The PRESIDENT-The Chair will announce that there is a pending question already with regard to this matter. It is the resolution of Mr. Sherman, which was offered yesterday.

Mr. E. BROOKS-I move as an amendment to strike out from the report all which refers to the previous question.

Mr. SMITH-That was the amendment I was about to offer.

The PRESIDENT-The Chair submits whether this amendment is hardly germane 'to the resolution from the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman].

as one of the minority dissented. My colleague, | session, it is better not to engraft upon our rules also, in the minority, was absent, and therefore the order for the previous question. gave no opinion upon the subject. I will Mr. SMITH-I offer the following resolution,— state, sir, very briefly, my reasons for dissenting from the report in this particular. I do not think it becoming in a State Convention to adopt the previous question, the effect of which is to cut off all debate and to stop deliberation and determination in a becoming manner upon various propositions which may be before this body. The previous question is unknown to bodies which are peculiarly of a deliberative character, like the Convention which is now assembled in this State. It is unknown in the State Senate; it is unknown to the United States Senate, and according to my best judgment, although adopted in a modified Mr. E. BROOKS-I should desire then to predegree in the Convention of 1846, it has been very sent it in the form of a minority report to the rarely adopted in Conventions of so great import-resolution. ance as the one now assembled. If it be necessary Mr. SHERMAN-I would suggest that we by-and-by to adopt the previous question, I shall should first proceed with a consideration of the have no objection. The moment there is, on the rules in the manner I suggested yesterday, and part of the minority in this body, any undue dis- the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks,] can position to abuse the freedom of speech, or the move his amendment when the rule is reached freedom of debate, by indulgence in discussion in which relates to the previous question, and at the order to consume time, I shall be, as one of same time, the amendment of the gentleman from the committee, and as one of the members of this Fulton [Mr. Smith,] can be properly moved. body very ready to adopt the most stringent rules Mr. SMITH-There would be no objection is to prevent such abuse. At a later period of this that, if it were not that the previous question to session it may be becoming to adopt such a rule. incorporated into several of these rules which But there are other rules of great importance would make it necessary to offer three or four, or trenching upon debate, and which control it. In half a dozen different amendments, whereas one the first place, we may adopt the half hour or the amendment would cover the whole ground, and if quarter hour rule, or even limit the discussion to satisfactory to the Convention, it would eliminate the space of five or ten minutes_by-and-by. In the next place it will be discovered, as these rules are read, that they are of the most rigid and stringent character, and as they will be administered by the presiding officer of this body, it will be almost impossible to depart from those strict technicalities, which belong to the immediate subjects which are under consideration. Therefore, I hope at the present stage of this proceeding there will be an indisposition on the part of the majority to adopt this rigid rule. All parliamentary experience has shown this fact, that, whenever there is a disposition to abuse the freedom of speech, it is in the power of the preThe PRESIDENT-The Chair considers that siding officer, or of any member of the body, to the pending question is that of the gentleman call the member to order, and to confine him from Oneida [Mr. Sherman] and he can only strictly and technically to the subject under consid-receive an amendment to that resolution. eration. Now, sir, as I have said already, in the higher tribunals and deliberative bodies, no such question is known. Whenever in the Senate of the United States, whenever in the British Parliament, or whenever in the State Senate, there is a disposition to crowd the question under discussion, by discussing irrelevant matters, the majority of the body, either through the presiding officer, or any member, can call the member to order, and adopt a rule like this, for instance :— to take the question upon a certain hour of a certain day, or to limit the discussion to fif teen or twenty minutes, as the case may be. Sir, the great idea of a body of this kind, is the freedom of speech-freedom of deliberation; and, in order that we may arrive at wise conclusions upon subjects that may be discussed in this body, it seems at least, in this early period of the

the previous question from the whole report.

Mr. GRAVES-Since the adjournment of the Convention yesterday, I have examined with some attention the rules adopted by the Conven tion of 1821. They are concise in their language, and practical in their operation, and I see no good reason why they could not be with propriety adopted for the control of the deliberations of this Convention. For that purpose I offer the following resolution, accompanying it with the proceedings of the Convention of 1821, from which the rules may be read if desired by this Convention.

Mr. RATHBUN-Is not the question whether the Convention will now proceed to consider the report of the Committee on rules?

The PRESIDENT-Yes, and the manner in which they are to be taken up.

Mr. RATHBUN-Then I suppose the only amendment is as to whether we will take up these rules and consider them.

The PRESIDENT-Does the gentleman from Richmond, [Mr. E. Brooks] offer any amendment, or does he offer a minority report?

Mr. E. BROOKS-Yes, sir; I offer it as a minority report, and therefore I move to strike out all in the report that refers to the previous question.

The PRESIDENT-The entry will be made upon the journal, that the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] makes a minority report;

and the question now is upon adopting the majority | propose. The first sentence of rule 3 is "The report.

MR. SHERMAN-I do not see how an omission can be regarded as anything but an error; Mr. ROGERS demanded the ayes and noes. therefore, the first amendment seems to me entireNot a sufficient number seconding the call the ly unnecessary. In regard to the order of busiayes and nces were not ordered. The question ness-"messages from the Governor," I will state was then put upon the resolution of the gentleman from Oneida, [Mr. Sherman,] as follows:

Mr. GREELEY-I would suggest that the Secretary read until he come to a rule to which some-of Mr. Robertson, and they were declared to be lost. body objects.

made during the call of the roll. There will be, may ask to be excused when his name is called. probably, fewer requests if made before the roll In bodies of this size members may be careless, call. At that time many members might and before the roll call is commenced many memask to be excused, while their names were being bers will not know what the question is and before called, who would not do it previous to that time. their name is called they will have ascertained This rule is in accordance with the practice which and may have reasons why they desire to be exhas prevailed for a number of years in the Assem-cused; and it is when their names are called in bly of this State, and that is the only recommend- the roll that they should have the right, it seems ation for its adoption. My own personal choice to me, to briefly state their reasons for asking to would be to see it stricken out altogether. be excused. I hope, therefore, the motion of the

prevail.

The Secretary then read the amendment of Mr. Alvord as follows:

"Strike out the words 'before the roll call shall be commenced,' and insert in lieu thereof the words 'when his name is called on the roll.'

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared to be adopted.

Mr. ALVORD-I am not aware that the state- gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that the ment last made by the gentleman is correct. It is rule may be amended so as to be substantially the not so far as regards my own experience as presid-same as the 7th rule of Assembly of last year will ing officer of the Assembly and as a member of it goes. I never had any other rule before me for my action, except that a person was entitled, on the call to give reasons for the excuse, if he should ask for it when his name was reached upon the roll call. For instance, if a person should be out when the roll call was commenced, and should stay but a moment, when he returns he would find himself under the rule announced, bound to vote. He would have no time to make his excuse: or his attention may be called to another direction upon the announcement of the roll call. It seems to me it will take no more time when the roll is being called, when the person's name is reached, to make the excuse than it would at any other time. I, therefore, move as an amendment to restore the rule as it is in the Assembly, by striking out the word "before."

Mr. DEVELIN-I would ask the Chairman of the Committee on Rules whether the time which a person might occupy to give an excuse was not limited by the Assembly rule. Under this rule a person might speak all day giving an excuse. Five minutes was the rule at the last session.

Mr. SHERMAN-There was in the Assembly rule a limit of five minutes, and we have provided for the same thing in a somewhat different way. This rule provides that he shall state concisely, without argument, his excuse. I do not see how any member can occupy a whole day in stating concisely, and without argument, his request to be excused from voting.

Mr. ALVORD offered the further additional amendment: add at the end thereof the following: "But he shall not use for such purpose more than five minntes of time." Which was adopted.

Mr. SHERMAN-I think this rule may be still further improved by striking it out altogether. I make that motion.

Mr. GOULD-What will be the effect of that rule? I should like to understand it? It is plain to me that a member cannot be excused from voting if this rule is stricken out. If this is so I hope it will not be stricken out.

Mr. ARCHER-The effect of striking out that rule will be to leave the rules as they were under the old parliamentary practice, by which every member was obliged to vote who was within the bar of the house when the question was stated by the Chair, unless he was personally interested in the result of the action. That has always been the rule so far as my acquaintance extends, until within a few years last past, and I have seen no good resulting from the adoption of this rule. On the contrary, I have seen much valuable time wasted in calling the roll and hearing excuses under this rule.

Mr. VEEDER-I would call the attention of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], who offers this motion to strike out the 7th rule, that that would be inconsistent with the provisions of the 6th rule, which provides that a member shall vote unless he be excused or be personally interested in the question. If there be power in the Convention to excuse a member from voting, there certainly should be some provision when he can make his excuse, and how much time he may be allowed to occupy in presenting that excuse.

Mr. WEED-By rule 7 of the Assembly of last year, from which this is copied, a person could, when his name was called, ask to be excused and then state his reasons. I imagine that the committee upon rules omitted to state-perhaps they may have done so-the words that allowed him to make the explanation at the time his name was called, and with the permission of the Convention I will read the fore part of the rule, showing what words are out: "Any member requesting to be excused from voting, may make, when his name is called, or immediately after the roll shall have been called, and before the result shall be announced, a brief statement of the reasons for making such request, not exceeding five minutes." It seems to me that this rule should be limited to briefly stating the facts-stating the reasons. As long as he states facts and not arguments Mr. VEEDER-I understand the motion to be under this rule he may talk half of the day, if to strike out the rule. I do not think it is in order they are reasons why he asks to be excused to make a motion to amend it.

Mr. SHERMAN-If my motion should be adopted it would be necessary to go back to the sixth rule and strike out the word "excuse" there. Mr. LAPHAM-I offer the following amendment.

It seems to me the position taken by the gentleman The PRESIDENT-In the opinion of the Chair from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] is proper that a person it takes precedence.

The Secretary then read the amendment of Mr. | debate. The question is new to me. I come in Lapham as follows: at the close of the debate. Then, under this

Any member requesting to be excused from substitute if it is adopted, I am asked to say voting, may make, when his name is called, or immediately after the roll shall have been called, and before the result shall have been announced, a brief statement of the reasons for making such request, not exceeding five minutes in time, and the question shall then be taken without debate, and such request shall not be withdrawn without the unanimous consent of the Convention."

Mr. TILDEN-It seems to me quite clear that the Assembly rule is much better than any of the amendments that have been proposed. It is simple, distinct, well-expressed and in conformity to all the recent practice of legislative bodies. I hope this amendment will be adopted.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Lapham and it was declared carried.

Mr. GREELEY-I move this as a substitute, in accordance with the remarks of the gentleman from Wayne, [Mr. Archer] which impressed me as exceedingly forcible.

under which King Benzonian-speak or die!I am unwilling that any vote of mine-or vote of any gentleman here, should be dictated by mere leadership, or by any party considerations. I wish my vote to be intelligent; and if I have not heard an argument and do not understand the subject I will not vote, and the consequence must be, under the rule, that the sergeant-at-arms, I suppose, will take me into custody.

Mr. LOEW-I observe that a great portion of the substitute offered by the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], is already incorporated in the sixth rule, "Every member who shall be within the bar of the Convention when a question shall be stated from the Chair, shall vote thereon unless he be excused or be personally interested in the question."

Mr. VAN CAMPEN offered the following amendment to the amendment offered by Mr. Greeley.

"No member present in the Convention when Insert after the word "voted" the following: the yeas and nays are ordered on any ques-" And that the doors and windows of the Chamtion shall leave the house till he shall have voted, and no member so present shall be excused from voting, unless he be personally interested in the decision.

I think that is the right rule, that every member shall vote who is here; that he shall not run out and shall not be excused. It will save time and give us a full vote. I ask this to be substituted for the rule as it now stands.

4

ber be closed by the Sergeant-at-Arms, and the members of the Convention be kept in close custody whenever the yeas and nays are ordered, and until the call of the roll be completed." [Laughter].

The question being put on the resolution of Mr. Van Campen, it was declared to be lost.

Mr. GREELEY-With very great respect for the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Clinton,] who has Mr. E. A. BROWN-I ask for the experience made the objection to this rule, it seems to me of parliamentarians, if it be true as a principle of that he has proposed to make the neglect of one parliamentary law as stated by the gentleman duty the justification for the neglect of another from Wayne [Mr. Archer], that a legislative body duty. We are here to listen to debates. This is has not the power, if a member asks to be ex- a part of our duty. The gentleman says: "I cused from voting to exercise that power, and have not heard the debate, and therefore, having grant such excuse? It seems to me that it must refused or neglected to perform one duty, I ask be inherent in such a body as this, and any legis- that I may be allowed to neglect another." I lative body, to excuse for any cause any of its think it is the duty of gentlemen to be here and members from voting upon any question. And to hear debates on the question. It is the old parthe object of such rule must be to limit debates liamentary rule, that gentlemen ought to vote, that may arise during the call of the roll and the and I think that we ought to abide by it. taking of the vote, and prevent debates upon that question of excuse by confining persons asking to be excused to a simple statement of the reasons upon which the request is based. So that if we have not that rule, if I am correct in my supposition, whenever a member asks to be excused, the debate is open to every member, and without limit any more than it is upon any other question; and the purpose of the rule must be, and the benefits growing out of it must be expected to limit such debate, and to restrict such discussion. I am in favor of substituting the Assembly rules.

Mr. CLINTON-That may be true, yet there are a great variety of duties which are incumbent upon ns. We are not merely here as members of the Convention; we have divers other relations. There are duties even superior to my duty to be present here to listen to whatever may fall from the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley], or any other gentleman who has the ability to enlighten me. I may have a friend who is sick; an accident may happen to my wife, or something may require me to be absent during the debate, and yet permit me to come in at the close of it. It does not follow that I contemplate any neglect of my duty.

Mr. CLINTON—Beyond the excuse of interest in the question pending before the Convention, Mr. HALE--I hope the amendment of the gentleI can imagine one case in which it would be man from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] will not contrary to my conscience to vote. I wish that prevail. I submit that it is in violation of that liberty preserved. I wish that every vote which amendment of the Constitution of the United I, or any other member may give, shall be con- States, the existence of which the gentleman from scientiously given, and with a knowledge of what Westchester is undoubtedly aware, which prohe is doing. Now, the substitute of the gentleman vides that neither slavery nor involuntary servifrom Westchester, [Mr. Greeley] as I regard it, tude, except as a punishment for crime, shall puts a man in this position: I have not heard albe permitted in this country. I do not propose

that any rule shall be adopted by which members | found nothing in the rules authorizing it, and my of this Convention shall be held in involuntary object in offering this rule to be incorporated, is servitude during the time the roll is being called. to prevent this practice of closing the doors Mr. FULLER-I rise to a question of order. against members. I may be in error, but I wish The 6th rule has already been adopted in the Con- to put this matter to the test of the vote of the vention. The amendment of the gentleman from Convention. Westchester [Mr. Greeley] virtually repeals that rule, and that cannot be done except by reconsideration of the vote by which that rule was adopted.

Mr. BERGEN-It refers to the privileges of members, and it is held to be one of the privileges of members to enter this hall unless excluded by The PRESIDENT-On further consideration the rules. The doors may be closed upon a call the chair is of the opinion that the motion of the of the House, as it may be done here. But gentleman from New York [Mr. Rogers,] is hardly I hold it to be the privilege of a member to come pertinent, in view of the present state of the ques-in at any time unless excluded by the rules. tion.