The CHAIRMAN The Chair leaves the gentleman to proceed in his own way, and if he is out of order the Chair will call him to order. Mr. HAND—I certainly so understood. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-My friend [Mr. Hand] did not report me so in his speech. My friend from Ontario [Mr. Folger] must have mistaken Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND- The question under the conversation we had in the library for a con- discussion is the question, as I understand it, of versation we had in this Convention. the propriety of extending the right of suffrage to Mr. FOLGER-Perhaps the change of phrase-colored men, as well as to men that are not colology was the result of that conversation. ored. And I hold on this question the same doc[Laughter.] trine which I have had occasion to urge and Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-If it was, I should reiterate before this committee, that men not shrink even from the doctrine I laid down in have a natural right to participate in the the library to my friend from Ontario [Mr. Folger]; administration of the government under which and I say to my friends who come here, instructed they live; and as I was charged by the by their constituents to extend the right of suffrage gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], before to the colored race, that if they come upon this this committee, with an inconsistency in floor, and give up the argument at the outset, my views, and with holding doctrines which their colored friends will accomplish very little were (to adopt the phrase which that gentlefrom their advocacy. But I will go on, if the gentle-man used literally) "absurd, " I deem it proper, man will allow me. I say that my friend from not wishing to trespass upon the rules laid down Broome [Mr. Hand] was so excited from some by the Chair, and if not deemed by the Chair out cause, I know not why, that he put into my of order, to proceed to show that the argument mouth a word I certainly did not utter, and a urged against my position by the gentleman from word which the printed report of my remarks Broome [Mr. Hand], was inconsistent with itself, will show I did not utter, and that is the word in this; that whereas the gentleman from “inalienable,” because I held then, as I hold now, that a man may alienate every right under the government under which he lives. I say my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand] held me up as a monster for having laid down the doctrine that a man had a natural right to participate in the administration of the government under which he lived, and after giving me an excoriation for laying down that doctrine Mr. HAND—I call the gentleman to order. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I hope the gentleman will not interrupt me. Mr. HAND-I rise to a point of order. I deny having spoken of the gentleman as a monster, or using any language The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinion that under strict parliamentary rules the remarks of the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] are not in order, although not for the reason assigned by the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand]. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-My remarks are directed to the printed report of the speech of that gentleman. Mr. HAND—The report does not show any snch language. I beg The CHAIRMAN—The Chair will inform the gentleman that order must be preserved in the committee. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-My remarks were directed to the printed speech of that gentleman, which I understand The CHAIRMAN- The Chair will inform the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend] that his attention has been called to the fact by motion in the committee, and it must, therefore, hold that the gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend] cannot, under the guise of a debate, upon the proposition of the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy], settle a controversy with the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand]. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I would ask the Chairman if it would not be in order to discuss an argument which was presented against myself? Is not that pertinent to the debate? Broome [Mr. Hand] charged that this doctrine think of principle or we shall be afloat upon a boundless | sent of those that occupied the land where the govsea, without chart or rudder. The gentleman from ernment was to operate every one of them, and Broome [Mr. Hand], says that it is absurd to say it is too late now to talk about either the divine that a man has any naturial rights, but he locates right of kings, the divine right of" the powers that this right in society. Somebody has this right. be," the divine right of anything, except the right Here is a power to be exercised. It is a power of man to govern himself as he shall judge best that is sought to be exercised of right. Where for his interest and for the interests of his counlies the right of government? In whom is it try. When the hardy pioneer goes out beyond the vested? In whom is the right of suffrage settlements, he goes out alone; he has neither vested? Why, sir, from the day when Nimrod wife nor child. He plants his cabin-he is alone. rode down the world rough-shod, as the mighty Does society govern him there? He has selected hunter in Asia, down to now, this doctrine has been a choice spot. By and by a neighbor comes, then discussed, and until the landing of the pilgrims another and another, until they have five hunupon our shores the doctrine was, that the right dred; they consult together and say it is time we of government rested in royalty, and that came had some government here, framed by common from God. That is the picture that the human race consent; we will organize ourselves. An organi. has been set to look upon for nearly six thou-zation is formed, and just at that time comes along sand years, a picture that has been held up for uni- the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], and he versal gaze and admiration, that this right rested says, "How are the people governed here?" The in royalty, that the right to govern was of first settler says, "I have something to say about divine appointment, and that the individual had this thing; there are five hundred of us; I am no right to participate in government. Shall we do, one of them, and we govern ourselves. We are sir, as a distinguished individual in our country did, laying the foundation for one of those States; in regard to the picture of Sir Robert Peel? It is perhaps I am going to become a Senator in said that a distinguished individual in the United Congress by and by, as the pioneers of most States took a finely engraved picture of Sir Robert of the States have done. I have something Peel, with all its parts perfect, to an engraver, and to say about this thing; I have some right had the head taken out and his own inserted. Shall here." But the gentleman from Broome says, we take this picture of oppression that has been "You have no rights, your rights rest in society." held up to the world for six thousand years, and That hardy pioneer will reply to the gentleman cut ont the head of Sir Robert Peel? No; cut out from Broome. "I was here before society was. the head of royalty and put in the head of society, I have seen the day when I was the only man in and still hold this picture up as a terror to our chil- this broad domain; I had rights then; I have dren, or to the admiration of our children. Our agreed to let my neighbors have just the same government did not originate in that way. It was rights that I have, but I was here before society no bastard Norman tyrant that originated our was here. The pilgrim fathers were in New That is the Amerigovernment. I do not know the origin of the England before society was. gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand], but my opinion can principle of government. We have not done is, that if the gentleman will reflect back, he will what the man did in regard to the portrait of Sir reach the day when his blood, some portion of it Robert Peel; we have not taken the old picture at least, was sitting down in the cabin of a of tyranny--and oppression and cut out the name of little ship off the shores of New England, sovereign, cut out the name of prince, cut out the where there was no society except our Indian doctrine of divine right of kings, and put in the brethren, who are now pretty nearly extinct, in the divine right of society. Sir, there is a moral right, far West, and consulting there as to what should and a moral wrong; whether it be right to say it be the government of that people when they landed or not; whether it be reasonable or not: whether upon the shores of this country, and resolving it be republican or not. that, as far as possible, they would be governed talk about sovereignty - talk about society. by the rules laid down in the Word of God, until In the discussion between the plain man and they had time for further discussion. Suppose the philosopher, the philosopher wound up the the gentleman from Broome [Mr. Hand] had been plain man in the argument, and showed there; suppose that in that little cabin his fine conclusively there was no such thing as presence had been found, and he had frowned motion. What did the plain man do? He just upon them and told them that their very talk was rose up and walked. And while theorists are preabsurd; that society had the right to regulate that tending and contending here that men have no government; that they had none. 'You, rights, we form twenty-four governments, and John Robinson; you, Miles Standish; you, John if that will not be enough, and the land Alden, it is nothing to you; you have no rights. will hold out, we will form twenty-four It is society that is to govern Massachusetts and more, by common consent, where each man the colony of Plymouth. Society must do it. You has an equal right in the formation of that right." divine society; Let me suppose another case. government. The people of this country ought not to be mis- man was before society. God made man; man taken on this subject. We are a government made society; men have made governments, and making people. We started, at the close of the all these divine governments that oppressed the revolution in this country, upon this experiment world in ancient times and modern times, were of government with but thirteen sovereign States; the mere work of man's hand-the work of We have now thirty-seven. Every one of them violence. Our government does not rest upon has been formed how? By society? Every one violence. It rests upon the common consent. It of the twenty-four has been formed by the con- is too late in the day to hold up any man as have no There What if all the writers is no advocating an absurd doctrine, who contends that | politics, I have looked on him not only as an there is such a thing as human rights; who con- honest statesman but as a most excellent gentletends that any government has no right to oppress man in public and private life. Had he been its citizens and deprive them of the exercise of alone the representative of that great party, I their natural rights which God has given them, should take every word he utters as gospel; but, unless those natural rights have been forfeited. sir, he was but one man in all that body of men, Now, sir, in regard to the colored man in particular, and we must judge from what we saw and what because this was the necessary foundation of we heard; and if I misrepresent, I do it from the discussion of that question; the gentleman impressions which I gained at that day, and from Kings [Mr. Murphy] says that the people of which certainly will never be effaced from my the State are evidently opposed to allowing the memory; and I confess now when I have seen at right of suffrage to colored men. Does that any time since 1855 gentlemen either in public make any odds with our action? I do not concede assemblies or out of them, maintaining the Caththe fact. We have lived a great while since 1846, olic faith, and struggling to exclude the colored and although a few who held up the doctrine of ex-race from the right of suffrage, I have felt a tending suffrage to colored men in 1848, have degree of wonder that they, of all men, should gone back, the people with whom they live have not be touched with a feeling for the disability not. The people of this State have been march- that rests upon the black man. Now sir, I ing forward since 1846 up to a higher standard, will continue my argument, and ask, if the a purer faith upon that subject. But, sir, let me vote of 1855 had been cast in 1866, would we suppose a case. Should we for a moment tolerate be justified in sending down a Constitution to the the idea that if the vote in 1855 had been cast last people, which proposed the disfranchisement of fall, it would be right for us to say that men pro- all the men holding to the Catholic faith in the fessing the Catholic faith should not be permitted to State of New York? If my doctrine be heretical vote. Such was the verdict, as I read it, as the vote it gives me an immense advantage. I have a showed in 1855. No, sir, the men that held the much larger brotherhood than my friends who doctrine that men had rights in 1855, and the men have different views on this subject. I look upon who hold now the doctrine that men have rights, a man who happens to be situated a little differno sooner put their handsently from myself as my brother, as I have to, recognizing this principle, as a man possessing the same rights that I possess. I know he has the same destiny, I know that he has the same origin. Although a Protestant myself of the straightest sect, I can recognize a man of Catholic faith as my brother, entitled to all the rights I possess. Although it has happened in the providence of God, that I have inherited from some stock of my ancestors, a light complexion, I can take into brotherhood all my brethren whether they claim to be of the Caucasian race, or not, and who have a complexion a little darker than myself. They are all my brethren. They have the same rights that I have A respected friend of mine, who was a democrat with me in 1846, and who holds to the democratic faith now-and who I see before me, said on that occasion, when he and I were brother democrats together and both voted to extend suf frage to the colored man; "I will not stand up before my God, and deny to any man a right which I claim for myself." My friendship has been great for that man, and if I see a spot for the moment on his fair escutcheon I shall always remember what there is lying below it a substratum of principle pure and brotherly. Mr. E. BROOKS—Will the gentleman allow me to interrupt him for a moment? I wish to say, as having some knowledge of the vote of 1855 and of the popular sentiment of that day, that the gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend] is not warranted in drawing any such conclusion from that vote, and that there was never any party in this State to the best of my knowledge and belief, that ever proposed the disfranchisement of any men on account of their religious faith. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I know that that has been freqently asserted, but as far as that doctrine is concerned, I am putting myself in an attitude of that plain man I referred to some time ago, who after being convinced or convicted by a philosopher that there was no such thing as motion, set himself to walking. I participated in the struggles that day. I listened to the discussions of public speakers, and I saw what was done as far as it could be done in the State of New York. I occasionally took a look into the newspapers published in the city of New York, and I think in a paper called the New York Express, I read articles against the Catholic population of this State. If I understand the tendencies of the party holding these sentiments here in the State of New York, it was as I have described-certainly in the State of Massachusetts they went forward Mr. E. BROOKS—I wish to say to the gentleman [Mr. M. I. Townsend] that he is mistaken when he refers to the journal which he has named, or when he refers to what was the object of the powerful political party in the State he refers to, and that he misrepresents, unintentionally, I believe, was the doctrine of that party at Mr. GERRY-Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? I would like to ask the gentleman, whether in regard to his African brother, he is disposed to favor the intermarriage of the races, and social equality? Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I have some trouble on that subject [laughter], and for this reason: the posterity of such unions are placed in a most uncomfortable position-a most uncomfortable position. [Laughter]. I came from a State, that Mr. M.I. TOWNSEND-I have the utmost defer- was proud to call its great democrat, who first held ence for the gentleman [Mr. E. Brooks] who has a prominent position, by the name of my friend just sat down. I had at that day occasion to know who has just interrupted me [Mr. Gerry], and that gentleman, and, although we differed in in that State, neither then nor now, have we that time. ever had any jealousy of the negro [laughter]; | wrongs done him, he never forgives the wrongs he does to others. So far as this matter is concerned, and neither his ancestors nor mine have ever felt any fear that, in a fair contest, the negro would there is no man upon this floor, nor in this State, of get the advantage in the race of life! [Great laugh- white origin, who does not feel that the black man ter.] I wish to say another word to my friend [Mr. came from the hand of the same God that he did. Gerry]. I said I was opposed to the mingling of There is not a man in society but knows the black the races, particularly in regard to its effect on man has not only the same origin, but the same posterity in case of the intermarriage of destiny, and that it is worldly circumstances the races. I will say to my friend [Mr. which has made their destinies to differ. If a man Gerry] another thing: I am opposed to that illicit has looked at all into the history of the world, concubinage, practiced at the South by that party, he knows that the light-haired Teuton, as light as to which my friend belongs, and which has scattered himself, is the full brother of the Brahmin, with a black and white posterity over the Southern red hair, white complexion and light eyes, in the States, until any field of the so-called African Himalaya mountains, and is the full brother of population, looks like a race of what are called the Brahmin of South Hindostan, as black as the ace skunk-blackbirds. [Laughter.] Sir, there is no of spades. The gentleman knows that the Brahdanger of the intermingling of the race by a man min of South India is talking the same language who respects his own blood. There are those who as we of boasted Saxon blood are talking tohold that the colored race are inferior to the day, the Sanscrit being the mother of both tongues; white race; there are those who hold the colored or if he does not know it, he had better race to be a sort of higher order of animals, and they read up. I know that men get up theories to the are the men who mingle their blood with this same contrary of this idea of human brotherhood. It inferior race, leaving the posterity to make their is to save the necessity of these theories, that way in the world as best they can since emancipa- I would have this principle established. It is said tion, and who before that day sold not only their that we are not of the same race-not of the own children, but the mothers who bore same blood. Why? Because, they say, the them. I hope the gentleman [Mr. Gerry] union of the black and the white produces a disconsiders himself answered. Now, sir, I eased animal, and they soon expire. This doctrine am opposed to the proposition of the has been a favorite doctrine. It is said they do not gentleman from Kings [Mr. Murphy] for multiply beyond the first multiplication, and that another reason, you cannot permanently do injus- they are short lived. That would be proclaimed in a tice to any people without degrading the majority lecture-room in New Orleans, and published which works that injustice. And as my friend in the newspapers and preached in the pulpit, [Mr. Wakeman] spoke of me the other day as and the men assenting to it walked out to the "venerable gentleman from Rensselaer," I will the auction-block and paid two hundred dolsay I have seen something of the political action lars more for a negro half white and half of this State, and I think I do no injustice to the black, of the age of forty for a field hand campaign of 1855, when I say, I consider that than he would for a full black and simply because campaign, and the raid upon the Catholic popula- he was a "diseased animal" and could not pertion of this State connected with it, as the most petuate the race. That negroes were to be of a demoralizing political storm that has ever swept different race, the people were convinced in that over the State of New York. It was most lecture room And you would find the same man, utterly demoralizing; and it was so because it pro- with convictions thus strong, having a family raised posed to do a wrong to the Catholic people. And by a Caucasian in a house in one street, and how did they justify it? By charging everything another family by a quadroon in another street. that was wrong, whether true or false, upon the The doctrine now is a sort of literary doctrine at Catholics of this country or other countries through- times. And yet Alexander Dumas pere is not out the world. It was the staple of discussion in more celebrated than Alexander Dumas fils, the the political mind, that those people were im- father an octoroon, and the son a still further submoral, that they were dishonest, that they were stitution of colors. I believe that Fred. Douglass ridden by their priests, and that under the direc- has not an unhealthy family. Sir, nobody betion of their priests they violated every obliga- lieves this doctrine. It is mere pretenso. I tion, social, moral, and political, until, sir, the propose to talk rather freely on this subject. I feeling thus engendered, ripened, in Louisville, into want to dispel some of these illusions. A man says a mob which proposed to exterminate the Cath- "I have seen a great many colored people having olic population, and under which the streets white blood in them who are scrofulous." Ahl of St. Louis ran with blood. And, sir, I you have, "and," he asks, "how could that would submit it to the older Democrats of be unless the race is unhealthy ?" I will tell this Convention, if they believe that the moral you how that came about. It came from the tone of the Democrat party of the State of New physical character and condition of the father York has been in any way improved by the cease- who mixed his blood with the black woman ; less tirade of abuse upon the helpless negroes, that for until a man had run his blood and his have prevailed in their political discussions since system and moral sympathies down, he would the year 1848? Has the moral tone, or the moral not risk the raising of posterity by the mixing of status of the Democratic party, been improved by black blood and white, and thus the mulatto has it? No, sir, if we do a man a wrong, we have the accumulated diseases of the father. But now got to charge evil upon that man to justify us in all things are charged, forsooth, to the colored doing it. It is an old adage, and one that should race. What exterminated the Indians? Not the not be forgotten, that, although a man may forgive bullet; not the tomahawk; for even the settlers i, the city of New York which are completely under the control of the possessors of power; by five thousand in the city of Brooklyn; by from five to eight hundred in the city of Albany, and by three hundred in the city of Troy, to go no further west. I think at that time the gentleman [Mr. Hand] and his constituents would begin to come to the conclusion that it would be better to consider for a moment the strange doctrines preached by that strange man from Rensselaer, and see if there were not something in it. I wish to call the attention of the majority of this Convention to a remark which dropped from the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Barnard]. I thank him for it, and it used the tomahawk as well as the Indians; but | teen hundred majority in the direction in which he some of these vile diseases that are scattered votes. When he gets through with the people through the Indian tribes by the miserable whites in this county, who have voted upon their underwho have mixed their blood with theirs. But standing and their convictions, and upon their again, sir, we are told that the physical formation of free will, he is met by fifteen thousand votes in the black race is such that they cannot be identical with the white. People who advocate the restriction of the rights of the blacks feel they must give a reason for it. They feel the truth of the doctrine that I have laid down. Every man feels and knows that every other man has a natural right. They tell us there are physiologists who have discovered that there are certain physiological differences-that in the human system there is a bony substance in a particular a particular part of the white man, where there is a cartilage in the same part of the colored man. It is not long since, to satisfy the behests of slavery that Agassiz went to Charleston to work out the doctrine which was so satisfactory to a people who had so long flour-is a text that perhaps we need not preach from; ished and prospered upon the wrong they had done but it is a text upon which we should reflect. the black race. And yet it is found that the great That gentleman, in his frankness, told us that naturalist made a fatal mistake that will stick to those who were aided by the present state of him as long as he lives. I have been betrayed things would of course resist any change in the into an incidental discussion on this subject Constitution. Did not you think so, Mr. Chairmore general than I intended, but do not man, when the gentleman had concluded his intend to apologize for it to the committee. I speech yesterday? It will not be the men feel as though it was due to the subject and due that control the five thousand votes, it will to myself. I now desire for a few moments, to not be the men that control the fifteen thoucall the attention of the majority of this Con- sand votes who are prepared to give up the vention to another subject under consideration. powers they possess and place themselves upon I said in the course of my remarks, when a footing of equality with the rest of the State. once before on the floor, since we have been I have used the term "majority" in this Convenin Committee of the Whole, that I saw no tion. Am I right in doing so? One, perhaps, moral wrong in denying the right of suffrage says "no." I yesterday read in a paper called the to the pauper who lived upon the public Albany Argus (which a delegate in this body has taxes of the State. I put it upon this ground, certainly something to do with, whom I see on that the pauper who is supported by public the other side of the house), an article in which taxation was in the tutelage and under the con- this doctrine was held, that the Democratic party trol of the dispenser of the taxes devoted to his were not responsible for the frauds and corrup support. He placed himself in an attitude where tions of the last Legislature, because the Republi he was not a free man. Now, sir, I have no cans had a majority in either body. He did not stop right to complain if the majority of this Conven- to discuss the question whether his political friends tion shall differ with me on that subject, because, were responsible, whether some of them had been under my rule, we not only have in this Con-sharing, but he very properly carried the arguvention, but out of it, a most perfect ment out to the people, that the majority of that right of private judgment and action. But House were responsible for its action. When the I wish for a moment to call the attention work of this Convention shall have been done, we of my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand], and the may run off on this hobby, or on that hobby or the committee, to this one consideration in relation to other, but the people of this State will hold the the dispensers of relief to the out-door poor, to majority of this Convention responsible for its say nothing about those in the almshouse, as it has action. We are not even tied up as the gentleman been stated on this floor, that in the city of New from Suffolk proposed to tie us up yesterday. York, those persons have the power of aiding and He proposed to deprive us of certain appendrefusing aid to not less than 15,000 at a time. I ages, that a certain fox was deprived of, to render will estimate, for I have no estimate from others, the majority powerless here by a rule of the that there are 5,000 in the city of Brooklyn. I Convention, which would prevent our taking will estimate, for there is no estimate by action. The responsibility of whatever is done others, that there are from five five to eight in this assembly, rests upon the majority of hundred in the city of Albany. I will estimate, this house, and if we go out to our constituupon my own knowledge, that they will amount to from three to five hundred in the city of Troy. Now sir, when the election comes I have no doubt that my friend from Broome [Mr. Hand], like a good citizen,goes out into the towns of his county, and discusses political questions, and so far as I know he has always made the people of that county or a majority of them think with him. He can give from eight hundred to a thousand or fif ents denying, halfway, to the colored man, those rights that every member of the Republican party acknowledges he possesses, and to which every member of the minority here possesses, the people of this State will hold us responsible. If we go out from here with a Constitution so framed, that the city of New York, the city of Brooklyn, the city of Albany and the city of Troy can overwhelm the independent voters of this |