gentlemen, he could not, in compliment to them, desist from a measure which his public duty required him to carry forward. But he would consult their sentiments and wishes in the arrangement as far as possible consistently with his duty, and it was a satisfaction to him to think, that the reduction he proposed would leave the militia still in a state in which its spirit would not be diminished, nor its character impaired, in a state altogether such that its commanders would have no reason to regret the change that would have taken place. It was not necessary in this stage of the business to go into the detail. The number it was proposed to take was 17,000, out of 68,000 that were now embodied. Thus the proportion that would be called upon to volunteer from each regiment was such, that it was not likely to deteriorate the part that remained. The greater proportion would remain, and may be composed of or may include those men for whom the officers had a predeliction. It was, indeed, a satisfaction that the militia was so constituted, that if its own officers were to chuse the men they were to retain, the remainder

Earl Temple, before he expressed his sentiments on the subject, wished to enquire of the right hon. gent. whether any order had as yet been given by government to facilitate the receiving men as volunteers from the Militia into the regular army.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer in reply, stated, that he had no reason to think that any such proceeding had taken place.Orders might, indeed, have been sent to dispatch recruiting parties to receive suchvolunteers as presented themselves.

would be highly valuable to the army; or if | wishes and desires of the persons concernthe officers of the army were to select those ed. It was not necessary to enter further they would take, those who would remain into the details of the measure, unless any would be still valuable for the militia. The gentleman desired information on a partimode of regulating the volunteering that cular point. When the bill should be inhe proposed was, that when the quotas for troduced, he would feel the same desire to the counties should be fixed, and the orders attend to the suggestions of gentlemen as he specifying the quotas they were respectively had in framing the measure in the first into furnish, a time, not very long, should be stance, and above all, he should be careful allowed to each officer to select those of the not to diminish that spirit and pride which men disposed to volunteer, with whom he was the most beneficial characteristic of the was most willing to part, and to tender militia, and the greatest advantage the coun them. If the men so tendered should try derived from those who devoted their amount to four-fifths of the quota of the re- attention to this valuable branch of the pub giment, the regiment should be released lic force. He concluded with moving for from all further claims. This regulation leave to bring in a Bill for allowing a certain afforded the commanding officer the means proportion of the Militia of G. Britain, voof excluding all intervention that could be luntarily to enlist into his majesty's regular disagreeable to his feelings. If, on the ex- forces. piration of the term allowed, the proportion of four-fifths of the quota should not be furnished, the Commanding Officer was to have the liberty of setting apart one half of the regiment to constitute the foundation of the regiment that was to remain to him: the other half was to be han led over to government to take from it the proportion of volunteers to which it was entitled, the remainder to be given back to complete the regiment. If a greater number should volunteer than Government was entitled to take, they were to be reduced to the just Earl Temple resumed by arguing that this proportion by ballot. For example, in a very proposition before the house was the regiment of 1000 men to be reduced to 700, best possible proof of the inefficiency of commanding officer may set aside 500 men, that Defence bill of the right hon. gent. to whom no offer could be made, and who the repeal of which he had so vehemently were to remain to him without any disturb- opposed. Formerly the militia were only ance whatsoever. From the other 500 go-to undergo a gradual reduction, and the vernment would take its quota, and the re-right hon. gent. seemed to count days and mainder was to be restored to the command-months for the accomplishment of what his ing officer, to form his regiment at the re- bill was to effect for the recruiting of the duced establishment. Out of 68,000, the regular army. Now, however, these expresent amount of the effective Militia, pectations were shewn to be completely fal34,000 were to be set aside to remain un-lacious, and, therefore, to remedy this detouched, as the foundation of the 51,000, which would form the whole of the reduced Militia. When government would have taken its proportion of the other 34,000, that was about one half, the remainder would be restored, and if four-fifths of that proportion were provided and offered at the time limited, the regiments would remain undisturbed by any further call. Thus he set out on a proposition that left no room for jealousy to the commanding afficers; and whatever mode was adopted the effect could not but be desirable to the regular army. The mode he proposed seemed altogether the best calculated to meet the

fect, the militia were not by slow gradations, but by one blow to be reduced to the number of 40,000. This, he maintained, was grossly unjust, and totally contrary to that principle of the abolition of the ballot which the right hon. gent. held out as the grand recommendation of his bill. Here, however, the militia being reduced to 40,000, to which number it was to be kept up, the ballot, as soon as ever any vacancies occurred, must come again into operation. Hardly 24 hours might elapse before the odious exploded system of ballot would be required to keep up the militia to its full complement. The right hon. gentis had