of the canals is an important financial question. How could the Committee on Finance give proper and comprehensive recommendations in regard to the expenditures and taxation of the State, without they had in their purview the whole financial interests of the State? It seems to me, therefore, that the division made by the committee could not be improved. I shall be compelled to vote against this amendment, and all others that are made to this section. Mr. LEE-I have always been accustomed to] State? It is well known that the canal interest defer very greatly to the opinion of the eminent is a very large interest, and the question before the chairman of the Committee of Sixteen, and espe- Convention of the improvement and enlargement cially would I defer, sustained as he is by all his colleagues; yet, sir, it is not strange, viewing this subject from different standpoints of view, that we should differ in opinion as to the propriety of the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch]. I cannot see, myself, in what way the amendment, if adopted, is to prejudice this question, and it does seem to me, sir, however it may be considered by the committee having in charge the question of finances, it would be an entirely proper inquiry, and appropriate and very desirable that the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], should be sustained by this Convention. Mr. FULLER-I would like to enquire if the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], is adopted, it would preclude the adoption of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger.] The PRESIDENT — A further amendment may be offered. Mr. FULLER-That amendment would strike out the amendment now proposed to be inserted. The PRESIDENT-The Chair rules that the paragraph may be perfected as the Convention chooses, and then stricken out entirely, the effort being first to perfect it. Mr. DUGANNE-As I regard this in the light somewhat of a test question, and one which will probably foreshadow the action of this Convention upon very important interests of the State, I call for the ayes and noes upon the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch.] A sufficient number seconding the call for the ayes and noes they were ordered. Mr. TILDEN-It was the judgment of the Committee that whoever should be charged with the duty of considering what should be done with respect to the improvement of the Erie canal, would find all consideration of that subject futile, unless there could be considered also where the ways and means were to be obtained with which that enlargement was to be made. Equally futile would it be to attempt to regulate by Constitutional Mr. FULLER-I hope that the amendment of the provision the finances of the State, if that subject gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch,] wiil prevail. that includes the chief part of its revenues, and With all due deference to the chairman of the the chief part of its expenditures, is to be excluded Committee of Sixteen, it seems to me that the pro- from the consideration of that Committee. There position in their report is to send the question of is a unity on this subject, wholly incapable of disthe enlargement of the canals away from home. severance, without confusion and chaos in all your It is not merely a question of finance. It is the action upon the entire question. Sir, I apprehend enlargement and improvement of the canals, al- that the effort to make any division of this subthough the subject of finance is involved in the ject may arise from failing to consider how question. But there are other great interests of different is our situation and method of action on the State involved in it also. It is the most im- the subject from that of the Legislature. The portant subject I apprehend to come up before Legislature attempts to determine with some this body. It is one that entitles it to a separate degree of detail what particular improvements committee who may consider it in all its bearings, shall be made in respect to the public works. in all its aspects, in its financial aspects among It, therefore, has an organization adapted to that others, and not in that aspect exclusively. I shall purpose. This Convention in framing the fundatherefore vote for the amendment of the gentle-mental law of the State, undertakes to do nothing man from Erie [Mr. Hatch], and if that amend-of that kind. It will simply make a provision in ment is adopted, I then hope and trust that the Constitution whereby these objects can be the proposition of the gentleman from Ontario carried out. It will make financial provisions ap[Mr. Folger], will be brought forward and that it will be adopted and supersede the whole. I think the subject of the enlargement of the canals is one which is entitled to a separate committee by itself. plicable to this subject matter. The difference in its duty prescribes a difference in the mode of reference and consideration. Why, sir, how is it possible to separate income and expenditure—to separate the subject of the revenues of the State Mr. OPDYKE-I hope the amendment will not and its means of applying them to this purpose? prevail. I think the arrangement made by the I confess it seems to me that the Convention will inCommittee of Sixteen in this division in regard to volve itself in inextricablo and endless confusion, the canals is altogether proper and judicious. unless the entire subject of the ways and means, The Committee on Finance will be expected to and the subjects to which those ways and means present to this Convention recommendations for are to be applied, are united in the consideration the action of the Convention in respect to the of one committee, and treated as one entire and in finances of the State, with regard to the debt of divisible subject. If, sir, I were to look back the State, its expenditures, and, in fact, in refer- through the constitutional action and legislative ence to every aspect of the question. I would action of the last twenty years at our municilike to enquire how the Committee could be ex-palities, and inquire what it is that has made pected to make a reccommendation which would them, as is the case in the city of New York, in be of value, unless they had within their purview stead of being a government, simply an organized all the subjects referring to the finances of the chaos, if I may use such an expression, I should L say it is because often in our Legislature we is, that the Convention is to adopt whatever the have attempted to dissever the disbursing power committees may report, without attempting to adfrom the power which provides the ways and just differences in the reports. Another fallacy means. It is fundamental in all human powers, is, that the report of the Committee of Sixteen that with the power which provides the ways and already provides for what the gentleman says, canmeans should exist the power which makes the not be done-that is, separating a general subject. expenditures. Sir, you cannot organize the family What is the subject of the care and manageon any other basis. You cannot organize any of ment of the canals, but an inquiry of the cost and these great corporate bodies that act so important management-an inquiry as to what means are a part in our public affairs on any other basis; and at the disposition of the Legislature, or to be the attempt to organize a government on that basis, derived by taxation for their care and manageto make those officers independent powers in the ment. It is an inquiry which involves the ascerState will result in what the people of this State taining of what are those means, what the canals now experience-a confusion of expenditure, and yield, what are the necessities for their improvea confusion and redundance of taxation. Sir, there ment, how much justice and good faith, to the must be unity, and there must be supremacy on people of this State and to the people of other the part of those who provide the ways and means, States, require that we should raise by direct taxand those who expend them. This subject is in-ation, if you choose to use that word. And trinsically and necessarily financial. I do not another inquiry after that, is to ascertain how great think, therefore, that it is possible to make any shall be the body of officers-how numerous the such disseverance without the greatest possible subordinate officials who shall be scattered along mischief in the deliberations of this Convention. the canal to manage it. Further than that, is the Mr. FOLGER-With deference to the honorable enquiry in reference to the comparative costs of gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden] who has different systems of management-whether it shall just taken his seat, I conceive that his argument be done by the contract system or whether it shall is based upon three fallacies. In the first place, be done under the superintendent system, or one would suppose, from his remarks, that this whether we shall have at the Capital one supreme was a body which was dealing with details instead head over the canals who shall be responsible of general principles. What we have to do is to for the conduct of every subordinate upon lay foundations, and not to build superstructures. it and accountable for all detail. If the idea We deal with general principles. What shall be, for of the gentleman be correct that any question ininstance, the general method in which the taxation volving the raising of money and its expenditure, of this State shall be managed? To what general even upon the canals, cannot be separated from objects shall it be applied and from what general the idea of finances and taxation, then the report sources shall it be derived? That is a general of the Committee is faulty in that respect. principle upon which the Committee on Finance Subdivision No. 10 should come out entirely, are to use their powers, deliberate and report for every body knows, who is at all familiar with their results. So with the Committee on Canals. the legislation of this State upon the subject of the They are to inquire into the whole vast subject of canals, that the care and management of them is the canal system of this State. They are to discover emphatically a question of the expenditure of and report its revenues, disclose its expenditures, money; a question of finance; a question of taxaand show the necessities, not only the necessities tion; a question of revenue. When you have reof this State, but the necessities of the far West, ferred to one Committee, No. 10; the question of which is dependent, to some extent, upon this the superintendance and management of the canals, State for commercial facilities. These two com- you have immediately put in their charge a subject mittees are to present to this body the results which will require them to report to this Convenof these general inquiries, and it is for this tion not only what shall be the system of managebody to make an adjustment and arrangement ment and who shall have the care and management of the whole subject, so that the report of one of the canals, but to consider and report in concommittee may be made to concur with the nection therewith from whence shall come the report of the other committee. If the Convention means for that care and management; whether from shall decide upon a system of enlargement the revenues of the canal itself or from the general and improvement, they may look to the fund of the State. So that I say, the argument report of the Finance Committee to get light of the gentleman, and I say it with great respect, upon the question of where the means are coming is built upon three fallacies, as I have already from to make the enlargement, if means are needed stated, and not the least is that the subject of the outside of the canal revenues, which I think will canals can be considered without also considering be found to be doubtful. So that we are the arbi- the questions of finance and taxation. The first ters and judges between the two committees. inquiry is, what do they yield? Do they yield a We are to be called upon to settle between con- surplus? If so, what shall be done with that surflicting reports, if they are to be conflicting, in plus? If they no not yield a surplus, then is the reference to the question of finance and the necessity for their maintenance or enlargement so taxation of the State, and the need of increased paramount and preponderating as to call upon this canal facilities. Thus, I say, that upon the State to direct that its Legislature shall provide subject of the canal system and the revenues means for the enlargement, by taxation or otherto be derived from the canals and the expendi- wise? How shall that debt be created? tures to be made for it, the argument of the gentle-shall that money be raised? When shall the debt man includes two fallacies. One is, that the Con- created be paid, &c., &c? All these details grow vention is to settle details of finance and the other immediately out of the first step toward a consid How eration of this subject of the canals; and any com- the Convention at this time, under the guise of a mittee which is charged with the consideration of mere parliamentary question, and as such it would the question of their care and management (with-hardly be worth the time that it consumed in its out the "improvement," as suggested by the gen-discussion, were it not that in point of fact it tleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch]-striking out even revives an old subject. We are called upon, Mr. the word improvement), as I have endeavored to President, principally, to attend to the matter of show, and I think I have shown will be required the revision of the Constitution, and in that to make financial consideration, and investigation purview only as far as the subject of the canals into the finances of this State and its resources. is specifically alluded to in the Constitution. I Mr. MURPHY—The gentleman from Ontario would desire to draw your attention to this [Mr. Folger] in stating that the gentleman from consideration, that in the Constitution, as amended New York Mr. Tilden] has fallen into fallacies, at the ssssion of the Legislature in which I had appears to me has fallen into one great error him- the honor of holding a seat in the upper House self. He argues his case upon the idea that the (following up the first constitutional plan for the question of the enlargement of the canals can be enlargement of the canals, since the adoption of considered by the committee now under considera- the Constitution of 1846, which I had the honor tion. Now, sir, I suppose it to be perfectly compe- to present), the question of the enlargement, is a tent for the committee that shall be appointed under simple finality. But it does not come within the this resolution to consider that question in all its scope and meaning of those who seek now to bearings upon the interests of the people of this make some other and further enlargement of the State, otherwise than as a financial question. I canals. If, sir, the proposition related, not only hope if this paragraph shall be adopted, the com- to the same subject-matter, but to the same result, mittee will be so constituted that the great in- I would say it would be unwise at this time, and terests which have been referred to by him and would object to a new distribution of the comby other gentlemen, will be considered by this mittees unless the Committee of Sixteen, who committee as well as the financial question in- have recommended such committees, should fail volved. Now, I differ from the honorable gentle- to satisfy us of the wisdom of their plan. But, man materially, in regard to the province of Mr. President, you perceive the parliamentary the second committee proposed here and difficulty as well as other gentlemen of this body. which we must consider. The province of You know perfectly well that if the recommendathat committee is to consider the manage- tion of the Committee of Sixteen is departed ment and care of the canals. It has refe- from, it is a virtual instruction to you that in rence particularly to the administration of the constituting the other commmittee, which is canals-whether, as he himself has said, we shall thus to have special charge of the subject of continue the contract system, or some other sys- enlargement, you are to give to that committee a tem-whether it shall be managed by elected offi- preponderance of the friends of the measure over cers or appointed officers, or how otherwise. These those who oppose it. You would be commisare the questions which are now agitating the sioned and called upon to do that work now in public mind, and which are the subject of legis-advance of all inquiries upon the subject, and lative consideration, and they demand from this you could not, it seems to me, pursue the same body special attention independent of the question liberal and enlightened course with which you of enlargement, or the question of the finances of started when you regarded all these subjects as the canals. True it is, that there can be no ad- fresh subjects for development, and constituted ministration of the canals without an expenditure your Committee of Sixteen as though there were of money. The keeping of them in repair will no other members of this Convention than those necessarily require the expenditure of money; but who represented the State at large, and all its that is only incidental-natural. We all under- interests at large. I cannot think that the stand that the canals cannot be carried on without gentleman from New York [Mr. Tilden] was appropriations without means, and that these guilty of any fallacy in stating that the subject appropriations and means are for the most part of the enlargement of the canals, or to use ascertainable from year to year almost with math- the milder phrase given to it by the gentleematical precision, and that the Committee on Fi- man from Erie [Mr. Hatch], their "improvement" nance can consider the great question committed to cannot at all be dissevered from the finances of them without being affected by this question as to the State, because that improvement or that enwhat the care and management of the canals may largement can only be effected by a large and cost. Now, if we pursue the course proposed in the continuous expenditure of money for several years substitute offered by the gentleman from Ontario to come, so that if you must look now into the [Mr. Folger], we may have two committees report- merits of this question which I would prefer to ing, one for a large expenditure for the canals, have postponed to a future day, you cannot fail and another for restricted provisions in regard to to take the question of fresh expenditure up in the means for the expenditures. I hope this connection with our existing debt, an embarConvention will see the necessity of leaving this rassment which prevails not only over the Committee on Finance and the revenues and ex- State, but in every town and county, and penditures of the State, possessed of the elements with every individual in the State. We are that are necessary for them to give a full and sat- told that the debt of the State is limited by a sum isfactory report, and that we will confine the other of perhaps fifty millions of dollars. We know committee simply to a consideration of the admin- that the aggregate of the debts of towns and istration and care of the canals. counties would be quoted at about four times that sum. We know that our share of the national Mr. CONGER-This question presents itself to debt, if distributed over the State of New York, Mr. HUTCHINS-I believe, in the discussion under the Constitution, in proportion to the popula- of this question so far, it has been admitted tion, would amount to several hundred milllions of by all that the arrangement made by the Comdollars, and if you come to consider the relation mittee of Sixteen is the best, under the circumwhich the City of New York bears, as the finan- stances, that could be presented to the Convention cial centre of the Union to this subject, you cannot for its adoption. Now, the question here is not fail to believe that a much larger proportion of whether the Committee provided for by paragraph the National indebtedness would fall on our number 10 may not be so amended as to incitizens as it must fall upon the capital represented clude the subject matter of the canals as well as in that city. Now, the simple fact is this, that their care and management, but the question in departing from the wise rule we have proposed which this Convention is to decide is, to which it to be established of appointing committees of in- should be referred as the most appropriate commitquiry, we are called upon to initiate a system, tee. Sir, I should as soon think of calling upon a by which, before the exact sum of that indebt-man to construct for me an expensive house, or edness which belongs to the State and its people make other improvements without knowing is counted up by your Finance Committee, you whether I had the money in my pocket or not are disregarding all your own convictions and to pay him, as to separate the question of the personal impressions to move forward in the finances of this State from the canals and their matter of contracting a fresh debt as a measure improvement or enlargement. Now, if gentlespecifically meeting at this time your approba- men wish to shorten the session of this Contion. If, when the report of the Finance Commit-vention, if they wish to proceed to business, tee should come in, it should seem practicable to at once, and to accomplish something, refer this give some relief to the measure, then I would say subject to the committee as reported by the Comwe could act intelligently and well upon it. mittee of Sixteen, and obtain from them an intelBut before we know anything of the subject, to ligent report upon the whole subject, and act upon seem to favor an enterprise of such high mag- it. If we are to have two committees on this nitude as this, is a departure from the wis-subject, if they are to come in here, it may be dom, and the moderation of our counsels which with conflicting reports, and we are to sit here has heretofore prevailed. But practically, Mr. during the dog days and discuss that, that is one President, supposing this measure passes. Sup-thing. If not, refer it to a single committee, unpose it is adopted by the Convention, are we re- prejudiced, - unbiased, uncommitted on this sublieved from any further parliamentary difficulties? ject, and let us have a report from that committee Instead of having a report from one committee on on all these details, and we can act intelligently. this comprehensive subject, which might be a ma- I would call the attention of the Convention to a jority and minority report, we would be embarass-provision of the rules which is meant to cover ed by reports of two committees, each perchance containing majority and minority views, and instead of any unity of purpose to be obtained by such a course, we are to be met at the threshold of this discussion by divided counsels. I trust the time has not yet come that any such unpleasant task would be forced upon the President of this Convention by the adoption of a measure which, however it may be discussed, has no other practical parliamentary meaning than this: That this body will instruct the President to give a committee to this special subject, for the enlargement of the canal, more favorable to it than to those opposed to the measure. That is the great point upon which the question now before this body rests, that it is under a great pressure and an anticipation in point of time, in point of advice and a full examination of the subject, under pretence of revising an article of the Constitution, (which, so far as the enlargement is concerned, is declared on the face of it to be a finality,) the inauguration of a new movement by which that enlargement shall be further prosecuted, and a fresh expense entailed upon the people. Mr. HATCH-I only desire to say in reply to gentlemen that they have taken a very erroneous view of the amendment that I have proposed. It really has not the importance they have attached to it. If gentlemen are disposed to force this on at this time as a test question in relation to the matter of the canals, it is no fault of mine. The amendment that I proposed is merely as to the care, management and improvement of the canals. It is a very simple proposition. this very subject. They will find that the committee recommend a committee of sixteen on the subject of finance; while the committee provided for by paragraph No. 10, is to consist of seven members. The object was to have the committee represent all interests, and be large enough to examine the whole subject in gross and in detail, and give to this Convention an intelligent and proper report of their conclusions. I hope the Convention will adopt the recommendation of the committee of sixteen. The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Hatch, and it was lost by the following vote: Ayes.-Messrs. Alvord, Andrews, Archer, Axtell, Baker, E. Brooks, E. P. Brooks, Case, Cheritree, Clinton, Corbett, Curtiss, C. C. Dwight, Ely, Farnum, Field, Folger, Fowler, Frank, Fuller, Gould, Hadley, Hand, Hatch, Huntington, Lee, Masten, McDonald, Merrill, C. E. Parker, Potter, Prosser, Reynolds, Rogers, Root, Silvester, Sherman, M. I. Townsend, Van Campen, Verplanck, Weed, Young.-42. Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Ballard, Barker, Barto, Beadle, Beals, Beckwith, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, E. A. Brown, W. C. Brown, Cassidy, Champlain, Chesebro, Church, Colahan, Comstock, Conger, Cooke, Daly, Develin, Duganne, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Endress, Ferry, Flagler, Francis, Garvin, Gerry, Graves, Greeley, Gross, Hale, Hammond, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Hutchins, Jarvis, Kernan, Kinney, Krum, Lapham, Larremore, Law, A. Law rence, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Livings ton, Loew, Lowrey, Ludington, Mattice, Merritt, | The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. Bell, as follows: No. 9. On the finances of the State, so far as the same shall relate to canals, the public debt and the trust fund. The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the second amendment offered by Mr. Bell: "No. 10. On taxation, the revenues and expenditures of the State, other than canals and salt springs, and restrictions on the power of the Legislature in respect thereto." The question being put upon the amendment, it was declared to be lost. Mr. ROBERTSON offered the following amendment to the 9th sub-division: To insert in the first line after the word finances" the words "and property," and after the word "State" to insert "included." The question being put upon the amendment, it was declared to be lost. Mr. FOLGER-Is my amendment now in order? The PRESIDENT No further amendment being offered, the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger], is now in order. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: "To strike out subdivision 9, relating to the canals, and also to strike out subdivision 10, and insert in lieu thereof the following: '10. On canals."" The PRESIDENT-The Chair does not understand that No. 10 has yet been reached. Mr. BELL-My object was, not to bring on the discussion which has taken place upon this subject, but it was simply to divide and arrange for the purpose of facilitating the purposes of this Convention. On looking at subdivision No. 9, I find it contains several 'distinct propositions, and however they may fail to harmonize in the end, they are subjects of distinct reports, and I think pertinent to be acted upon by this Convention, and by Committees of this Convention. It is the province of the Convention to harmonize and consider these reports, should they be discordant, which they may not be necessarily. The great evil, I think in our State government, has been that we have looked at things too Mr. FOLGER-Of course not sir, but in order much in confusion; for instance, extreme Canal to make my amendment intelligible, it was men have looked at the revenues of the canal and necessary to connect both of these sections; but a endeavored so to arrange legislation as to appro- division can be had upon the question and I call priate the entire amount to the enlargement, su- for a division that the question may be taken first perintendence, care, or to the damages of the on striking out No. 9. canal. The object I have in view, is to ascertain Mr. WEED---I wish to say a word upon this the capabilities of these canals and their necessary question. I deem it different from the one just care and superintendence, and of course any sug-passed upon by the Convention by the ayes and gestion which may be made upon their improve-noes. This, in the shape it is offered by ment and enlargement, and to separate that en- the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger,] cantirely from the question of the finances of the State; not be construed to embarrass in any way and when the report of that Committee shall have the President of this Convention in the appointcome in and have been considered, we can, it ment of the committee upon this subject. It seems to me, compare it with the finances to see makes Committees No. 9 and No. 10 conform to the whether we will have sufficient revenue, after sup-spirit of the other committees, as laid down by porting the government, after answering the the Committee of Sixteen. If the Convention will proper objects of the State, to undertake that work. The other subdivision I propose, is to divorce it entirely from the management of the canal and to ascertain the revenues of the canal and to see if we can in some way carry on these great public works without a resort to so large an amount of and we have to resort to taxation and ways and They are a cost to the State, taxation. It will be seen by the statistics we have means have to be provided for the support of these before us, notwithstanding we have derived large State prisons; but the mode of providing the ways amounts from the canals for the general fund, yet and means is not included in subdivision 9, as we have been obliged to levy very large amounts reported by the Committee. The common schools by taxation to sustain these canals; and I think, are of the same character, and the educational if I remember right, within the last twenty years, interests. Therefore I say, it seems to me that the nearly $14,000,000, have been expended upon the amendment of the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. canals from direct taxation. I hope this division Folger] harmonizes with the whole spirit of these will be made, not because I would here indicate committees, and leaves it, as it seems to me, the my purpose to enlarge the canals or not to enlarge subject should be left before this Convention. As the canals, but these amendments are simply with I look upon the duties of the gentlemen who shall reference to the proper division of the labors of be appointed to serve upon Committee No. 9, this Convention. My design is to add another without the canals, they have the great financial subdivision called No. 10, and still retain the pre-interests of this State in their charge. It is a sent No. 10, as No. 11, as reported from the Com- great question, how far the Constitution shall limit the power of the Legislature over the finan mittee of Sixteen. notice, every other financial subject and every other subject of State expenditure is referred to a separate and independent committee. The State prisons of this State, result in the expenditure of money. The question being put upon the amendment ces of the State. That power, with the question of Mr. Bell, it was declared to be lost. of taxation and the general questions of finance, |