catholic has a mischievous project in his ment who are connected with the commerce head, it can be defeated by keeping him out and manufactures of those places. It is true; of parliament? It has always been the ob- but still it is my wish to have a more direct jection to the test act, that two descriptions representation. The fact is, the virtual reof protestants are in the house of commons. presentation is undoubtedly a vital principle We know the dissenters do sit, and have be- in the constitution of the country. If any come the most meritorious of any of its mem- particular class of men are excluded, you bers. What is the objection to the catholics? have not a real virtual representation, in the That they cannot wish well to the church of sense the word representation ought to be England. Why, that is your argument understood, implying a sympathy and felagainst the dissenters. You do not deny low feeling between the representative and the dissenters the privilege of sitting in par- the persons represented. The very substance liament, though you say they do not ap- of representation is, that the members of prove the church establishment. But the parliament should not be able to tax their practice is every thing. What would be the constituents without taxing themselves. practical effect of the catholics having a seat Now I say that there is no feeling of this in the house of commons? Does any man kind with respect to the catholics. Upon believe, that if there were a total repeal of the same principle you deprive the electors these restrictive laws, there would be twen- of Ireland from electing Roman catholics— ty catholic members returned from Ireland you deny the corporations the right of to this house? But I would take it according choosing them, for they cannot be at the to the population of the country, and say, head of any corporation. I want to know that there were four-fifths catholic. If, upon what principle it is that corporations contrary to all the principles that govern are to be denied the privilege of appointing elections, the mere population were the only catholics to the office of mayor, or other suthing to be considered, this would, perhaps, perior offices? Corporations being composed give about 80 members. Now the house chiefly of protestants, there is not much consists of 658 members. Supposing it pos- danger, as some would say, or not much sible that 80 catholics were to be returned hope, as others would say, of the catholics out of that number, though I do not think being admitted. Is not this one of those adthere would be more than twenty, could ditional instances in which you keep the they be dangerous to the establishment of stigma without any practical advantages? this country? If the doctrine of virtual re- You fix an unnecessary stigma on the capresentation be well founded, would it not tholics; and an unnecessary stigma is, of all add to the true virtual representation of this modes of punishment, that which is most country, if three-fourths of the representa- grating to the people, and destructive of the tives were catholics? When people put the unanimity and concord necessary for the argument to extremes, and say, that this safety of the state. I shall say a very few place is not represented, and that place is words as to certain objections to the matter not represented, but that you have those in of this petition. I think the objections to the house of commons who represent the the jacobites are given up; but it is said, whole community; that the trading and that there is something in the nature of the commercial interests, and the military, naval, Roman catholics that makes it dangerous to and learned professions, are all duly repre- grant them the same privileges as protestants. sented; that you have the landed country Some have stated, that there is a general gentlemen, statesmen and politicians, sol- impropriety and incongruity in persons of diers, sailors, merchants, lawyers-in fact, different religious principles acting together. that you have a kind of virtual representa- I should like to know the theory on which tion of all the people of the coutnry, this argument rests. I am speaking now of deny it you have not the representa- religious differences ;-why two men sitting tion of the Roman catholics-you want what in council together should, instead of inquiryou are afraid to have-you ought to desire ing how the forces of the country ought to what they pray for-you ought to have that be disposed of, and where the fleets ought complete virtual representation they offer to be sent, whether to Jamaica or any other you. I have been speaking for the public part of the West Indies, tall to a discussion benefit-I now speak for the benefit of the about transubstantiation, and dispute becatholics. You say to the people of Bir- cause one adores the Virgin Mary and the mingham, Sheffield, and Manchester, it is other adores the saints? Is it to Le supposed true, you send no members to the house of that justices on the bench, when they try commons, but you have members of parlia-criminal or civil points, will quit their duty, In order to commence idle controversies on influence of the pope, with respect to this religious points? There are countries where country, had ceased. His power became The law and religion are one and the same afterwards absolutely insignificant; and duthing where consequently, there would be ring the whole of the question between the an impropriety in separating them: but I houses of Stuart and Brunswick, it was nowant to know, upon what principle it is that torious that the pope could not stir one Romen may not act together, who entertain man catholic in Ireland. But it is stated strong differences on religious creeds. This that the persons principally concerned in Stands upon theory only, for the practice is the rebellion of 170s were Roman catholics. against it. Is there in Europe one state or I have no doubt that the catholics had their country that does not employ persons of dif- share in that rebellion; but were they inferent religious persuasions in the highest stigated by the pope? What! by the pope, offices? In former times even this was the while he was in a state of servitude and hupractice, when there was more heat and miliation? Did the pope, while he looked animosity. When bigotry was at its height to this country as almost his only support, in France, when it led Henry the Fourth to wish to overturn our government, and prerenounce the protestant and embrace the ca- vail on the Irish catholics to follow Messrs. tholic religion, in order to obtain the throne O'Connor, Emmett, and M'Nevin? This of that kingdom, did it ever occur to any fear of the influence of the pope, when he one to suggest, that the Duke de Sully, his has no power to do us harm, and when he minister, who was a protestant, could not cannot do us good, even though he wished it, advise with him about public affairs? Was is perfectly absurd. It is an alarm which can he ever accused of being a bad minister, be- be accounted for on no rational principle. cause he was a protestant? No one ever ob- Has the recollection of the proconsuls, sent jected to M. Neckar, the minister of the by the Caesars to govern this country, left late king of France, because he was a pro- such an impression upon us, as to make us testant. Does not the emperor of Germany dread every thing that comes from Rome?employ protestants in the various important But it is said, Buonaparté has obtained an inaffairs of his dominions? The government fluence over the pope, the pope governs the of Vienna is intrusted to prince Ferdinand of Irish priests, and thus Buonaparte will bẹ Wirtemberg, a protestant. It is true, the able to attach to him the catholics of Ireland. bigotry of Frederick the Great could not in- Without canvassing the question of the induce him to employ protestants as his mi-clination of the pope to serve the views of nisters or officers; but perhaps it was because he could not find any that were fit for his service. What is the case with Russia? The first employment in the service of the emperor of Russia is filled by prince Sarto riski, whose religion is that of the Greek church. With regard to the Swiss cantons, the employment of protestants has been, perhaps, less than in other places, but they have frequently filled offices of government jointly with the catholics. In the democratic canton of Uri, and some others, the catholics were more numerous; a proof that they may take an active part in the ad`ministration of a popular government, with eut any evil, consequences resulting from the opinions, they profess. In the canton of Appenzel the catholics and protestants are half and half. The pretender being gone, and all other questions of radical difficulty removed as to him, we now donte to another person the pope. I wish to know whether, during the last 200 years, the pope has been a person to be feared? If he has, it can only have been in one way, by his oppression of the catholics. Long before the period of the revolution, all the political VOL. IV, Ap Buonaparté, I shall admit that the French 3 I members were chosen for Ireland; and, vernment of this country, it would be an suppose this influence were so far to suc- avowal of wickedness beyond any thing I ceed as to bring a considerable proportion of can conceive. Would you say, that you Roman catholics into this house among proposed and passed acts of parliament to the representatives from Ireland, is it likely persuade them to swear that which you that Buonaparté would find many friends would not believe when sworn? Would among these Roman catholic members? If you own that you wished to seduce them there were eighty members Roman catholics, into perjury? The moment you find that a it would be an extravagant supposition in- man attends mass, he is therefore a Roman deed to say that even three of them would catholic, and therefore no longer to be be be so dead to all sense of honour and duty, lieved. To add to the absurdity, you frame so blind to the interests and happiness of another oath, to keep out of parliament their country, as to become the instruments those very persons of whom it is said you of Buonaparte. Of the influence to be used must not believe that which they swear. in this way by the pope, surely no reason- This is really at once insulting to the under able person can entertain any serious appre- standing and the feelings of mankind. It is hension. Is it possible to look forward to more than a generous and ingenuous mind any future circumstances under which that can be expected patiently to bear I shall influence can become dangerous? Great not pretend to enter into controversial argumen, it is said, have long views; but some ments on the question of doctrine. Indeed, views are so long, that my sight, I must that is a subject respecting which I own I confess, cannot reach them. It has been have neither sufficient learning nor patience said of our system of government, esto per- to fit me for the discussion; but if I had as petua; but I should desire no better secu- much of both as the lord chancellor of Irerity for the power and the constitution of land, I am sure his example would deter me this country lasting for ever, than that they from undertaking so arduous a task. When should continue until either a pope or a Buo- I consider the state of religion in Europe, naparté could obtain a majority in this house. of which perhaps three-fourths of the inha I must now turn to another view of the bitants are Roman catholics, I am astonishquestion. It has always been maintained ed that such opinions respecting that religion that the differences between the Roman ca- can be maintained. Is it possible that any tholics and the protestants are not merely re- man can be found bold enough to say of ligious, but political. It is on this ground three-fourths of the inhabitants of civilized the paths the former are required to take Europe, that they are not to be believed are defended. The oath is framed against upon oath? Such an assertion implies, that the authority of a foreign priest, though that Roman catholic nations are not only incaauthority is merely spiritual. But if it be pable of the relations of peace and amity, any objection to the Roman catholics, that but unfit for any of the relations of society they deny the king's supremacy, what do whatever. The existence of any such you say to the opinions of the people of maxim supposes gross ignorance and barbaScotland The presbyterian religion, which rism in the people among whom it prevails. is established in Scotland, does not admit Every enlightened mind, every man who the king to be the head of the church; and wishes well to his country, must treat it surely the presbyterian doctrine and disci- with scorn and indignation. When a bill pline of it are at least as repugnant to the was some time ago introduced respecting the established religion of this country, as the army, I objected to the caths it contained, opinions of the Roman catholics are! Yet on the ground that it was not fit to ask any Scotland, with this presbyterian church, man to take them; but it will be extraordi forms a part of the united kingdom. But nary indeed, if those who insisted upon predo not the Roman catholics swear, that no scribing these oaths should now turn round, temporal consequences whatever follow from and declare, that they will not believe them the doctrine they hold on the question of when taken. When the petition I had the supremacy? They do swear, and yet it is honour to bring into this house was first said we cannot believe them. What are read, the clear and temperate statement of they not to be believed on oath, because the case which it contains appeared to they are Roman catholics? To make such a make a deep impression. I think I could declaration, is to display to my mind either see gentlemen say to themselves, this great malignancy of heart, or an extraordi- is not the way I used to think of nary deficiency of understanding: but if the the Roman catholics. No, certainly. notu declaration were made on the part of the go- It is not the way in which many used to no longer slaves, but to become men. They ask this; and until they obtain all they want, they have comparatively gained nothing. It would be to shut your eyes to all the evidence of history, to suppose that you could impose upon men an obligation not to look forward to the complete acquirement of their rights; from the moment they began to enjoy any of them, they must aspire to be ou a parity with the rest of their fellow-citizens/ The better argument is, that having already conceded so much, what remains is nothing think, because they had received false impressions from persons who perhaps had an interest in misleading their judgment. But it has since been whispered, that the language of the petition signifies nothing, because it is subscribed only by laymen. I can assure the house, however, that there is no ground of any suspicion on this account. The reason why there are no names of priests in the petition is, because it relates only to civil rights; on this account only, clerical persons thought it would be improper in them to subscribe it. The oath, how-to you to give. Nothing can be more ab ever, has been taken by all the archbishops, surd than the conduct which is adopted tobishops, and most of the priests of Ireland: wards the Roman catholics. You admit the and if it be thought necessary that it should lower orders into the army and navy, and be taken over again, it will be taken. I, you prevent the higher from rising to that however, have always regarded the admi- rank they might expect to attain. You put nistration of the oath as improper, and I arms into the hands of men, who, if the recollect having some difference of opinion French were to land, might be, from their with a late noble friend of mine on this want of knowledge, influenced to do you subject, I mean lord Petre, from whom, mischief; and yet you will not trust ford had he sat in the house of lords, the esta- Fingal, or his brother, with a command. blished religion of this country would have You rely, however, it appears, with confihad nothing to fear, for he would have only dence, on the loyalty of the ignorant and obtained more frequent opportunities of dis- the prejudiced, and you intrust them with playing his sincere attachment to the consti- arms. Of which class of Roman cathones tution. His lordship defended the oath, be- are you afraid; the higher, or the lower? cause it afforded the Roman catholics an op- You do not trust those whose property gives portunity of publicly contradicting the ca- them an interest in the country, and whose lumnies reported against them. I said, that superior knowledge and information teach that might be an object with him, but it them to prefer the government of their was none with me, and that I did not wish country to every other; but you rely on the such a law to remain on our statute-book. ignorant and uninformed. You place in the Having stated that I entirely disapprove of hands of the latter the means of insurrec this oath, I must, however, inform the tion, and you take from the former the powhouse, that I have at this moment, in my er they would have, by their influence, to pocket, a letter from several of the arch-repress commotions. But though you have bishops and bishops, declaring that they have taken and signed the oath. They also declare, that it contains nothing contrary to the doctrines or faith of the Roman catholic religion, and that it is to be taken equally by the clergy and the laity; but foreseeing that the fact of the oath being taken might be questioned, certificates have been sent from the courts before which it was administered. It is in these courts, therefore, a matter of record, and the authority of the fact is completed. It is said, that since the Roman catholics have already got so much, they ought not to ask for more. My principle, however, is directly the reverse. It is natural that men in a state of servitude should wish to recover their rights; that they should desire to assimilate their rights with those of their fellow-citizens, in order that they may acquire a greater degree of sinilarity with them; It is their ambition to be little to give, what they have to ask is to them immense. You have left them much power to do you mischief, and have afforded them little means of doing you good. Though they require only qualification, coporation, parliament, and offices under goverminent, the object is of great magnitude to them. It is founded on the great principle of requiring to be placed on a footing of equality with their fellow-subjects. Equality of rights is one of the principles which is dearest to the human heart, and it is one which the laws of Great-Britain, to their immortal honour, sanction. In whatever country that principle prevails, it produces the greatest of blessings. That country is truly happy, where, in the language of a great modern poet, "Though poor the peasant's hut, his feasts though shell, * Hesekshisinde lot the lot of all, "Sees no contiguous palace rear its head, nexion with the members of the church which they have left, that church no longer expecting assistance or friendship from them; whereas particular persons might insinuate themselves into offices of trust and authority, by subscribing political assertions, and yet retain their predilection for the interests of the religious sect to which they continued to sometimes find, though it could not accuse belong. By which means government would the individual, whom it had received into its service, of disaffection to the civil esta blishment, yet that, through him, it had communicated the aid and influence of a powerful station to a party who were hostile to the constitution. These answers, however, we propose rather than defend. measure certainly cannot be defended at all, certain obnoxious principles in politics, and except where the suspected union between certain tenets in religion, is nearly universal; in which case it makes little difference to the subscriber whether the test be religious or political: and the state is somewhat better secured by the one than the other." I shall only take up the time of the house a few moments in reading another passage, in which it is clearly stated, that restrictions should not be continued after the circumstances in which they have originated have ceased. The If a people are placed in a state of humility and degradation, can it be said, that to get out of that situation is to them nothing But the confusion which prevails on this occasion has arisen from mixing politics and religion, two things which it has always been the wish of the wisest philosophers and statesmen to keep distinct and separate. It is with great concern I have heard, that some eminent members of the established church are hostile to the proposition I have to make; but I have some consolation in reflecting, that I have with me a person who enjoys as high a reputation as any member of the church, and for whose character I have the highest veneration and respect-I mean, Dr. Paley. He observes, "it has indeed been asserted, that discordancy of religions, even supposing each religion to be free from any errors that affect the safety or the conduct of government, is enough to render men unfit to act together in public stations. But upon what argument, or upon what experience, is this assertion founded? I perceive no reason why men of different religious persuasions may nof sit upon the same bench, deliberate in the same council, or fight in the same ranks, as well as men of various or opposite opinions Thus, if the members of the Romish upon any controverted topic of natural phi- church for the most part adhere to the inte losophy, history, or ethics." Dr. Paley con- rests, or maintain the right, of a foreign siders restraints only justifiable on account of pretender to the crown of these kingdoms, political opinions, which may affect the safe- and if there be no way of distinguishing ty of government. In endeavouring to state those who do from those who do not retain the case of exclusion, he says" After all, such dangerous prejudices, government is it may be asked, why should not the legis- well warranted in fencing out the whole lator direct his test against the political prin- sect from situations of trust and power. But ciples themselves, which he wishes to exeven in this example it is not to popery that clude, rather than encounter them through the laws object, but to popery as the mark the medium of religious tenets, the only of jacobitism; an equivocal, indeed, and falcrime and the only danger of which consist lacious mark, but the best, and perhaps the in their presumed alliance with the former? only one that can be devised. But then it Why, for example, should a man be required should be remembered, that as the connexto renounce transubstantiation before he be ion between popery and jacobitism, which admitted to an office in the state, when it is the sole cause of suspicion, and the sole might seem to be sufficient that he abjure justification of those severe and jealous laws the pretender? There are but two answers which have been enacted against the prothat can be given to the objection which this fessors of that religion, was accidental in its question contains: first, that it is not opi- origin, so probably it will be temporary in nions which the laws fear so much as incli- its duration; and that these restrictions nations, and that political inclinations are ought not to continue one day longer than not so casily detected by the affirmation or some visible danger renders them nedenial of any abstract proposition in poli-cessary to the preservation of public tran tics, as by the discovery of the religious creed with which they are wont to be united secondly, that when men renounce their religion they commonly quit all con quillity." Whatever then may be the opinions of certain members of the esta blishment, I am happy to have the op portunity of quoting one authority, which |