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rested a great deal on the general conviction | been within these few days informed, by entertained of the necessity of a disposable the officer who commanded in his absence, force. He, for one, would be the last man that recruiting parties from the 1st battalion to deny the existence of this necessity, but of guards had actually appeared among the he did not on that account feel himself men, and endeavoured to seduce them from called on to admit this disposable force was their present situation into the regular army. to be obtained in the way now proposed. A letter had been written on this subject to The right hon. gent. had said that never was the colonel of this battalion of the guards, there a moment when the ardour of the and his answer was, "that these parties had militia to volunteer into the regular army gone down to places where militia regiments was more conspicuous. On this subject he were quartered with the express view of rehad a few observations to submit to the ceiving recruits from these regiments." house, but he would first of all refer to the When this was notoriously the fact, he hoped pledges which the militia officers had at dif- the house would hear no more of the deliferent times received on the subject of any cacy with which the militia officers were to future reduction. Under the former admi-be treated. He would, on the contrary, nistration of the right hon. gent. a solemn maintain that such practices as those he had pledge was given that the idea of reducing just alluded to were the most degrading the militia, would not be again recurred to. that could be conceived to the feelings of He knew that it would not be regular in him the militia officers. The right hon. gent. to allude to what had passed in the other had often talked of his affection for the house of parliament. He might be per- militia; but he left it to the determination mitted, however, to state it as a matter of of the house how far such declarations were) history, that a noble lord (Sidmouth) in entitled to any degre of credit. Every one another place, who was then in administra- of the right hon. gent.'s acts relative to the tion, on moving for extending the militia to militia seemed rather to prove that he was its present amount, did also give a solemn axious for the total abolition of the militia pledge that the system of the militia, should system. Could there be a greater proof of not henceforth be attacked. These two go- this than the practice to which he had revernments were now united, and he would ferred, which, though it might not have not take upon himself to determine how proceeded directly from the right hon. gent. much they coincided in opinion. He was was a proof of the general disposition of much inclined to think that they agreed in government. He complained too that courts nothing so completely, as in mutually for- inartials, as well as sentences of courts margetting their pledges to the militia officers. tials, were suspended. Though he allowed He had already referred to an observation that this was for the purpose of applying of the right hon. gent. that there never was the new clauses of the mutiny act, he could a moment when the militia was more in- not help thinking that such a suspension at clined to volunteer into the regular army. the present period was at all judicious. It While such a statement went forth to the had a great tendency to excite a spirit of inpublic, it was requisite that the real state of subordination, particularly in the militia rethe case should be explained. At a meet-giments, combined with those arts of seing of Lord Lieutenants of counties, and duction, which he had felt it his duty to gentlemen interested in the preservation of condemn in the severest terms. He was the militia system, the right hon. gent. had assured them that every thing should be done in the gentlest manner possible, and that all pains should be taken to prevent the slightest insubordination in that part of the militia, whose limited services were to be continued. But how, in point of fact, did the matter stand? He could on this subject take on himself to assure the house on the most unquestionable authority, that means of a very improper nature had even now been resorted to, to procure volunteers from the militia, and to detach them from their colours. He had himself the honour to be colonel of a militia regiment, and he had

wholly adverse to the measure, as a direct tax on the landed interest. Every vacancy that occurred would operate as a fresh tax, and this too, after the solemn pledges to which he had referred. The Militia were now to be reduced to 40,900, but how did the house know how soon it might be reduced to 20,000, or what arts might be employed to encourage volunteering into the regular army. The noble lord here again alluded to the arts employed to detach the militia from their commanders, and touched on the pledges of the right hon. gent. to those present at the interview of which he had already taken notice.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke to order, and thought his lordship ought not to allude to any thing which he, in the way of private communication, and to facilitate the removal of doubts and difficulties, had mentioned. He would leave, he said, to the noble lord himself to determine as to the propriety of doing so, but he must appeal to the Speaker for the order of the thing.

Earl Temple said, the communication was not confidential, and he thought he might therefore mention it.

The Speaker informed him, that in doing so he was debating a different question, and was, of course, out of order.

what disposable force they had possessed, with what confidence could they place in their hands the addition now called for? The right hon. gent. had stated the difficulty of getting officers. Did not this proceed from the fault of government, which had broken faith with the Militia, and had placed them in their present degraded situation? Were not this the case, abundance of gentlemen would be found ready to come forward and officer the different regiments: but the deceptions practised upon them prevented it. At one time the fear of invasion was raised, at another the necessity of foreign service. When the right hon. gent. should submit his new plan for the further degradation of the militia, he should, both from his feelings and every other consideration of the question, give it his hearty opposition. It was held out that these men were to be procured for the regular service on cheap terms; but individuals had paid the expence; and after all, with bounty, and the gratifications of the ale-houses, he really believed that the cost of a recruit would amount to more for the regular army, than by the ordinary mode of recruiting that part of the public force.

Earl Temple resumed. He conceived the proposition of the right hon. gent. which he had alluded to, was made at the time of the expedition to Holland. But the proposition, as it was now put in practice by the right hon. gent. was not only to encourage volunteering from the Militia into the line, but to hire and suborn recruiting serjeants, first to promote debauchery and insubordination in the regiments, and then to crimp a certain number of men, as best suited their purpose, leaving the remainder to the care of their officers, who would have the satisfaction of Colonel Calcraft said he should reserve seeing returned them, out of half the num- the fuller delivery of his sentiments till a ber of their regiment, 150 of the mere re-future occasion presented itself. He wished, fuse! The noble lord concluded his speech however, to know, whether the men were by recapitulating his former arguments, and to be enlisted for life, and for unlimited expressing his firm and decided opposition service. He was likewise not perfectly clear to the present measure. in his understanding of what fell from the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the number of four-fifths of the recruits being made up from the Militia regiments.

Lord Stanley expressed his disapprobation of the bill, on account of its injustice in so many different points; it was subversive of the constitution of the Militia regiments, and directly contradictory to the many pledges that had been given to the house, particularly by the right hon. gent. himself. He had given this pledge, as many would recollect, during a debate in 1799, and again more recently on the Defence act. From several important considerations, he must give his decided negative to the bill.

The Marquis of Douglas expressed his disapprobation of the plan proposed, which he considered as tending materially to hurt ⚫ the militia service, and likewise to retard the recruiting for the line. That an accession to our disposable force was extremely desirous, he thought no person would be found to deny, considering that question abstractedly. But the present proposition ought to be viewed under the particular circumstances that attended it. If the house called to mind the use made by ministers of

Sir James Pulteney thought it could hardly be necessary for any person to ask for any particular reasons being given for the proposed measure, which was merely a proposition, that, if carried into effect, went to make the men more useful to the country than their present mode of service could possibly render them. Under the various limitations and restrictions that were proposed, he could not perceive that any injury would be sustained by the militia service in general. On the contrary, he was led to think, that though the battalions were less in number, they would, from the provisions of this measure, be made more effectual in point of strength, and, consequently, more useful. A great part of the safety of the country, he considered to have been owing to the steps taken with respect to the militia, in the year 1799, during the last war. Upon the whole view of the subject, he was

convinced that the plan proposed deserved | gent. when he brought in his Defence bill? to be supported.

What was become of the abusive epithets he had used of "imbecile and incapable," which he applied for the purpose of driving out the late administration, by far the most constitutional and least presuming he had ever seen? What was become of that famous bill which had put the right hon. gent. in his present place, and which was imme diately to gain an army to the country? It had effected nothing, and he was compelled to resort to the militia, and to abolish his own act. As to the militia, if they were to be reduced as not wanting, they ought to be discharged. He cautioned the house not to favour too much such measures as this. He looked on the militia as the best and most constitutional defence the country could have, and as the best check against any base attempt that might ever be made by an army of mercenaries against the liber ties of a country.

Mr. Fuller was surprised that any gentleman could attempt to thwart the wishes of those brave men belonging to the Militia, who manifested a disposition to serve their country more effectually, by volunteering for the regular army. To give full effect to such a disposition was the object of this bill, and therefore he would support it. With respect to the Militia systern itself, he thought it to have much degenerated from the principle of its original establishment, and he on that account approved of its reduction. He considered ridiculous the lan

Mr. Bastard took notice of the three reasons alledged for the introduction of this extraordinary measure; namely, the want of men for the regular army; the scarcity of officers for the Militia, and the stated ardour of the men belonging to the Militia to volunteer for the regular army. Now, as to the 1st, he conceived it to proceed from the inefficiency of the measure adopted at the instance of the present ministers, for the augmentation of our regular army; the 2nd, he thought a very natural result of that system of tampering with the Militia, which had obtained of late years, particularly under the auspices of the right hon. mover of the proposition before the house. As to the 3d allegation, that many of the Militia were ready to volunteer into the line; the manner which seemed to have been taken to ascertain, or rather to excite that disposition, had been already stated, and animadverted upon with proper severity by a noble lord (Temple.) To what that noble lord had stated he should only say, that it appeared to him absolutely nothing less than an endeavour to excite a spirit of mutiny among the militia, to render them discontentd with the force in which they were engaged and to which they were sworn-Flectere si nequeo superos Acheronta movebo.-Ministers seemed resolved to stop at no expedients, to respect no boundary however venerable, no institution however sacred, to attain an object which they promised when they dis-guage used with regard to the dangers of placed their predecessors, to accomplish without delay or difficulty. The hon. gent. complimented the late economical and constitutional ministry, as he described them, for declining to lay a sacrilegious hand on the militia, and declared that he should rather see the militia system dissolved altogether than thus mutilated and frittered away. He conjured the house not to give way to such bills as the right hon. gent. who proposed this motion was in the habit of bringing forward. He said, the militia officers considered this as a measure of debasement, and he agreed with the noble lord who spoke last, that the difficulty of procuring militia officers was owing to the degrading situation they had been placed in, of serving as mere drill-serjeants, to raise men as militia; and the moment they became disciplined by their labour and attention, they were seduced away, and enlisted into the army. Where were all the magnificent promises made by the right hon.

our situation. With such a force as we had, he contended that we had nothing to fear. With 500,000 men in arms, and a high-spirited people, there was only only one thing wanted, and that was, that the hon. gent. on the other side (Mr.Fox) should take his seat with the right hon. proposer of this motion, to enable us to bid defiance to, and to overwhelm all the dangers that menaced us. Those two great men united, we should soon extinguish the power that threatened to annoy us; we should soon destroy the vessels on the other side of the water; we should speedily clip the wings of the bantam Emperor.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose in reply, and spoke as follows:-I must beg leave, sir, to make a few observations upon what has fallen from some of the hon. gent. opposite. And first, in answer to the question which has been put to me by an hon. colonel, I wish it to be understood, that I mean it should be left absolutely to the com

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manding officer, in the first instance, to se- | known; they were fully explained at the lect any man whom he wishes to part with, time, and it was an extraordinary case, that and, that the whole management, conduct, could not effect or change the general sysand regulation of the business should be en-tem of the Militia. So far as to any positirely at his discretion, without any inter- tive pledge with which I am charged; but ference or controul, provided that the men, a noble marquis (of Douglas) has discovered so selected and willing to enlist for regular a singular sort of constructive pledge which service, shall be of a certain size, and under he thinks may answer the same purpose. a certain age; and if you shall find men of Alluding to the bill for reducing the militia, that description, equal to four-fifths of the he reminds me of having said, at the time proposed number, then no farther step shall it was under discussion, that good faith ought be taken, and such regiment shall be liable to be kept with the militia. The question to no further call. This is the first plan of recruiting was not then in view, nor unwhich I propose; but if it should not be der consideration, so that I do not see how adopted, then I mean in the second case my observation can be brought to bear that the commanding officer shall have it in upon the present question. I said then, his power to set aside one half of his regi- that its reduction, to a certain number, ment, and that the recruiting for general would be the best security, that when so service shall only be made from the remain-reduced it would never be broken in upon ing half. Now, this one half, so selected, again. These are the only pledges I ever and consisting, as we may presume, of the gave. What other pledges the noble lords prime men, will, after the recruiting shall allude to, I know not. I only know what have taken place, be equal to two-thirds of passed within my own mind, and what I the regiment so reduced. Each regiment have said upon the subject. As to the charge will, consequently, have a greater propor- of sending officers to recruit for the line in tion of prime men, than it possesses at pre- the neighbourhood of places where militia sent; and, though it will be weaker in point are quartered, it will be indeed limiting the of numbers, it will be stronger in prime scene of recruiting for the line to a narrow men, in relation to its amount. Now, sir, compass, if every such place must be avoidas to the charge made by a noble earl (Tem-ed. The officer, whose letter has been ple) against this measure, as involving the read, clearly did not conceive, from its conforfeiture of a pledge, I might say, as a di- tents, that he was acting wrong by recruitrect and general answer, that I do not knowing in the neighbourhood of a Militia regiany one who can give a pledge to tie up ment. Is no officer to go into the vicinity parliament from any course which it may think proper to pursue. But as a man may no doubt tie himself up by a pledge, and a charge to that effect has been made against me, I say distinctly that I know nothing of any such pledge. I never gave any pledge of the kind. I am not conscious of any time or place, when or where I ever gave a pledge to that effect. I remember, indeed, that upon the occasion alluded to by a noble lord this night (Temple) that noble lord and his friends loudly condemned the converting of the militia establishment into a mode of recruiting for the line; and I then declared that it was not my intention. Now, if the noble lord and his friends means to exaggerate a conversation of that kind, and used upon that occasion, into a direct and positive pledge, I admit it. I certainly denied upon that occasion that I meant to make the Militia a mere machine for recruiting the army. I denied it then, and I deny it now, but I never gave any other pledge upon the subject. The circumstances under which a recruiting then took place are well

of a corps of Militia for the purpose of recruiting? Where then is he to be sent? If a serjeant be sent out for the purpose of recruiting, he will go where he thinks he has the best chance of success. If he be a good and active person for the purpose, he will make a point of doing so, nor is government answerable for the irregularities which he may possibly commit. Government will guard, as well as they can, against irregularities, and it is their duty to provide for the carrying on of the recruiting service, in the way that shall produce the least trouble, injury, or inconvenience to the individual, or to any other branch of the public service; some irregularities will take place, which government cannot prevent. Now, sir, as to another point, I perceive an attempt made to inculcate an idea, that by this measure I am heaping a burthen upon the landed interest, and that it is a cruel and unjust tax upon the land. The land, they say, has already paid for the men's limited service in the militia, and, therefore, it is cruel and unjust to the landed interest, that

this man should be encouraged to extend | Scotch Appeal, Rochied v. Kinloch, bart. his service more effectually, and that with- viz. Mr. Erskine, in continuation, on be out any additional expence to the landed half of the Appellant; and Mr. Clark, in interest. A more singular and extraordinary part, on the side of the Respondent. The argument than this I never heard. If I pro- farther hearing was deferred till to-morrow. posed to take away a man from the militia,The hearing of counsel was temporarily and that another should be provided to adjourned, for the purpose of the Royal supply his place, there would then be some Assent being given by Commission to the consistency in the reasoning. I remember Marine Mutiny Bill, to lord John Thynne's only one argument more that has been used, Indemnity, and to six Naturalisation Bills. and requires an answer. The noble lord The lords Commissioners were, the Lord (Temple) has said, that at the time we are Chancellor, Lord Hawkesbury, and Lord bringing forward this measure, we have also Walsingham.-The bills upon the table suspended courts martial, and that for the were forwarded in their respective stages. purpose of introducing insubordination into Among these, the Exchequer Bills bill; the the Militia, and destroying its discipline, to British Sugar Duties Drawback, the Spirits facilitate the operation of the plan which I Warehousing, and the following Irish Fihave proposed. Now, what is the actual nance bills, the Stamp Duties, Postage state of the case? Some amendments were Rates, Excise Duties, Malt Tax, Custom found necessary in the Mutiny bill, and we Duties Drawback, and the Irish Expiring therefore suspended the proceedings of Law bills, were severally read a second courts martial during the progress of the time.-Mr. Alexander brought up from the bill, in order that the parties to be tried commons the Irish Sugar Bounty bills, which should have the benefit of the amended act. together with a few Private bills, presented But the bill has been passed, and the per- by other gentlemen, were read a first time. sons charged with insubordination or mis--Mr. Irving, Inspector-General of the conduct, to whom the noble lord alludes, Customs, presented an Account of the may be brought to trial, and punished, if Imports of Great Britain, for 18 years, guilty. Of course, there is nothing in this argument that applies to the case. With regard to the course which I would recommend, I propose, with the leave of the house, to bring in the bill this night, that it should be read a first time, ordered to be printed, and that the second reading should take place on Tuesday, when such gentlemen as are inclined to oppose it, may come prepared with their objections.

Earl Temple, in reply, said, that recruiting parties were sent expressly into the neighbourhood where militia regiments were quartered, for the express purpose of enticing the men to enlist, and did not take that course by chance. With regard to another point, he did not state merely that courts martial were suspended, but he complained also that the execution of sentences were countermanded in cases of trials already had.

The question for leave to bring in the bill was then put, and carried, without a division. It was then brought up and read a first time.-Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Friday, March 22. [MINUTES.]-Counsel were further heard at considerable length, relative to the

ending 5th January, 1805.-Mr. Mitford, from the Treasury, presented an Account of the public expenditure for the last year, and of the Unfunded Debt on the 5th of January last.-Mr. Young, from the Custom House, presented certain Accounts relative to the Trade and Navigation of Great Bri tain, directed to be annually laid before Parliament; and certain Accounts were presented from the Post Office. These accounts were severally ordered to lie on the table. Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, March 22.

[MINUTES.]-The house having attended the house of lords, pursuant to a summons by the Usher of the Black Rod, the Speaker, on their return, informed them that the Royal Assent had been given by Commission to the Marine Mutiny, and Lord J. Thynne's Indemnity Bills.-Mr. Johnson, from the Chief Secretary's Office in Ireland, presented an Account of the Irish 61. per Cent. Duties. Ordered to lie on the Table.-Mr. Irving, from the Customs in Scotland, presented an Account of the Exports and Imports to and from Scot land; and also of all Arrears and Balances in the hands of the Commissioners. Ota

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