The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution of Mr. Lawrence, as follows:

Resolved, That the Chair appoint a committee of seven, whose duty it shall be to examine into and report to this Convention what offices, if any, may be abolished without detriment to the public service, and especially of those created by law since the revision of the Constitution of 1846.

the resolution from the table. The President of the due respect to the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Convention of 1846 stated that one of the great | Harris], I think the matter does not pertain to the works which had been accomplished by that Con- Committee on Towns and Counties, for the officers vention was the abolition of a host of useless I had in view do not belong to towns and counoffices. I suppose it would be an appropriate ties, they are State officers, and are appointed by field of inquiry in this Convention to ascertain the executive or otherwise. whether any superfluous offices now exist. It Mr. CLINTON-Mr. President; I am a little was with a view of such an investigation that I surprised, unless perhaps I misunderstood the offered the resolution proposing this inquiry. I do gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris]. I have no it because there is no proper committee to pursue doubt but the Board of Regents of the University an inquiry into the subject. of the State are, in one sense, an antiquated body, but they certainly have proved to be a useful body, and a body which, from its very commencement down to this day, has been composed of honorable gentlemen who have served the State and the cause of education without compensation. I would ask the gentleman from Albany, [Mr. Harris] whether the inquiry as to that body, and as to its utility, and whether it is desirable to Mr. HARRIS-I hope that such a committee continue or do away with it, is not referable to, will not be appointed. It is a very important and or properly inquirable into, by the Committee on appropriate inquiry suggested by the gentleman, Education and the funds relating thereto. They but which may very well be referred to the Com- have the charge of a portion at least, of the mittee on Towns, Counties and Villages, their funds relating to education, and they have much Organization, Government and Powers. If there to do with the management, direction and incorbe any useless offices as the gentleman has sug-poration of the academies and colleges of this gested, the matter can be referred to that commit- State. Whatever I may think of the body itself, tee. I move, therefore, that the subject be their functions are high and honorable and I am referred to the Committee on Towns and Counties. surprised to find the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Mr. GREELEY-Mr. President I trust not. Harris] characterizing it as antiquated, and treatThere is a body called the Board of Regents of ing it as though he considered it a worthless body. the University, and I wish an inquiry instituted as to the utility of that body. That subject could not be properly referred to the Committee on Towns and Counties, and I hope that the Convention will order an inquiry made to see what offices can be dispensed with, and which could not be properly inquired into by the Committee on Towns and Counties.

Mr. HARRIS-Mr. President, I certainly have no intention to cast any dishonor upon that antiquated body called the Regents of the University. It is an antiquated body, but it is composed of excellent, venerable and useful men. I have as high respect for them as the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton]. I intended no disrespect to them whatever. I have long thought, however, that Mr. HARRIS-Really my friend from West- the organization might be greatly improved; I chester, [Mr. Greeley,] has industriously found think so now, but I doubt whether it is a matter out that there is a set of State officers that are coming properly within the province of this body. not provided for by the committees at present I think it is a matter rather for the Legislature to appointed. I suppose that all these State officers have been provided for by these committees, but the Regents of the University. If the gentleman chooses to raise a committee with reference to the Board of Regents, I shall have no objection; but it seems to me that that is the only case which is not provided for. I hope that the inquiry asked for by the resolution of the gentleman from Yates, [Mr. M. H. Lawrence,] will go to the Committee on Towns and Counties, and their government.

Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-With all due respect to the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris], I had in my mind an entirely different class of officers. As I said before, the President of the Convention of 1846, stated the fact that they had secured the safety of the school fund. I have my doubts, Mr. | President, whether that fund is secure, for that money raised from the several counties is in the hands of one hundred and twenty different officers, and rumor has it, the fund is not altogether safe. It was with a view to the entrance upon this inquiry that I offered the resolution, which I think is proper, and I think the people of this State will recognize this as a proper body to investigate these abuses, if they do exist. do exist. And And with all

consider than for this Convention; but I agree
with the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton], if
there is anything to be done in respect to it, it
properly belongs to the Committee to which he
has alluded, -the Committee on Education. As
to all the other State officers, the subject is
properly referred to other committees, and I think
the gentleman from Yates [Mr. M. H. Lawrence]
will find his object accomplished through the
Committee on Towns and Counties, and their gov-
ernment. I cannot imagine that there is any case
which is not already provided for by our com-
mittees, and 1 hope my motion will prevail.

Mr. MERRITT-I move to amend by substitu-
ting another committee.

The PRESIDENT—A motion to amend is not now in order; the question is upon the motion of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Harris.]

Mr. CHURCH-I think there is no subject properly brought before the Convention, which is not already within the jurisdiction of some committee appointed by this body. I am opposed to the multiplication of other committees, it will lead to inextricable confusion in the business of this Convention, and I move therefore to lay this motion upon the table.

:

The question was then put on the motion of women of the city of Utica, asking for equal rights Mr. Church and it was declared carried.

Mr. MERRITT moved that the Convention adjourn.

Mr. PRESIDENT-The Chair desires respectfully to call the attention of the gentlemen of the Convention to Rule 11, which the Secretary will read.

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the rule as follows:

"Rule 11. When a motion to adjourn, or for a recess, shall be affirmatively determined, no member or officer shall leave his place till the adjournment or recess shall be declared by the President." The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Merritt, and it was declared carried.

THURSDAY, June 20, 1867.

The Convention met at eleven o'clock A. M. Prayer was offered by the Rev. CHARLES GRAVES.

The Journal of yesterday was read by the Secretary.

Mr. SMITH-To the resolution I had the honor of introducing yesterday there was an amendment offered, and the Journal makes me to have accepted it. That is a mistake; I did not accept it, because the resolution as amended did not express my views.

The Journal was ordered to be corrected in that respect.

There being no further objection, the Journal was declared approved.

The PRESIDENT-The Chair desires to make the following explanation:

for men and women.

Mr. FRANCIS-I move that the Convention take up the report of the Select Committee, in reference to the publication of the debates and proceedings of the Convention, in two of the Albany newspapers.

The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Francis, and it was declared to be carried.

Mr. FRANCIS-Mr. President, the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] opposes the publication of the report of the proceedings and debates of this Convention, in the Albany Journal and the Argus on the terms proposed, on the ground that there is no authority in law for such an arrangement. It is true, sir, that the law is silent on the subject of newspaper publication of this matter. We assume so much as this, and simply recommend an appropriation by the next Legislature to meet what is deemed a proper, if not necessary expense. In the final completion of the list of standing This Convention, I suppose, possesses certain committees announced yesterday, the name of Mr. inherent powers not specifically defined by legisEly, of Monroe, who had been assigned a position, lative enactment-powers requisite to the convewas inadvertently omitted. The Chair deeply nient arrangement and dispatch of its business. regrets the error, and by the consent of the Con- The people have delegated to the Convention a vention, and of Mr. Hand, of Broome, places Mr. | higher authority than the Legislature possesses; Ely upon the Committee "on the Secretary of and to say that it cannot, in the exercise of that State, Comptroller, &c.," in place of the former authority, proceed a step beyond the powers which gentleman. This explanation and order will be legislation has conferred, is to assume that the entered on the Journal at large. Legislature is superior to the people-that the Mr. CORBETT offered a memorial from the citi-agent is greater than the principal. Bear in mind, zens of Syracuse, asking for the adoption of a constitutional provision, securing the right of suffrage to both men and women.

Which was referred to the Committee on the Right of Suffrage.

this Convention was called by the people, not by the Legislature; the Legislature only undertook to carry into effect the popular will by its subsequent action. Wherein it may have failed to make proper provisions for the carrying on our work, the Convention itself may, I take it, supply the deficiency — and, as in this case, recommend an appropriation by a future Legislature to defray the necessary expense. But we are told that the publication in the newspapers as proposed, will in

Mr. FULLER-I desire to present the outlines of a plan for the reorganization of the judiciary, drawn up by an able jurist, late a judge of the Court of Appeals, who was promoted to the bench of that court from the Supreme Court, and who is fully acquainted with the facts and workings of volve a needless and very large expense, and the our judicial system in all its branches, and which plan also has been approved by another ex-judge of the Court of Appeals, an eminent jurist. I desire that it may be received and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

The memorial was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

Mr. GRAVES-I desire to present a memorial from Mrs. F. D. Fish and one hundred and eighty other citizens, worthy and intelligent men and

gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald,] states the cost at $14,000, if the proceedings and debates shall comprise matter to the extent of a volume. of 1,000 pages of the usual document size. I I have it in my power, sir, to correct the gentleman's statement. By actual measurement the 1,000 pages referred to are equal to 572 columns. of the "Albany Journal." For publication in two papers of the 572 columns at $6.50 each per column, we have $7,436 as the cost. This is.

and $5,000 to the Argus, and provided further that the business and debates shall be published at the latest, within twenty-four hours after each session of the Convention.

Mr. FRANCIS-If the gentleman will make the sum $12,000, I will be happy to accept the amendment.

little more than one half the estimate of the gen-ceed the sum of $10,000, or $5,000 to the Journal, tleman, and serves to show that he has based his argument upon erroneous premises. It is insisted that the pamphlet publication by the Convention Printers will serve us better and at much lower rates, and we are assured that the printers will in no event be more than three days behind in placing the debates upon our files. Now I beg leave to differ with this opinion. Mr. E. BROOKS-Mr. President; the cost of Even in the publication of the Assembly journals these debates must depend entirely upon the length during the sessions of the Legislature, with much of the Convention—the sessions of the Convention. less matter than our debates will comprise, the If we are to sit here one hundred and twenty printer has usually been behind from three days to days as has been intimated, or if we are to hold one week, and in some instances a still longer prolonged sessions of the Convention even for period. Now, bear in mind this matter, equal to one hundred days, probably the sum named would eight or ten columns per day, must be put in type, be requisite to pay the expenses of this publicaproof read and corrected, then stereotyped and tion; but I have heard, perhaps incorrectly, that made up and worked in separate book forms. I the amendment which I proposed would be satisundertake to say, sir, that, judging from experi- | factory, and it was with that view that I limited ence, we shall be extremely fortunate if, with the the amount to $10,000. I certainly should be pamphlet publication, we are enabled to keep extremely unwilling to put that limitation in the up our files within four or five days of date. amendment unless I believed it would be a fair Then again, sir, if we undertake to circulate compensation for the work to be done. The genthese pamphlet issues there will probably be a tleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis], who is a day's delay in mailing, there will be the postage publisher and a printer, and who has given very of two cents upon each copy sent, and the matter considerable time and attention to this subject itself will become stale before it reaches those to necessarily knows more of the subject than I do, whom it may be addressed. Is this the proper and, therefore, at his suggestion, believing it not method to reach the public mind and inform the to be an unfair one, I will accept the modification. people of our doings here? Is it the proper Mr. GREELEY-I have listened with great course to pursue for our own enlightenment in attention to the report and also to the remarks of the great work we have to do? But there is the Chairman of the Committee, for some light this further consideration that is worthy of atten- upon one question of considerable importance, and tion. Members of this Convention will not all that is, supposing these debates to be as we hope be here during our discussions. Some will be they may be, such as the people of the State of absent not unfrequently for days at a time. Pub- New York will wish to read, what reason is lished in the newspapers, the full debates will there for paying at all for their publication? promptly reach them, and while the subjects dis- That question I do not find answered, either in cussed are still fresh. The absentees will thus be the report, or the speech of my excellent friend enabled to instruct themselves in our work, and be from Rensselaer [Mr. Francis]. In my judgment better prepared to act and vote intelligently here. if the matter to be printed is such as the We have evidence already as to the prompti- people want to read, they will pay for printtude with which publication of the debates is ing it. If either of the journals in Albany made by the newspapers. With four papers con- had one month ago advertised that it would taining the debates delivered to each member of publish full and accurate debates of the proceedthe Convention, all will be abundantly and ings of this Convention for a certain price-the promptly supplied for present use and future refer- usual price of that journal-say for three months, ence. The circulation of the two papers named I am very confident that the additional subscripis not principally nor mainly confined to this lo- tions would be abundantly sufficient to defray this cality as has been stated. It reaches every sec- cost. For, Mr. President, I understand this to be tion of the State, and includes every newspaper the state of facts, that we of the Convention, as of this State as exchanges. But the fact still re- we have been virtually instructed through the mains that pamphlets are little read, and news- Legislature, have elected a Stenographer, papers are generally read. The pamphlets with competent, prompt and able, who reports at the debates, days behind date, would fail to answer our expense, and not that of the jourour purpose and that of the public, as a means of nals of Albany, the debates of this body. instruction in the important business of this Con- It is our report, paid for by the people of the vention The newspaper publicity would meet State of New York, that these journals will pubthis object, enabling us the better to discharge our lish, if they publish any; they simply take the duties intelligently, at the same time spreading report-(as is very proper and entirely rightbefore the people information of the highest im- and I hope it will be always open to every jourportance, as bearing upon the question of the ap-nal)- for which the people pay, which we have proval or rejection of the amended Constitution at employed competent persons to make, and they the ensuing general election.

Mr. E. BROOKS-I propose to introduce a proviso to the majority report, to go in at the close of the resolution, to read as follows:

print it in their journals, it having cost them nothing up to the time it is prepared for the press. It seems to me if we are to furnish this matter ready for the press, and the people of the State of Provided, That the expense of printing the New York, want to read it, and these two Journals debates in the two journals named shall not ex-are circulated almost exclusively within the borders

of this State, and taken I may say almost entirely | without all this additional expense, by a simple by people who would be likely to take an interest in transfer of the type of the papers into the pamphlet these proceedings, I cannot comprehend the neces- form.

sity or the justice of any payment whatever. If Mr. ALVORD-I understand the fact to be it were published, say in a New York City jour- mainly as stated by the gentleman from New York nal, the publisher might say "My circulation is | [Mr. Duganne,] but still it wants this explanation mainly or largely in other States than New York, that the contract is to be made by the Compand your proceedings will not interest my subscri- troller of this State, in case the Convention rebers or readers," and I think there might be a quire it; that we have got to act affirmatively in color of right in this statement. But I think there regard to the matter before these debates can be should be no claim to compensation for printing printed at all. The question seems to me to rematter of interest to the great body of their readers; solve itself simply into the question, whether or but for these two journals I say, and I trust with not we shall go outside of the liberty and the sufficient humility, that I believe the proceedings of power which has been given to us by the Legislathis Convention will be as interesting to their read-ture with regard to this matter, and undertake ers as almost any other matter with which they to make a debt for a future Legislature to pay. can fill their columns, and, therefore, I conclude if It strikes me that the gentleman from Westwe furnish the matter ready for the press and they chester [Mr. Greeley] is emminently right, that print it, the bargain will be a fair one on our part if these papers in Albany do not publish these and favorable to them, in case we give them no debates they will be the losers, and that they can money and ask them for none. In that convic-well afford to take from the hands of our Stenotion, Mr. President, and believing that we should grapher each and every day this matter, without be very careful in expending money which is not provided for by the act calling us together; believing that only a very urgent necessity should constrain us to expend so much as $12,000 for the purpose of enlightening a very moderate portion of the people of the State in regard to our doings, I object to the resolution, and I ask the ayes and noes on its passage.

any expense to them in its preparation, and put it in their daily journals as a means of their support among those who are the patrons of the papers, and it would be invidious on our part to select the two papers of this locality, because they happen to be here, and pay them six thousand dollars a piece, for publishing these debates, when as a matter of necessity they are so curtailed in Mr. FULLER-This subject of the publication their circulation, that there are many papers in the of the debates of this Convention, is one of con- interior of the State that absolutely go to more peosiderable importance, and one upon which I, being ple than the papers of this city which are here ignorant of these matters, desire more light. I spoken of. But, above all else, I am opposed, exdo not understand that this Convention have, as cept when driven by absolute and sheer necessity, yet, made any order upon this subject, or have to violating, in any regard, the financial programme contracted for the publication in any form. I un- laid down by the Legislature. The people of this derstand that the report of the committee contem- State have complained over and over and over plates their publication only in these two daily pa- again, in regard to the Legislature itself, that pers. If that is the only publication there is to be either by implication or by direct violation of law, made of the debates of this Convention, I am free they have gone on and made expenditures of to say that while I should desire to read large sums of money, under the name of the them, from day to day, yet it will be contingent expenses of the two houses in their a very unsatisfactory way in the end, annual sessions, to such an extent that it is and I desire that the debates of this Conven- necessary, if we do our duty here, for us, by tion, which will be, in importance, second only to absolute constitutional prohibition, to put an end to its journal, shall be in some more permanent and it. We shall, with a very bad grace, come forward some more accessible form, to which we may have and undertake thus to tie up subsequent legislarecourse hereafter for the construction of the Con- tion in that direction, if we commence here at the stitution which we may adopt, as well as, from very outset to violate the principle ourselves. I, day to day, during the sitting of this Convention. therefore, am decidedly in favor, so far as this It seems to me this is the more important publi-matter is concerned, that we should live within cation of the two, and it is very desirable that the the limits of the law, which has, to a certain exdebates of this convention, which will be impor- tent-not created us here, I agree-but limited tant not only to us, but to those who are to come after us, and to courts and Legislatures, should be published in a permanent form, as were the debates of the last Convention, and also in a convenient form.

Mr. DUGANNE-I would answer the gentleman who spoke last, [Mr. Fuller] by informing him that a contract has been made by the Comptroller for the publication of the debates of the Convention in a pamphlet form, and that this press publication in the daily papers, is added to the original contract, or is a supplementary contract to be made by them.

Mr. FULLER-Then I would like to make this further inquiry, whether this cannot be done

the power of our expenditure, and that we should go on and order, as we necessarily must, under the contract made by the Comptroller, that there shall be a certain amount published of our debates in a certain form, and laid upon our tables from day to day, and leave to these local papers of the city of Albany the option to print, as a part of the matter for the general benefit of their patrons, each and every day these proceedings, which we thus give to them without charge.

Mr. MURPHY-This question is presented tc the Convention in two lights; first, as to the power of the Convention; and second, as to the expediency of printing in the form proposed. I am decidedly in favor of the report of the

committee, for reasons which I will state, in view papers of what members may say, we shall leave of these two considerations. Undoubtedly, the it, in the first place, for correspondents to caricaComptroller will not pay for the expenses now ture what may be said; and in the second place, proposed, because his warrant for the payment we shall often have the precise point of the speakof moneys is the law under which we are er, and perhaps, his statements, misrepresented. acting, and he will pay only so much money But it is said that the Comptroller has provided as is authorized by this law to be paid by that these debates shall be published in pamphlet him, as directed by this Convention; but it form, which will obviate the necessity of the promust be obvious to this Convention, that we are posed publication. I apprehend this publication not to be restricted in the performance of our du- in pamphlet form will not be on our desks as ties, in carrying out these matters which have promptly as the newspapers, because with the been entrusted to us by the people under this law. newspapers it is a very necessity, to appear by Whether the Comptroller will pay is one ques- a certain hour; so that they will be in every memtion; and whether this Convention may, or should ber's hands at the breakfast table, and he will contract beyond, is another question. We have know what has been said the day before, in conordered these partitions to be taken down, and sequence of the rule which prevails with regard have directed the Secretary to have them taken to the publication of newspapers. Not so with away. It certainly has been attended with some these documents, which may come to us one, two, expense which is a proper charge, which must be three, four or five days after the debate has taken paid, and which undoubtedly will be paid. We place. Another point of view is, with regard to ordered yesterday that clerks should be appointed the expense. If it will be less expensive to print to certain committees. That expense is not con- it in pamphlet form, I think we may obviate the templated by the act, and yet, if this Convention objection which arises from the consideration that deem it necessary and proper that these Commit- we should have this in pamphlet form, as well as tees should have clerks, no one can doubt the in this newspaper form, by making some arrangepropriety of their being paid, or that the Legis- ment with the printers to have the matter in their lature will make provision for their payment. columns transferred to pamphlet form at a much The point is this; where the people have ordered less rate than has been contracted for by the Compthis Convention to assemble to do their duty, troller. This is not an unusual thing; the Congress they have, also resolved that its members shall of the United States publishes its debates at its have all the power necessary for the proper per- own expense in the Congressional Globe and I do formance of its duty. We, therefore, come back not know why we may not do the same. In all to the consideration of the second point-Is this the views of this question, therefore, I shall susnecessary? Is this proper? Is it required for the tain this report. convenience of this Convention, and for the performance of its duties? The point has not been presented in my view upon the ground upon which it has struck my mind. It is not whether "That the Comptroller and Secretary of State these debates will, by means of these local be requested to contract with two daily papers newspapers, go to the people at large, or not. published in the city of Albany, to publish For I suppose that, by any newspaper publi- daily reports of the proceedings and debates cation and distribution, these debates will not reach the people in time to react in any manner upon the action of this Convention. It is not, therefore, for that purpose that I support this resolution, and deem this necessary for our own The objection to adopting the resolution, as reconvenience. It is impossible, from the way we ported by the committee, seems to be based upon are seated in this Convention, as well as for other the idea that this Convention has not the power reasons, to know exactly all that may be said in to make this recommendation, or incur this debt. the course of debate; some of our discussions here I concur somewhat in that sentiment, but it seems will be continued for days, and on important to me that, by the provision of the 8th section of questions, perhaps for weeks, and it is proper for the act, the power is conferred upon the Compthe true consideration of the questions that we troller and Secretary of State, and that they are should know all that is said, and that all vested with the discretion to decide what printing points should be met, we should have before us is necessary for the use of this body, and, with the words as they may fall from the members. I that view, I have offered this amendment. I will wish to know and to be able to read for myself read the 8th section, as my argument seems to be when I shall not have heard the remarks of the suggested by that. member or delegate, what he has said, and by means "Sec. 8. The Comptroller and Secretary of State are of this simultaneous publication in the newspapers hereby authorized and required to receive proposals I shall know what I should not be able to find and make contract, for all the printing necessary for out otherwise. The publication of these debates and all such printing shall be done under that contract. the said Convention, under the provisions of this act, in this form, I regard also as important in another Such proposals shall be called for on public notice by point of view. I think if we have the full debates advertisement as they shall determine. published at the time, members will be more It seems to me it was the intention of the Legcareful in what they say, and, it will have a islature that these two State officers should decide wholesome influence upon the tone and character what printing is necessary, and if this body reof our debates. If they are not published in this quests them to make a contract of this character, form, and we merely have a summary in the news-they will concur in the suggestion, and we shall

Mr. BARKER-I move to amend the resolution by striking out all after "resolved," and inserting the following:

of this Convention, as furnished by the stenographer, providing the same can be contracted for at just and reasonable rates, and not exceeding in the entire amount twelve thousand dollars.”